I'm not sure what you are doing here trying to reason with that post'.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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I'm not sure what you are doing here trying to reason with that post'.
I can understand the show limitations. However some mistakes can't be forgiven. Important characters such as Willas, Arianne, Aegon Targeryan etc were left out even though they didn't actually needed an actor to fill them until they actually became important. That made the show extremely flimbsy with important regions being lead by people with no rights of leading that place in the first place (ex Dorne and the Reach). FFS if Charles was king and he died then the crown will not go to his wife Camilla, some sibling from Prince Philip side of the family or some girl his brother banged. That's what happened to the crownlands, the reach and Dorne
American producers shouldn't mess into medieval history. They really don't understand it.
American producers shouldn't mess into medieval history. They really don't understand it.
They just don't bother to because they know the audience wont even bother thinking about it.
The only thing that they do remotely well is Roman epics. Most errors found in those productions are usually little anachronisms, but the main depiction of Roman life, culture and political/military system tend to be correct.
But hey, Braveheart won an Oscar, so what do we know eh?
And the funny thing is that with a little bit of thought they could have easily gone away with it.
a- Put Arianne Martell into the picture. She's as volatile as Ellaria is and she's a Martell, daughter of Doran and heiress to Dorne.
b- CR is still producing gold + its still holding the red wedding hostages. That would make CR's invasion a bit less ridiculous.
c- FFS Willas or at least Garlan should exist. Olenna is brilliant but no one can realisticly think that an old lady whose not even a Tyrell from birth can lead a region with a 100k army.
d- Randyll Tarly cant be persuaded to bend the knee to the queen who just bomb the high septon to oblivion simply because Danny might be 'evil'. That really doesn't make sense at all.
e- Euron should be potrayed as the evil and volatile man he is (ie worse then Ramsey). Not as a caricature of Jack Sparrow.
Yeah still not feeling this cartoon version of Euron. Proper dark and sinister buzz off him in AFFC, yet here we're left with "big cock" and "finger up the bum" quips.
They improvise the story around the actors they have to showcase their range/please the audience with more screentime for fan favourites, instead of having a consistent vision of the show and cast actors to fulfill specific roles. That is about the only explanation why Ellaria and Olenna last this long into the story.
Lena Headey in the show isn't Cersei Lannister. She's playing herself, or the version of Cersei that is closest to her personality, and that's fine, but by moulding her character that way they also deviated from the source too much and cant make Jaime's alienation works anymore, hence what we are seeing now. That's just an instance of writing themselves into a corner because of prioritising actors over story.
Lena Headey in the show isn't Cersei Lannister. She's playing herself, or the version of Cersei that is closest to her personality, and that's fine, but by moulding her character that way they also deviated from the source too much and cant make Jaime's alienation works anymore, hence what we are seeing now. That's just an instance of writing themselves into a corner because of prioritising actors over story.
Yep. He's trying to surpass even the Sandsnakes' level of idiocy, it's exasperating.
Ellaria was never a favourite though...she's part of the hated Dorne storyline, and was kept around because in killing Myrcella, the Lannisters had motivation to want revenge against her.
Olenna's role in the books is more minor than in the show, but she still plays a fairly massive role (killing Joffrey) and I think the show have actually done very well in showing us more of a very entertaining character without going into overkill and having her appear all the time.
I read in one of the threads that the producers kept her around because they are a fan of the actress.
Indira Varma's a reasonably sized name to be fair, and I guess they felt it made sense to keep her around after she'd been introduced alongside Oberyn in Season 4. A recognisable face and all that. Problem was they completely changed her (admittedly fairly minor) book character to suit the needs of the show.
Ellaria was kept around because D&D are fans of her, they admitted to changing the story to give her a bigger role.
I actually don't have a problem with Olenna, I think the actress did justice to her character, but devoting that much time on her character further eats into the very limited time left on the show to tie up all loose ends. She served her usefulness once the Purple Wedding happened.
Book character Ellaria sand actually persuades the sand snakes to lay down their arms.
The Jon meets Dany scene was fantastic.
Im happy that the Dorne fiasco is over and done with, the payoff not quite making the journey worthwhile but at least that chapter is closed.
And Bran.......jesus he is just terrible. Terribly written (reminding Sansa of Ramsey and just chilling under the Weirwood tree) and acted, and probably the one main character that could have done with recasting on the grounds he looks so different from casting originally.
I thought it was well done, the awkwardness of it, the way some of it seemed forced as they were feeling each other out, Jon trying to delicately put forward his position to not offend Dany but at the same time maintain his independence of action and convince her to help him, Jon knowing one wrong word and he is dead, great stuff.
Yeah its always bemused/frustrated me that the writers of the TV show can balls up so many things directly from the source material (Jons defection to Mance Rayder, Robb/Talisa,Tywins death and Dorne amongst others) and yet come up with fantastic stuff like Hardhome and the Jon/Dany scene from this episode without it being in the books.
The Bran stuff is a bit harsh. None of the Stark kid can act besides Maisie Williams, and it's a hard role to play well. Very little in Bran's POV in the books to delve into his facial expressions and what not (although iirc none of the main cast actually bothered reading the books, Seth Meyers asked them at Comic Con and I think only a couple answered they did)
I need a good map of Westeros.
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This is a simpler one.
So from Tyrion's last POV in AGoT, it takes the Lannister host under Tywin days from Green Fork to the Crossroad Inn where he was taken on a 'death march' that leaves hundreds dead. It's reasonable to assume therefore that a host unopposed would still need 2-3 weeks, most likely more, at a good pace to traverse to distance from the Rock to Highgarden.
So from Tyrion's last POV in AGoT, it takes the Lannister host under Tywin days from Green Fork to the Crossroad Inn where he was taken on a 'death march' that leaves hundreds dead. It's reasonable to assume therefore that a host unopposed would still need 2-3 weeks, most likely more, at a good pace to traverse to distance from the Rock to Highgarden.
It is also very reasonable to assume that there had been 2-3 weeks between the events of the second and the third episode. In fact, that is pretty much certain.This is a simpler one.
So from Tyrion's last POV in AGoT, it takes the Lannister host under Tywin days from Green Fork to the Crossroad Inn where he was taken on a 'death march' that leaves hundreds dead. It's reasonable to assume therefore that a host unopposed would still need 2-3 weeks, most likely more, at a good pace to traverse to distance from the Rock to Highgarden.
And miraculously, ravens and dragon wings cant beat a marching host.
The post episode commentary goes along the line of 'we didnt have a budget to show a battle against the Tyrell's army but they lost because they are bad at fighting'. So there was an actual battle taking place along the way in addition to the siege.
Daenerys isn't using her dragons yet, and the creepy Maester has stolen Varys' little birds, which makes Daenerys quite a bit in the dark. In addition, the plan to send the Unsullied into Casterly Rock was already in plan, and we can assume that it wasn't just Lord Tarly who betrayed Olenna, but also other Reach lords. Meaning that her being betrayed by her most powerful bannerman (Arbor doesn't exist in the show), kept her in the dark until it was too late to send a raven for help.
There is of course, also the possibility that the Lannisters went by boats in Highgarden, making the entire journey only a few days instead of a couple of weeks, and making it totally secret until they reached Highgarden.
Of course, they have a teleporting ironborn fleet after all.
Don't Lannisters have a fleet of their own too? I know that Victarion (Euron in the show) burned it almost 2 decades back, but they have surely rebuild it.
You know what you are doing is reverse-reasoning right?
The two idiots said there was a battle between the Tyrell host and the Lannister, so clearly all of the Reach lords did not defect. So no survivors make it out of the battle, no castle along the way alarmed Higharden of an approaching host?
And going by ship, what ship? Casterly Rock is next to Lannisport, but you need a fleet to get that many men. Look at the map. Euron was last seen at KL before the attack on the Unsullied's fleet. From KL to Casterly Rock he'd need to bring his ship all the way South past the Dornish shore, then go North again to Lannisport, pick up the army, drop them at Oldtown, which were still at least a few days march away from Higharden at the heart of the Reach, then swing back again to ambush the Unsullied, who in Ep1 set sail at the same time with the Power Puff girls.
They are where they are because of plot convenience and nothing more.
He burned it 8 years back during the sack of Lannisport. In the books Tywin would likely have rebuilt some but Cersei in AFFC acknowledged that she had no strength at sea following Battle of Blackwater and ordered the new dromonds built. Merchant ships, pleasure barges and trade cogs may suffice to carry the army but it'll leave them extremely vulnerable to an enemy fleet, which the Tyrells had.
Anyway, none of them were mentioned in the show so it's just inventing excuse.
Not all, but we know for a fact that the biggest bannerman has betrayed them, and that man happens also to be the greatest general in Westeros. With Tyrells being decimated, it isn't an outlandish claim to say that many other powerful lords might have joined Tarly or stay neutral. It isn't even a betrayal, Reach Lords have sworn fealty also to the crown. Even on Robert's rebellion there were plenty of bannermen of him or Arryn that chose neutrality.
Lannisters have a fleet of their own (as had the crown). It isn't as big as that of Ironborn or Arbor, but it could have been big enough to send eight thousands troops or so from Lannisport to Highgarden. Manderley built a fleet of 50 war ships within a year, we can assume that Lannisters in peace times had 20-30 big warships (said by Martin), so combined with the ships they might have built during the war, the ships of their bannermen and the trade ships, they might have easily managed to send their troops to Highgarden via the sea.
Highgarden was lost the moment Tarly chose to follow the Lannisters. No command, army divided and facing the two most capable commanders in Westeros.
A war galley can man roughly 80-100 on boards including rowers, a dromond around 200-250 depending.
Forgive me for being skeptical, but I somehow doubt Tywin Lannister maintain a fleet of over 100 ships in the show, considering how broke they are (gold mines ran dry lololol). Manderly also didn't built 50 ships btw, number is closer to about 25-30 war galleys (Davos saw about 12 in the dock, and Manderly said he had more hidden).
The issue being discussed here is not whether the Tyrells can win against a combined Lannister/defection force, but whether it could be possible for the castle to fall before Dany catch news of it and relieve them. It's been amply demonstrated that it's not, and if it is then it is a series of the most far-fetched, lucky incident one after another in favour of the Lannisters for that to happen. I don't think that good storytelling.
Forgive me for being skeptical, but I somehow doubt Tywin Lannister maintain a fleet of over 100 ships in the show, considering how broke they are (gold mines ran dry lololol). Manderly also didn't built 50 ships btw, number is closer to about 25-30 war galleys (Davos saw about 12 in the dock, and Manderly said he had more hidden).
The issue being discussed here is not whether the Tyrells can win against a combined Lannister/defection force, but whether it could be possible for the castle to fall before Dany catch news of it and relieve them. It's been amply demonstrated that it's not, and if it is then it is a series of the most far-fetched, lucky incident one after another in favour of the Lannisters for that to happen. I don't think that good storytelling.
So 200 for ship, means that 40 ships would be enough to send 8k Lannister troops to Highgarden. Lannisters have a fleet of 20-30 warships (no idea what types of warships) and almost certainly, a large fleet of trading ships. I don't see a reason why they couldn't use them to reach Highgarden fast.
Davos sees 23 ships, and Manderley claims that he has as many as those in some other place, which means that Manderleys have made a fleet of around 50 large war ships within a year.
It could have been possible, especially with Tyrells being already dead (Loras and Mace, no Willas and Garlan in the show), and with the greatest Reach commander being on the other side. There might have been other things, like the majority of Tyrells soldiers already being on march for Kingslanding (that was the plan, right?). We saw already how easily Winterfell and Riverrun fall when there were no Starks and Tully commanders there. Heck, we saw Jaime getting Riverrun within a single night despite that it was hold by an extremely capable commander (something that Tyrells didn't have).
The point is, Highgarden could have fallen within a single day, and we saw that Daenerys hasn't decided yet to use the dragons (she will do it on next battle considering that her army is broken now). The show decided to not go into details because the season has just 7 episodes, and we will have at least a big battle on it (Daenerys/Drogon and Dothraki vs Lannisters) and surely something is going to happen in the north. So for timing and budget reasons, they skipped the details, but it was totally possible that Lannisters and Tarlys could have taken Tyrells by surprise and get Highgarden fast.
The most hilarious part is how Cersei persuaded the iron bank to give it a second chance simply because Danny disrupted slave trade. The IB is from Braavos a city founded by escaped slaves who escaped the Valyrian empire wrath. They absolutely hate slavery.
The funny thing is that they could have easily turned it around and produced a perfectly sound script with the same results. Danny is of Valyrian descend and she also has dragons. Unlike most of the Targs including Aegon she's already shown to have a special interest in Essos. That would scare the crap out of the Braavosi.
The funny thing is that they could have easily turned it around and produced a perfectly sound script with the same results. Danny is of Valyrian descend and she also has dragons. Unlike most of the Targs including Aegon she's already shown to have a special interest in Essos. That would scare the crap out of the Braavosi.
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One Army surprising another is not new to the series.
Rob was able to surprise one of the Lannister armies and achieve a victory.
Stannis surprised the Wildlings on the Wildling side of the wall.
Littlefinger moved the Vale army into the North without the Bolton's catching wind of it.
During Blackwater in addition to the shock of Dragonfire, an army showed up that Stannis did not expect.
During Dany's assault on the one slaver city the Dothraki were able to break in using surprise. Here the slavers were killing former slaves at the gate, when suddenly from an unexpected direction the Dothraki come charging in.
Theon's small force sneaking up on Winterfell. Granted a smaller force thus easier to escape detection.
And if we want to go there, there is a whole history of warfare where tactical, operational or strategic surprise was achieved by armies. Even in cases where it took a fair bit of luck.
Can't remember if it is just a book thing or if it ever got mentioned in the show, but I remember in the books a couple of occasions where the attacking army had archers read to kill any crows sent out by the defenders.
Rob was able to surprise one of the Lannister armies and achieve a victory.
Stannis surprised the Wildlings on the Wildling side of the wall.
Littlefinger moved the Vale army into the North without the Bolton's catching wind of it.
During Blackwater in addition to the shock of Dragonfire, an army showed up that Stannis did not expect.
During Dany's assault on the one slaver city the Dothraki were able to break in using surprise. Here the slavers were killing former slaves at the gate, when suddenly from an unexpected direction the Dothraki come charging in.
Theon's small force sneaking up on Winterfell. Granted a smaller force thus easier to escape detection.
And if we want to go there, there is a whole history of warfare where tactical, operational or strategic surprise was achieved by armies. Even in cases where it took a fair bit of luck.
Can't remember if it is just a book thing or if it ever got mentioned in the show, but I remember in the books a couple of occasions where the attacking army had archers read to kill any crows sent out by the defenders.
Exactly. Tywin surprising Stannis was far more unbelievable than Jaime (and Tarly) surprising Olenna. The distance was larger from where Tywin was to reach KL than the distance from Rock to Highgarden, Stannis was a better commander than Olenna and Dragonstone was much nearer KL than to Highgarden (to send reinforcements). But back then, people said it was great while now is cool to complain.
It has happened in the show too. I think Starks were killing ravens send for Frey before they became allies.
This is a fair critique (from book readers) and I didn't like it happening this way too, but the thing is that this isn't the book, and it hasn't ever mentioned in the show that Braavosi hate slavers. For all we know, in the show's universe, they might be just like the other Essos cities who deal on slaves. I don't like it, but from the beginning it has been clear that the details will change and the show isn't bound to political situation of the books. It has to stick by its own rules, not necessarily by the rules of the books.
As you can see from the other threads, none who haven't read the books have any complaint about this. We would have preferred Braavosi disliking Danny because she brought back the dragons (and they very likely caused the Doom of Valyria to destroy Dragons in the first place), but in the show they might be slavers and there is nothing wrong with that.
This part is just so so so wrong.
The geography is clear, Tywin caught wind of Renly's death and Stannis approach and started on the Kingsroad towards KL with all haste. He met with the Tyrell's forces at Bitterbridge, got on barges and sailed through the Mander before emerging at the King's Wood. Stannis was taken unaware because his outriders and scouts were killed by Tyrion's mountain clansmen.
Everything was laid out in details, by account of the characters themselves (Robb Stark and Garland Tyrell). We don't have to reach to believe it.
For a book reader, you were clearly not paying attention.
Geez, you are annoying. Anyway, for the bold part):
1) Arbor doesn't exist on the show, or at the very least, it hasn't ever mentioned that they have a fleet. So, there is no Redwynes fleet, while Lannisters might have one (being the richest and most powerful house in the seven kingdoms). At this stage, mentioning Redwynes is as pointless as asking why Dorne isn't supporting Aegon and why Varys is helping Danny instead of Aegon.
2) http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ships
3) Who cares about real war sieges? In the show it has happened several times already.
- Theon gets Winterfell within a day.
- Ramsey gets Winterfell within a day.
- Stannis would have got KL within a single night if it wasn't for reinforcements arriving exactly at time.
- Jaime gets Riverrun within a single night.
- Jon gets Winterfell within a day.
But yep, Jaime and Tarly getting Highgarden within a day is totally impossible.
Point is, Stannis was a highly regarded battle commander, none betrayed him, Dragonstone was very near KL (far nearer than to Highgarden, so information should have been much easier achieved) and Lannister forces' distance to KL was greater than the distance of Rock to Highgarden. Yet he was surprised and defeated from Tywin.
Here we have Olenna as the last Tyrell who has absolutely no military power, betrayed from her main bannerman who most likely would have been in command of Reach forces now with Mace and Loras dead, and with the distance from Rock to Highgarden not being that great. We don't even know if it was a siege, for all we know they might have already defeated the main part of Tyrell forces when they showed the siege, or Tarly might have betrayed her right in the last moment.
Point is:
- it doesn't matter how it happened for the endgame, and they needed to make this fast because the budget and time should go towards Danny vs Lannisters and Jon vs The Others.
- it was totally possible within the show's rules for this to have happened.
- similar things have happened before both in the show and in the books.
For a show watcher, you are extremely annoying. I would recommend to stop torturing yourself and others for a show you clearly don't enjoy. Just stop watching it and everything will be better.
1) Arbor doesn't exist on the show, or at the very least, it hasn't ever mentioned that they have a fleet. So, there is no Redwynes fleet, while Lannisters might have one (being the richest and most powerful house in the seven kingdoms). At this stage, mentioning Redwynes is as pointless as asking why Dorne isn't supporting Aegon and why Varys is helping Danny instead of Aegon.
2) http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ships
3) Who cares about real war sieges? In the show it has happened several times already.
- Theon gets Winterfell within a day.
- Ramsey gets Winterfell within a day.
- Stannis would have got KL within a single night if it wasn't for reinforcements arriving exactly at time.
- Jaime gets Riverrun within a single night.
- Jon gets Winterfell within a day.
But yep, Jaime and Tarly getting Highgarden within a day is totally impossible.
Point is, Stannis was a highly regarded battle commander, none betrayed him, Dragonstone was very near KL (far nearer than to Highgarden, so information should have been much easier achieved) and Lannister forces' distance to KL was greater than the distance of Rock to Highgarden. Yet he was surprised and defeated from Tywin.
Here we have Olenna as the last Tyrell who has absolutely no military power, betrayed from her main bannerman who most likely would have been in command of Reach forces now with Mace and Loras dead, and with the distance from Rock to Highgarden not being that great. We don't even know if it was a siege, for all we know they might have already defeated the main part of Tyrell forces when they showed the siege, or Tarly might have betrayed her right in the last moment.
Point is:
- it doesn't matter how it happened for the endgame, and they needed to make this fast because the budget and time should go towards Danny vs Lannisters and Jon vs The Others.
- it was totally possible within the show's rules for this to have happened.
- similar things have happened before both in the show and in the books.
For a show watcher, you are extremely annoying. I would recommend to stop torturing yourself and others for a show you clearly don't enjoy. Just stop watching it and everything will be better.
Relevant passage from ADwD. Wiki is wrong.
Existence of a Lannister's fleet was not mentioned at any point in the show. You can infer all you want. They are as real as the Redwyne's fleet.
The show has a penchant for unrealistic warfare depiction. Who knew?
Stannis went to KL from Storm's End where he killed Renly and got his troops, not from Dragonstone. The distance is about equal to where Tywin's host was situated at Harrenhal, which moved faster given the aid of the Tyrells. Look at the maps above.
I will continue to watch and post as I please, feel free to ignore me if you want, thanks for your advice.
'A score' is 20
Be prepared for weeks of denial that a score is 20.
We are both wrong then. It remains unspecified.