Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

JustAFan said:
She was always a short term solution for the Boltons. For the immediate time being she gives the Boltons a link to the Starks via the marriage, which brings some of the other houses of the north in line. Then as soon as she would have produced an heir, they would have had no use for her anymore and she would have been killed or shipped back to Kings Landing to face the wrath of Cersei. The Lannister's with other pressing issues, might not have minded as the as the long term solution meant she was taken out.
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She stands accused of regicide and still in marriage with Tyrion (which, to be fair, proven to be un-consummated, can be set aside by the High Septon or a Council of Faith), it's quite a leap of faith to believe Cersei would allow that to happen.

And if we suspend our disbelief and accept that logic, we are still left with the Littlefinger problem. He stands to gain nothing by giving her to the Boltons. As soon as Ramsay got a child on her, she'd be killed, and what would he do then? The Boltons strengthen their grip on the North, they would have no need of Petyr Baelish. The whole point of the Dark Sansa plot in the books is that he schemes to make her the Lady of Winterfell, and thus rule the North via proxy, since Sansa would be with Harry the Heir in the Vale. Baelish is only Lord Protector of the Vale as long as Sweetrobin lives, and for his plans to come to fruition the boy must die. So if he dies and Sansa is given away for free, what then?
 
harshad said:
Book reader in disguise?
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Or he's read it online somewhere. The only time the show ever alluded to hair colour being an important trait is in season one; it'd genuinely surprise me if any show-watcher kept that in mind 7 years on. I could be wrong though, and he could be extremely on the ball.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Or he's read it online somewhere. The only time the show ever alluded to hair colour being an important trait is in season one; it'd genuinely surprise me if any show-watcher kept that in mind 7 years on. I could be wrong though, and he could be extremely on the ball.
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To be fair, that's a primary cause of finding out if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were incestual offsprings.
 
fishfingers15 said:
To be fair, that's a primary cause of finding out if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were incestual offsprings.
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Which I mention, yeah. I'm just saying, it'd be quite impressive if he kept that fact in mind seven seasons later and has managed to formulate the theory that Varys is a secret Targ from it. I certainly wouldn't have made such a connection if I was a show-only viewer.
 
fishfingers15 said:
To be fair, that's a primary cause of finding out if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were incestual offsprings.
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Yeah Jon Arryn uncovered the hair thing didn't he with the help of a book given to him by a maester right?

Varys probably has known all along the kids were not Roberts, what with all his little spies running around. It would be a huge failure for him if that fact had slipped past his spy network.
 
JustAFan said:
Yeah Jon Arryn uncovered the hair thing didn't he with the help of a book given to him by a maester right?

Varys probably has known all along the kids were not Roberts, what with all his little spies running around. It would be a huge failure for him if that fact had slipped past his spy network.
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Well, that has nothing to do with Varys shaving his head though, as he would have done it prior to Jon Arryn finding the hair logic
 
fishfingers15 said:
To be fair, that's a primary cause of finding out if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were incestual offsprings.
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Coupled with locating Robert's bastard children and their hair and the book which Pycelle gave him which had the lineage of the big houses along with the description of the children.
 
Cheesy said:
I still think they'll do his eventual alienation from Cersei but it's lost all momentum considering it should've really happened the moment he arrives back at King's Landing. Being honest...I don't think the haircut helped his whole look either, as daft as it sounds. Best character in the books but to be honest a fair few characters have stagnated in the show.
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Nothing daft about it. The look of a character is very important - ask Laurence Olivier.

It's clear from the books that Martin had plans for Jaime - his mutilation and its aftermath were a kind of rebirth intended to take the character in a completely different direction.

But since they lopped off his hand, the tv show hasn't known what to do with him. The greatest swordsman in Westeros can no longer use a sword, and has to pay others to do his fighting. The most unpredictable and threatening of characters now spends his time in pointless conversations.

I suppose they didn't have time to develop a 'new' Jaime, but wanted to hold on to one of the shows best characters, so turning him into Cersei's right hand man was their way of keeping him in the loop. But when Jaime said to Brienne in the enemy camp that 'he was that hand' he was speaking the truth, as the show has found out.
 
Will Absolute said:
Nothing daft about it. The look of a character is very important - ask Laurence Olivier.

It's clear from the books that Martin had plans for Jaime - his mutilation and its aftermath were a kind of rebirth intended to take the character in a completely different direction.

But since they lopped off his hand, the tv show hasn't known what to do with him. The greatest swordsman in Westeros can no longer use a sword, and has to pay others to do his fighting. The most unpredictable and threatening of characters now spends his time in pointless conversations.

I suppose they didn't have time to develop a 'new' Jaime, but wanted to hold on to one of the shows best characters, so turning him into Cersei's right hand man was their way of keeping him in the loop. But when Jaime said to Brienne in the enemy camp that 'he was that hand' he was speaking the truth, as the show has found out.
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Having Jaime in a more diplomatic role isn't necessarily the problem - it's central to his AFFC arc in that with his sword hand gone, he's got to start using his brains instead of his brawn.

The problem is, of course, that they kind of completely stalled his book arc by sending him to Dorne instead. Ideally the moment he arrives back in KL should be when his alienation from Cersei begins, but we're three seasons on from that and he's still loyally by her side. And it's a bit problematic when a character that's supposed to be having a redemption/humanising arc of sorts is propping up an insane and delusional murderer.
 
Cheesy said:
Having Jaime in a more diplomatic role isn't necessarily the problem - it's central to his AFFC arc in that with his sword hand gone, he's got to start using his brains instead of his brawn.

The problem is, of course, that they kind of completely stalled his book arc by sending him to Dorne instead. Ideally the moment he arrives back in KL should be when his alienation from Cersei begins, but we're three seasons on from that and he's still loyally by her side. And it's a bit problematic when a character that's supposed to be having a redemption/humanising arc of sorts is propping up an insane and delusional murderer.
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Yep. I suspect Jaime's redemption is delayed but will eventually come to pass. He's not going to see eye to eye with Cersei forever.

The problem is he looks like a douche in the meantime, and it renders the whole 'passing through the fire and coming out a new man' idea in the book null and void. Instead of a moral awakening, the loss of his hand now becomes an unfortunate incident with no consequences beyond neutering him as a fighting man. Which doesn't help the show.
 
The defining moment for Jaime's relationship with Cersei was when he burned her letter in ADwD, that's when he saw her finally for what she was. The show already bungled that and according to the leaked script, the alienation wont be happening anytime soon.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
The defining moment for Jaime's relationship with Cersei was when he burned her letter in ADwD, that's when he saw her finally for what she was. The show already bungled that and according to the leaked script, the alienation wont be happening anytime soon.
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Yeah, it's a perfectly done arc really - initial alienation when he returns home, more deep-seated after Tyrion's reveal, and then confirmed once he's away at Riverrun and speaks to Lancel etc. It's also partly problematic because show Cersei does seem to at least sort of love her family, whereas in the books she's self-obsessed and pretty much only is interested in Jaime cause she sees him as the male version of herself.
 
Cheesy said:
Organic Potatoes figured out the Varys is a secret Targaryen theory!
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harshad said:
Book reader in disguise?
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DWelbz19 said:
Or he's read it online somewhere. The only time the show ever alluded to hair colour being an important trait is in season one; it'd genuinely surprise me if any show-watcher kept that in mind 7 years on. I could be wrong though, and he could be extremely on the ball.
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If its based on hair colour alone its a flawed theory.

Silver hair isn't just a Targaryen trait, its a High Valyrian trait. Others with high Valyrian blood like Ashara Dayne was notably described having the same high Valyrian silver hair and purple eyes as the Targs.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If its based on hair colour alone its a flawed theory.

Silver hair isn't just a Targaryen trait, its a High Valyrian trait. Others with high Valyrian blood like Ashara Dayne was notably described having the same high Valyrian silver hair and purple eyes as the Targs.
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Targs colouring arent dominant always anyway, Brynden Rivers, Jon etc...

It's one of the sillier theory. Varys is an eunuch, eunuchs don't have hair. The fAegon = Illyrio's son theory, however....
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Targs colouring arent dominant always anyway, Brynden Rivers, Jon etc...

It's one of the sillier theory. Varys is an eunuch, eunuchs don't have hair. The fAegon = Illyrio's son theory, however....
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Good point,

I still have a feeling young Griff is descended from the Blackfyres. GRRM developed a lot of background on them in Dunk and Egg so would make sense to me
 
Cheesy said:
Having Jaime in a more diplomatic role isn't necessarily the problem - it's central to his AFFC arc in that with his sword hand gone, he's got to start using his brains instead of his brawn.

The problem is, of course, that they kind of completely stalled his book arc by sending him to Dorne instead. Ideally the moment he arrives back in KL should be when his alienation from Cersei begins, but we're three seasons on from that and he's still loyally by her side. And it's a bit problematic when a character that's supposed to be having a redemption/humanising arc of sorts is propping up an insane and delusional murderer.
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Indeed. In the books, he had given up on Cersei. When Cersei calls him to return to KG to help her (when she is jailed by ISIS), he just laughs and doesn't even think about returning IIRC. While here, he is still very loyal to her which doesn't make sense.

Jaime was one of my favorite characters but like with Stannis, they had totally missed his character in the show. He's completely different to Jaime of books since the fourth season.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If its based on hair colour alone its a flawed theory.

Silver hair isn't just a Targaryen trait, its a High Valyrian trait. Others with high Valyrian blood like Ashara Dayne was notably described having the same high Valyrian silver hair and purple eyes as the Targs.
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I thought that Ashara had black hairs. I probably missed something.
oneniltothearsenal said:
Good point,

I still have a feeling young Griff is descended from the Blackfyres. GRRM developed a lot of background on them in Dunk and Egg so would make sense to me
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With him getting cut from the show (aka, not very important for the end game), is is extremely possible.

I think though, that we won't ever know it. GRRM just won't tell us if he is a Targ or a Blackfyre, with both options being possible when the dragon eats him.
 
fishfingers15 said:
The series and the books are so divorced from each other and have forked out. Is GoT trying to move Danaerys to Winterfell?
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I still think they're going by broad strokes. Tyrion taking Casterly Rock in the books but being outfoxed with the Lannisters taking Highgarden is something I can see happening. Likewise, we'll probably see Jon and Daenerys perhaps clash whenever they first meet. The route to getting there or the context surrounding it will be very different though.
 
Cheesy said:
I still think they're going by broad strokes. Tyrion taking Casterly Rock in the books but being outfoxed with the Lannisters taking Highgarden is something I can see happening. Likewise, we'll probably see Jon and Daenerys perhaps clash whenever they first meet. The route to getting there or the context surrounding it will be very different though.
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The Ironborn under Euron is more likely to be the ones taking Highgarden in the books, but I'm not sold. The Lannister host were melting away in the Riverlands last we saw in ADwD, and while the Ironborns have taken the Four Shields and threatening Oldtown and the Arbor, they don't have enough men to take Higharden. Willas and Garland Tyrell between them, in the words of Loras, 'can raise 10 thousand men in a fortnight, and double that in a moon's turn', that's on foot, with a great amount of armored horses, which the Ironborn dont have. They will cut Euron's host to pieces if they lay siege to Highgarden.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
The Ironborn under Euron is more likely to be the ones taking Highgarden in the books, but I'm not sold. The Lannister host were melting away in the Riverlands last we saw in ADwD, and while the Ironborns have taken the Four Shields and threatening Oldtown and the Arbor, they don't have enough men to take Higharden. Willas and Garland Tyrell between them, in the words of Loras, 'can raise 10 thousand men in a fortnight, and double that in a moon's turn', that's on foot, with a great amount of armored horses, which the Ironborn dont have. They will cut Euron's host to pieces if they lay siege to Highgarden.
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Book Euron's been pretty heavily associated with magic though and it's been implied he's very dangerous. It's quite possible he'll lay siege to Oldtown first, wreck havoc there, and perhaps sow dissension with the Reach to the point where the Tyrells are seen as prioritising their ambitions in KL over the safety of their region. If Aegon looks likely to take KL as well, they'll also need to commit troops to the defence of the capital, meaning they'll have to split their army.

It won't go down like this as such but I could see them taking a similar type of path. The ultimate war for the throne may be more between Dany and Aegon with the depleted Lannisters playing some sort of part. Difference is, of course, that Jaime's already alienated from Cersei in the books and so probably won't be commanding her armies.
 
Cheesy said:
Book Euron's been pretty heavily associated with magic though and it's been implied he's very dangerous. It's quite possible he'll lay siege to Oldtown first, wreck havoc there, and perhaps sow dissension with the Reach to the point where the Tyrells are seen as prioritising their ambitions in KL over the safety of their region. If Aegon looks likely to take KL as well, they'll also need to commit troops to the defence of the capital, meaning they'll have to split their army.

It won't go down like this as such but I could see them taking a similar type of path. The ultimate war for the throne may be more between Dany and Aegon with the depleted Lannisters playing some sort of part. Difference is, of course, that Jaime's already alienated from Cersei in the books and so probably won't be commanding her armies.
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Martin doesn't play magic with the logistics of warfare. Medieval warlords are extremely protective of their base of supply, as evidenced by Renly leaving Mace and a strong host at Highgarden or a large garrison in Storm's End in ACoK. Even with the Iron Fleet off at Moat Cailin, hundreds of ships were still left to Balon, as evidenced by them gathering quickly at Old Wyk for the Kingsmoot.

The more likely scenario in the book is with Kevan dead, Cersei will piss off the Reach and Mace Tyrell saw to it that his little Margaery marries Aegon, annulling her marriage with Tommen on the ground that it was never consummated, once he saw the Golden Company winning.

Sieging Oldtown is also harder than it sounds, The Hightower and the Citadel are massive stone structures, impervious to a degree to siege machines. The Ironborn will have to starve them out, which wont make a pretty sight when they are met with the wall on one side and a Tyrell's host on the other. Garland Tyrell is depicted as a seasoned, level headed batlle commander, he wont be a fool to scatter his forces like Edmure Tully did.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Martin doesn't play magic with the logistics of warfare. Medieval warlords are extremely protective of their base of supply, as evidenced by Renly leaving Mace and a strong host at Highgarden or a large garrison in Storm's End in ACoK. Even with the Iron Fleet off at Moat Cailin, hundreds of ships were still left to Balon, as evidenced by them gathering quickly at Old Wyk for the Kingsmoot.

The more likely scenario in the book is with Kevan dead, Cersei will piss off the Reach and Mace Tyrell saw to it that his little Margaery marries Aegon, annulling her marriage with Tommen on the ground that it was never consummated, once he saw the Golden Company winning.

Sieging Oldtown is also harder than it sounds, The Hightower and the Citadel are massive stone structures, impervious to a degree to siege machines. The Ironborn will have to starve them out, which wont make a pretty sight when they are met with the wall on one side and a Tyrell's host on the other. Garland Tyrell is depicted as a seasoned, level headed batlle commander, he wont be a fool to scatter his forces like Edmure Tully did.
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Err...he had Renly straight-up killed by a shadow demon. We don't fully know how strong or capable book Euron is yet but if he's properly connected with magic in some way it's not a ridiculous suggestion to say he'll take parts of the Reach easier than expected.

In the books Aegon's already set to be marrying Arianne anyway. The Tyrells fully turning on the Lannisters seem likely though.
 
Cheesy said:
Err...he had Renly straight-up killed by a shadow demon. We don't fully know how strong or capable book Euron is yet but if he's properly connected with magic in some way it's not a ridiculous suggestion to say he'll take parts of the Reach easier than expected.

In the books Aegon's already set to be marrying Arianne anyway. The Tyrells fully turning on the Lannisters seem likely though.
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1) The logistics of warfare. It makes sense to kill Renly because his bannermen would have no choice but to turn to the last Baratheon, which they did. Euron's magic is limited to Dragonbinder and possibly Balon's death, neither feat seems to avail himself much against a great army. He still had to rely on Vic's Iron Fleet to do the butcher's work on the Four Shields.
2) Targs practice polygamy. Mace Tyrell was a Targaryen's loyalist. As long as his daughter is queen, he doesnt care. I'm not fully convinced Arianne will marry Aegon either, but that's by the by.
 
I can't see Tyrion being as stupid in the books as he has been for the past 2 seasons.
 
Iron Bank of Braavos and slave trade. Apart from that, not a lot of hate for that episode. Jaime Lannister is a great warrior but the show is making Tyrion Lannister look like a fool. Wars may not exactly be as easy as the show portrays but I guess they have to move along now, especially if they need to turn Cersei Lannister to consider the dead army as the enemy by the end of this season.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Iron Bank of Braavos and slave trade. Apart from that, not a lot of hate for that episode. Jaime Lannister is a great warrior but the show is making Tyrion Lannister look like a fool. Wars may not exactly be as easy as the show portrays but I guess they have to move along now, especially if they need to turn Cersei Lannister to consider the dead army as the enemy by the end of this season.
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I'm actually pleasantly surprised at the Dany-Jon scene. They had enough sense to make her insisting on him bending the knee instead of 'oh, you are KitN, alrighty then', which show folks seem to want. It went relatively well until the taking of Highgarden and burning of Grey's Worm fleet. From the timeline, Grey Worm departed the same time as the Sand Snakes, so apparently Euron had enough time to ambush Asha's fleet, bring Ellaria back to KL, then swing back to take GW's fleet just as they were finished taking CL.

The writing at this point is comic book level, deus ex machina and retcon whenever they see fit.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If its based on hair colour alone its a flawed theory.

Silver hair isn't just a Targaryen trait, its a High Valyrian trait. Others with high Valyrian blood like Ashara Dayne was notably described having the same high Valyrian silver hair and purple eyes as the Targs.
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It was based on a study of historic children produced by baratheons and Lannisters and how the Baratheon gene for dark hair always won out over the Lannister blond.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Iron Bank of Braavos and slave trade. Apart from that, not a lot of hate for that episode. Jaime Lannister is a great warrior but the show is making Tyrion Lannister look like a fool. Wars may not exactly be as easy as the show portrays but I guess they have to move along now, especially if they need to turn Cersei Lannister to consider the dead army as the enemy by the end of this season.
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One avenue now open is that while Jon assumed Cersei would be too busy in the south, she can now actually turn her eyes towards the North and move to bring it back into the fold. So you could end up with her having an army in the north when the army of the undead comes rumbling through. I would guess she would not lead it, perhaps have Jaime at the lead and then they could have him convinced that perhaps killing a bunch of Starks and their bannermen is probably a bad idea. Only with a little more to the story than that.
 
Also this Highgarden castle easily being taken is a comedy. The castle has three rings of white stone walls, with a labyrinth between the outer and inner walls to slow down invaders. One of the few castles that have been built over and over with towers from the age of heroes to the new ages. It is well provisioned and with Tyrells wanting revenge, seems they would be preparing for war anyway but Jaime Lannister just marches in.

It could be justified by either a part of Tyrell army already out of their castle to support Casterly Rock invasion or Randyl Tarly leading some kind of revolt from within as he's a Tyrell bannerman and a brilliant army commander, but these are significant plot points that should have been given more screen time. Only consolation is the plot is moving along which means we can concentrate on the white walkers soon
 
fishfingers15 said:
Also this Highgarden castle easily being taken is a comedy. The castle has three rings of white stone walls, with a labyrinth between the outer and inner walls to slow down invaders. One of the few castles that have been built over and over with towers from the age of heroes to the new ages. It is well provisioned and with Tyrells wanting revenge, seems they would be preparing for war anyway but Jaime Lannister just marches in.

It could be justified by either a part of Tyrell army already out of their castle to support Casterly Rock invasion or Randyl Tarly leading some kind of revolt from within as he's a Tyrell bannerman and a brilliant army commander, but these are significant plot points that should have been given more screen time. Only consolation is the plot is moving along which means we can concentrate on the white walkers soon
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Seeing the Tarly's with the Lannister's is a pretty good signal that a good number of the Tyrell Bannermen have gone over and we don't really need to be shown the Tyrell army elsewhere (ie those preparing to march or marching on Kings Landing) to understand that might be part of the issue. Though they did spoon feed us the idea that the Tyrell army at the castle was not very good, even old lady Tyrell admitted they were pretty soft.
 
JustAFan said:
One avenue now open is that while Jon assumed Cersei would be too busy in the south, she can now actually turn her eyes towards the North and move to bring it back into the fold. So you could end up with her having an army in the north when the army of the undead comes rumbling through. I would guess she would not lead it, perhaps have Jaime at the lead and then they could have him convinced that perhaps killing a bunch of Starks and their bannermen is probably a bad idea. Only with a little more to the story than that.
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We know all of that isnt the case because it's been leaked that she will get to know about the WW and decide to use the North as fodders.

fishfingers15 said:
Also this Highgarden castle easily being taken is a comedy. The castle has three rings of white stone walls, with a labyrinth between the outer and inner walls to slow down invaders. One of the few castles that have been built over and over with towers from the age of heroes to the new ages. It is well provisioned and with Tyrells wanting revenge, seems they would be preparing for war anyway but Jaime Lannister just marches in.

It could be justified by either a part of Tyrell army already out of their castle to support Casterly Rock invasion or Randyl Tarly leading some kind of revolt from within as he's a Tyrell bannerman and a brilliant army commander, but these are significant plot points that should have been given more screen time. Only consolation is the plot is moving along which means we can concentrate on the white walkers soon
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Men move faster than ravens and dragons, apparently.
 
JustAFan said:
Seeing the Tarly's with the Lannister's is a pretty good signal that a good number of the Tyrell Bannermen have gone over and we don't really need to be shown the Tyrell army elsewhere (ie those preparing to march or marching on Kings Landing) to understand that might be part of the issue. Though they did spoon feed us the idea that the Tyrell army at the castle was not very good, even old lady Tyrell admitted they were pretty soft.
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Tyrells control the Reach, Tarlys are just one of many Tyrell bannermen. Yes Randyl Tarly has a stellar reputation as a war general, but one bannerman going over to the other side shouldn't mean a well provisioned castle falling like nine pins especially when they are preparing for all out war. If that's all it took, then what's the purpose of Tyrells? Anybody could snatch them anytime coz they are not good at fighting. I can try to understand why the show did it, but it lacks common sense and just poor writing.
 
Lords of the Reach: "We have 3 dragons on our side, a horde of Dothrakis and our rightful liege who we swore fealty to and have no qualms following when they rebelled against the Lannister-Baratheon claimant."
Randyll Tarly: "Hey the Lannisters, sore beset from all sides, promised me to be the new Lord Paramount of the Reach. Follow me guys."
Lords of the Reach: "Ok."
 
fishfingers15 said:
Tyrells control the Reach, Tarlys are just one of many Tyrell bannermen. Yes Randyl Tarly has a stellar reputation as a war general, but one bannerman going over to the other side shouldn't mean a well provisioned castle falling like nine pins especially when they are preparing for all out war. If that's all it took, then what's the purpose of Tyrells? Anybody could snatch them anytime coz they are not good at fighting. I can try to understand why the show did it, but it lacks common sense and just poor writing.
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There were others at Kings Landing with Randyl Tarly, so it is not just one, though we have no idea the extent of the defections, there were at least some and that included the best. Randyl was just the focus of the discussion with Jaime, rather than have to show Jaime and/or Randyl talking the others into betraying the Tyrells, which would have been rather boring.

the series has already shown that the loyalty of the bannermen can be a very strong bond and can be breakable with the right pressure/reason to break the bond. It is not one of those things where everyone is ready to revolt at any second nor is it an unbreakable oath/bond.

It is politics isn't it.
 
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