I've read it three times from start to finish. I'm planning to start another time. I'm a compulsive reader though and I try to read 52 books every year (one per week)
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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I've read it three times from start to finish. I'm planning to start another time. I'm a compulsive reader though and I try to read 52 books every year (one per week)
Anyway, regarding the episode:
- Hot Pie the legend returns again! Now it really is time for Gendry again as well.
- Theon's "I'm out" scene was hilarious, took some survival lessons with Hot Pie it seems.
- They've butchered Littlefinger's character in the show. He just stands around weirdly smiling nowadays and what was the point of his conversation with Jon? "Before you leave, I've just come to tell you I loved your already married mother and now I love your sister. See ya"
- Hot Pie the legend returns again! Now it really is time for Gendry again as well.
- Theon's "I'm out" scene was hilarious, took some survival lessons with Hot Pie it seems.
- They've butchered Littlefinger's character in the show. He just stands around weirdly smiling nowadays and what was the point of his conversation with Jon? "Before you leave, I've just come to tell you I loved your already married mother and now I love your sister. See ya"
Rhaegar's annulment with Elia Martell makes no sense whatsoever. Targs's practice of polygamy is mentioned even in the show so why does it matter if he bedded and wedded Lyanna when already a married man? Totally something D&D would come up with though because it gives Sam something to do
I've read it from 1-5 about 5 times and ADwD+AFFC about 10 times. Hugely enjoyed Cersei's maniacal descent into ruin and disgrace.
Good point, but Rhaegar and Lyana never made sense even in the books. I haven't read a compelling reason why it needed to happen and I'm hoping books won't take the 'Rhaegar read the prophecy and fecked her to save the world' road. I'm thinking they'll do a similar sort of bullshit on the show
We never exactly know what transpired between Aemon and Rhaegar in the books. Aemon said Rhaegar believed himself The Prince Who Was Promised, and then his children. In the HoU Dany saw Rhaegar saying 'there must be another one, the dragon has 3 heads' - which kinda doesn't make sense because Dany wasn't born until after he is dead, so what ground did he have to believe himself and and his siblings the prophecy fulfilled in the first place?
Most of the theories are a bit far out though. If Rhaegar knew he has to wed a northern girl for Ice and Fire then why consented to Elia in the first place? I hope Martin revealed that mystery satisfactorily later on.
Also, it's quite cool reading the earlier hints about R+L=J. Rhaegar dropped the crown of winter's roses into Lyanna's 'lap' with 'the tip of his lance'.
I don't want Cersei/Lannisters to join Ice and Fire in the final battle, no need to go full LotR. I was all for Jon + Danny, but Jaime has to kill Cersei or I rebel.
I've read the first three books a couple of times.
For what is worth, Martin thinks that Winds will be published next year, but he thought the same in 2015 too.
I think it was quite clear from the books, that it was all for love. Probably the prophecies played some part, but Rhaegar just fell for Lyana (and vice versa).
The annulment makes no sense, Targs practiced polygamy (Aegon himself wed both of his sisters).
I think this link explains the prophecies well, but even then Rhaegar smitten with Lyanna Stark sounded contrived. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_prince_that_was_promised
None of Rhaegar Targaryen's actions in the books till that point explains this well. He excels at everything he does, seems fixated by prophecy, happily married, decides to be a knight one day and suddenly decides to court Lyanna. It is possible that he has never seen Lyanna till that point of time but seems rather unlike him to risk a rebellion. Anyway, I hope GRRM clears it up.
Rhaegar is clever enough to know what an uproar that'd make though, Barristan also remarked on his character as 'dutiful'. Hardly seems to be the case if you are willing to thrust the realm into war for love. Prophecy must have played a big part.
Although, there's always a touch of madness in the Targs, so wouldnt put it past Martin to explain it that way.
Agreed. Something happens in the Whent Tourney and the only one who can definitely say what is Howland Reed.
@fishfingers15
If the theory that Lyanna was the knight of the Laughing Tree is correct then Rhaegar and her met in private prior to him crowning her the queen of love and beauty.
Aerys wanted the mystery knight identified which would have put her in danger given that he was mental.
Lyanna already didn't want to marry Robert so I guess a better option showed up! Rhaegar was probably impressed by her in comparison to his sickly wife and if he was just following duty to have a 3rd child saw her as a perfect woman to choose. Alternatively and more likely he found her alluring and was thinking with his dick.
If the theory that Lyanna was the knight of the Laughing Tree is correct then Rhaegar and her met in private prior to him crowning her the queen of love and beauty.
Aerys wanted the mystery knight identified which would have put her in danger given that he was mental.
Lyanna already didn't want to marry Robert so I guess a better option showed up! Rhaegar was probably impressed by her in comparison to his sickly wife and if he was just following duty to have a 3rd child saw her as a perfect woman to choose. Alternatively and more likely he found her alluring and was thinking with his dick.
This much we all agree mate. However, as @Infinitepleasuredom pointed out, Rhaegar Targaryen seems to be the sort of guy who doesn't think with his dick and seems to believe the prophecy or at least pieces of prophecies concerning 'Prince that was promised' coming out of the Targ bloodline. To throw it all away at a tourney seems so unlike him especially if the speculation is true that he paid for the tourney himself as House Whent wasn't all that wealthy at that time.
I don't buy Lyanna and Rhaegar being in love theory. Lyanna specifically told Eddard that she didnt want to marry Robert because she knew Robert would never keep to one bed and she goes and willingly elopes with and marries an already married man. Just doesn't fit with what we know.
I've trained you well, my young padawan!!
Wow, so for every new re-read run i'm sure you've noticed and learned new things right
.Wow, so for every new re-read run i'm sure you've noticed and learned new things right
Interestingly enough that's how it went for me. With the knowledge from having read through it all once you all of a sudden discover completely new things are things that foreshadow later events in the books, it's quite amazing I have to say. I'm also not the most attentive reader I discovered since I had moments where I was sure I had never read a passage before or at least couldn't remember any of it.
Yup. Like the foreshadow of the Red Wedding in the HoU visions, I only picked it up in my 3rd read (mostly because I was so upset reading the Red Wedding the first time), all the R+L=J stuffs, tidbits here and there (gravedigger, Sarella = Alleras etc...). Martin has a delightful ability to put away hints where we least expect it.Wow, so for every new re-read run i'm sure you've noticed and learned new things right
I'm fairly sure Varys will be beheaded as well, but we'll know soon enough.
On my second read through them now, just started AFFC. Obviously noticing far much stuff this time around, especially after having read through a lot of the theories on reddit. First time around most of the subtleties, conspiracies, and identity-swapping went right over my head.
I've read them all twice and a few other important chapters a couple of times usually when I'm arguing with someone about something.
I remember re reading it and one of catelyns first chapters starts with 'her heart had turned to stone'
Its a good series for multiple reads
Its a good series for multiple reads
If you are not too much into the book, I'd suggest reading AFFC and ADWD together following the Boiled Leather reading order
I did that the first time around, this time I wanna do it the normal way to see how it goes. Looking forward to seeing Cersei unravel!
I think Littlefinger has been the worst character on the show for a while. He's just a smarmy idiot that stands around giving exposition in random accents. He's supposed to be all secretive and clever but has repeatedly been scheming right in front of people.
As I said in the show thread, his supposed secretiveness tends to be undermined by the shows need to linger on his face for about ten seconds every time something he can try to exploit is said. Hardly subtle.
I actually think he was pretty well depicted during the first few seasons (although I have to say I'm not a native speaker so his slightly switching accent never bothered me as I don't have an ear for that). Similar to how its happening in the books the viewer only slowly realized how he had influenced every major plotline. Him revealing that he was behind Jon Arryns death and then pushing Lysa through the moon door was his peak, it's been downhill since than, I was already annoyed how they handled the Vale situation, the Littlefinger from the books would've never gambled on Sansa vouching for him.
I feel that with Roose, Ramsay and Tywin gone, they're trying to make him the major scheming villain but as @Cheesy said in such an obvious way that it just feels forced and stupid.
Littlefinger from seasons 1-4 would be totally sucking up to Jon since his arrival in Winterfell, doing everything possible to make Jon trust him. Instead he just stands there looking dodgy as feck with that stupid smirk on his face, occasionally whispering vague innuendo to Sansa. Another character who has completely lost his way on the show.
+1
The whole deal with Petyr Baelish is his harmlessness and likeability. The 'I love your sister' scene was hugely out of character. What does he have to gain antagonising Jon? He thrives on making people unaware of his true intentions while pulling the strings.
Yeah, does seem as if another side of Baelish is being introduced. Seems as if by not acting behind the scenes to get what he wants, he's trying to show a genuine side of himself - his love for Sansa which is putting his character at risk for the first time. Seems as if he wants the impossible. He wants the respect of Snow for the love of Sansa. We'll see how desperate he'll become for it soon.
Nah, think it was good move on reflection. I think he's fecking with Jon the same way he did with Ned on purpose, seeing if his buttons can be pushed in the same way, know's he'll get away with it, with the odd bruise. Happened in the same place with Ned too, before Ned also headed south. Wonder if he'll try and get Jon fecked to clear the way to Sansa.
Yeah, in the books there's obviously the sinister side to him but the reason he advances so far in KL in the first place is because there's a genuine affability and charm to him. I'm not sure the show has ever really managed to convey that.
And even in his grooming of Dark Sansa, he always made sure to show her that he's completely on her side, serving her best interest. I don't quite get the point of all this creeping around, but then I never got giving her to Ramsay in the show either.
The Boltons taking Sansa made no sense either, since it meant rebelling against the Lannisters.
It's the Westerosi Inception
Organic Potatoes figured out the Varys is a secret Targaryen theory!
She was always a short term solution for the Boltons. For the immediate time being she gives the Boltons a link to the Starks via the marriage, which brings some of the other houses of the north in line. Then as soon as she would have produced an heir, they would have had no use for her anymore and she would have been killed or shipped back to Kings Landing to face the wrath of Cersei. The Lannister's with other pressing issues, might not have minded as the as the long term solution meant she was taken out.