Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

Seen this theory over at nerdist, not sure if it's been posted in here before. The URL speaks for itself, it's just book stuff really.

http://nerdist.com/game-of-thrones-theories-why-rhaegar-targaryen-fell-in-love-with-lyanna-stark/

GAME OF THRONES THEORIES: WHY RHAEGAR TARGARYEN FELL IN LOVE WITH LYANNA STARK

WARNING: This post discusses major theories and events, both from the show and its backstory, that you might consider spoilers, so do not continue if hearing them will make you swear seven bloody hells.

This Sunday, during the season six finale of Game of Thrones, many expect to finally (finally!) get an answer about what happened in the Tower of Joy, when Ned Stark‘s dying sister Lyanna made him promise her something that he never revealed.

The longstanding theory is that Lyanna made Ned swear to protect her newborn child, her son with Rhaegar Targaryen, a boy the world knows as Jon Snow. In our very first History of Thronespiece we discussed why many (myself included) think Ned’s bastard son might really be a Targaryen, one whose true identity was hidden from the world for his own safety. But how did it all happen? How did a Stark woman end up pregnant with the child of an already married Targaryen crown prince?

(Side note: It is almost impossible to come up with a totally new Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire theory at this point, due to the massive number of people out there trying to predict what will happen and answer mysteries about the past. I mean, at least two people figured out “Hodor” was short for “hold the door” years before it was revealed, so that should give you an idea of how difficult it is to figure out something new at this point.

That said, I have never seen this theory presented before, and it came to me as a result of doing all of these pieces on important historical events in the history of Westeros. So, if you have seen this said elsewhere previously, or even came up with it yourself, please know I believe you, it’s just that I never did.)

So if we work backward from the Tower of Joy (and what we think happened there), we face the question of just how Lyanna and Rhaegar came together at all. We know that their entire relationship only covered two years, starting in 281 AC at the infamous Tourney at Harrenhall, ending with them both dead in 283 AC (Rhaegar from a blow of Robert’s warhammer at the Battle of the Trident, Lyanna in the Tower of Joy).

The major events that we know for sure include:

  • 281 AC: After winning the jousting competition at the Tourney of Harrenhall, Rhaegar stunned the Seven Kingdoms by naming Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty instead of his own wife, Elia. Ned Stark referred to this moment as the day “all the smiles died.”
  • Sometime after that tournament, Rhaegar, with the help of two Kingsguards (Sers Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne) “kidnapped” Lyanna, leading to her oldest brother Brandon going to King’s Landing and demanding Rhaegar face him. Brandon and his friends were imprisoned by The Mad King for treason, and the king then called for their fathers to come to King’s Landing. They were all (save for one) executed, with Lord Rickard Stark burned alive while Brandon choked himself to death trying to rescue him. When King Aerys II called for Jon Arryn to send him the heads of Robert Baratheon (Lyanna had been promised to him by Lord Rickard) and Ned Stark, Lord Arryn refused, and instead Robert’s Rebellion began.
  • 283 AC: Robert killed Rhaegar at the ruby ford. Shortly after, Jaime Lannister killed The Mad King while the Lannister forces took the city for Robert, brutally killing Rhaegar’s wife and children in the process.
  • With the war basically over, Ned and his bannermen traveled to the Tower of Joy, where, strangely, Rhaegar had ordered his three best and loyal Kingsguard to protect Lyanna Stark. All three may have saved Rhaegar’s life during the war, the king’s life, or Elia and their children if they had been with them instead. Only two (adults) left the Tower of Joy alive, Ned and Howland Reed, and neither ever spoke about what took place inside.
None of it adds up, if—like Robert Baratheon and Brandon Stark both believed—Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. He didn’t.

Lyanna Stark was known as The She-Wolf because, like her niece Arya, she was courageous, fierce, and stubborn. The idea that Lyanna Stark would allow herself to be kidnapped without putting up a fight doesn’t make any sense. Not only that, the logistics of the most beloved and recognizable man in Westeros, which Rhaegar was, traveling north with two famous knights of the Kingsguard to abduct the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell without issue makes even less sense. It just couldn’t happen.

Lyanna would have had to have gone with him willingly for any of it to be possible, so we can throw out the kidnapping theory as the nonsense it is.

So if they were in love, how in the world did that happen?

The answer lies in another great mystery from the Tourney at Harrenhall, the anonymous “Knight of the Laughing Tree.”

Howland Reed, a bannerman of House Stark, attended the Tourney, and was dishonored by three squires. While they were physically picking on Lord Reed (a man short both in physical stature and prestige), Lyanna Stark came to his rescue on her horse (she was a great rider). She and her brothers then invited Howland to sit with them at the feast that night and treated him with honor and respect. During the feast Rhaegar played one of his sad, beautiful songs on his harp, and it made Lyanna weep (Rhaegar seems to have had this effect on women, no matter how tough they were).

Then, a couple of days later, a short mystery knight—dressed in hastily thrown together and improperly fitting armor, and carrying a shield that had a laughing weirwood tree painted on it—entered the joust and defeated the knights of all three squires that had mistreated Howland Reed. When the mystery knight spoke it was with a “booming” voice, one that did not seem to be the knight’s real voice.

Attempts to unmask the knight proved futile, and to this day there are theories it was Howland Reed himself, Benjen Stark, or even some other Northerner. But the answer is in the other popular candidate: Lyanna Stark. And there lies the origin of Rhaegar’s love for her.

The “Knight of the Laughing Tree” was short (check), used a fake voice (check), was obviously good with a horse (check), had an interest in vengeance for Howland Reed (check), defeated knights that weren’t overly renowned for their jousting, meaning the mystery knight didn’t need to be the greatest jouster (check), didn’t have armor of his (or her) own (check), and paid homage to the old gods (check).

Lyanna Stark fits all of those. Yet, you might be asking, if no one ever truly knew who the mystery knight was, what does it have to do with Rhaegar? Because Rhaegar did figure it out.

The Tourney at Harrenhall was the first time the paranoid Mad King had left the Red Keep in years, and because he was a crazy person that saw conspiracies everywhere, he was sure the mystery knight was an enemy of his. So he sent his son Rhaegar out to find the knight.

Rhaegar reported back that all he found was the knight’s shield in a tree.

Rhaegar lied. Rhaegar discovered that it was this tiny, young, beautiful, brave Stark girl that had stood up out of loyalty for her bannerman, and he didn’t turn her in. Beyond probably being awed by her, Rhaegar also knew his father was too nuts to see what this was—an act of love and honor for a bannerman—and the Mad King likely would have had her arrested or executed for treason, not only killing her but setting off a potential war with the North.

It’s why, when Rhaegar won the joust himself, he bypassed his own wife Elia and named the heroic Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, for she had been the mystery knight of the tournament.

When you factor in that Rhaegar had made her weep, and that he was the handsome crown prince—a man everyone loved and admired, the man who was good at everything he did—you have the beginnings of their doomed love.

Lyanna was the “Knight of the Laughing Tree,” a secret Rhaegar learned and kept for her safety, and he fell in love with her for it, and she fell in love with him. It’s why she stole away with Rhaegar a short time later, and why he had the Kingsguard protect her during Robert’s Rebellion. She was the love of his life, and she was carrying his child.

(Not to mention Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy of the prince that was promised, the one whose song would be that of ice and fire—and a Stark and Targaryen child would truly be of ice and fire.)

We might finally learn if Jon Snow is a Targaryen, and if his mother Lyanna died giving birth to him in the Tower of Joy. But we also might finally know what gave birth to his parents’ romance in the first place, when the crown prince learned the secret of a courageous young Stark girl, and fell in love with her for it.

What do you think of our theory about Rhaegar and Lyanna? Let us know in the comments below.
 
Yes, Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, I think that's widely accepted. The story explains how she and Rhaegar met and why he gave her the rose but not really how he "fell in love with her".
 
Yes, Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, I think that's widely accepted. The story explains how she and Rhaegar met and why he gave her the rose but not really how he "fell in love with her".

I'm not sure, Howland Reed himself is seen as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Barristan Selmy mentions that Rheagar Targaryen was not a warrior but more interested in books, but one day he comes across a passage in the book which makes him go out of the library and practise to be a warrior. My take is he got a vision/read something that required an alliance between the King in the North/Stark family which made him kidnap Lyanna and love blossomed later. I just hope they don't pin it on Bran and his time travel
 
Howland Reed as the KOTLT doesn't really make sense, he was a small crannogmen with little prior training in conventional combat. Lyanna being a good rider fits better.
 
I'm not sure, Howland Reed himself is seen as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
It's specified that he came to the tournament not knowing much about riding or jousting. Also, a mystery knight obviously has to hide his identity. Reed had no reason to, unlike Lyanna. Moreover, if he wanted to punish his bullies it'd have been more effective and satisfactory to do it as himself.
And the whole thing just ties together with the rest of the story much better if it's Lyanna, and explains how she met Rhaegar. It serves no purpose if it was Howland.
 
Howland Reed as the KOTLT doesn't really make sense, he was a small crannogmen with little prior training in conventional combat. Lyanna being a good rider fits better.

A good rider and being good with a horse doesn't make you a jouster. Barristan Selmy himself recounts the tale of him riding and losing in his first joust and he would not have been that much younger than Lyanna Stark. Her being the jouster doesn't make sense for the booming voice and the laughing sigil. When Meera tells the tale, she adds a lot of supernatural element with the Old gods giving strength and the knight himself praying to the Isle of the Faces.

Just saying that if Howland Reed doesn't make sense, so doesn't Lyanna Stark. Both could be possible, and both couldn't be.
 
A good rider and being good with a horse doesn't make you a jouster. Barristan Selmy himself recounts the tale of him riding and losing in his first joust and he would not have been that much younger than Lyanna Stark. Her being the jouster doesn't make sense for the booming voice and the laughing sigil. When Meera tells the tale, she adds a lot of supernatural element with the Old gods giving strength and the knight himself praying to the Isle of the Faces.

Just saying that if Howland Reed doesn't make sense, so doesn't Lyanna Stark. Both could be possible, and both couldn't be.
I thought the "booming voice" was to be taken as a clue that it wasn't the knight's real voice. A man doesn't have to fake a male voice.
 
It's specified that he came to the tournament not knowing much about riding or jousting. Also, a mystery knight obviously has to hide his identity. Reed had no reason to, unlike Lyanna. Moreover, if he wanted to punish his bullies it'd have been more effective and satisfactory to do it as himself.
And the whole thing just ties together with the rest of the story much better, if it's Lyanna. The whole point of that story was to establish the first connection between her and Rhaegar. It'd be pretty pointless if it's Howland.

Howland Reed isn't a knight, and unless you are a knight/squire you can't joust, can you? So It would make sense to hide his identity. When I first read the story of Meera reciting to Bran, I thought the purpose of the story is to underline to Bran why Howland Reed was very faithful to Ned Stark being one of the very few crannogmen who would come out of the Neck to fight for the Starks.
 
Howland Reed isn't a knight, and unless you are a knight/squire you can't joust, can you? So It would make sense to hide his identity. When I first read the story of Meera reciting to Bran, I thought the purpose of the story is to underline to Bran why Howland Reed was very faithful to Ned Stark being one of the very few crannogmen who would come out of the Neck to fight for the Starks.
How does that story show his faithfulness to Ned? I don't remember all the details.
 
I thought the "booming voice" was to be taken as a clue that it wasn't the knight's real voice. A man doesn't have to fake a male voice.

No, there was logical argument put forth that Reed wouldn't have been good at jousting. Logically, Lyanna wouldn't have a Stentorian voice as well. The story when it was told and the way it was told to Bran, seems to indicate supernatural elements involved in the fighting.

Ok, let me not argue too much about technicality. I don't know if it's Lyanna, it very well could be. I was just pointing out that it isn't open or shut. That theory posted was discussed on ASOIAF forums earlier too.

How does that story show his faithfulness to Ned? I don't remember all the details.

I meant, to house Stark. Meera tells this story to Bran while on the way to a place beyond the wall, a place that is supposed to be dangerous and not one that is welcome for a Stark family member. I thought the purpose of the story was to highlight the crannogmen's special relation with the Stark family and nothing to do with Rhaegar Targaryen.
 
A good rider and being good with a horse doesn't make you a jouster. Barristan Selmy himself recounts the tale of him riding and losing in his first joust and he would not have been that much younger than Lyanna Stark. Her being the jouster doesn't make sense for the booming voice and the laughing sigil. When Meera tells the tale, she adds a lot of supernatural element with the Old gods giving strength and the knight himself praying to the Isle of the Faces.

Just saying that if Howland Reed doesn't make sense, so doesn't Lyanna Stark. Both could be possible, and both couldn't be.

Selmy was a squire in over his head, challenging a Kingsguard iirc, or someone very seasoned.

The three the KOTLT defeated were green Frey boys.

A good rider doesn't make you an automatic great jouster, but it helps. Jaime was praising Loras's riding skill as essential in one chapter.
 
Anyone reckon we're gonna see Maester Marwyn hurrying off for Mereen tonight? Or Kevan Lannister taking one in the gut from Varys?
 
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Selmy was a squire in over his head, challenging a Kingsguard iirc, or someone very seasoned.

The three the KOTLT defeated were green Frey boys.

A good rider doesn't make you an automatic great jouster, but it helps. Jaime was praising Loras's riding skill as essential in one chapter.

Jaime Lannister is being bitter/humorous about Loras Tyrell because he beat Jaime in the tourney on Joffrey's naming day. Later in the Feast of the Crows, he observes that Loras pretty much puts the lance every time where he wants it.

You have the story wrong, The Knight of the Laughing Tree didn't just beat the squires, he beat three knights and asked them to chastise the squires to reclaim their possessions. So it wasn't some lady beating three squires, it was an unknown knight beating three knights experienced in jousting and tourneys.
 
Jaime Lannister is being bitter/humorous about Loras Tyrell because he beat Jaime in the tourney on Joffrey's naming day. Later in the Feast of the Crows, he observes that Loras pretty much puts the lance every time where he wants it.

You have the story wrong, The Knight of the Laughing Tree didn't just beat the squires, he beat three knights and asked them to chastise the squires to reclaim their possessions. So it wasn't some lady beating three squires, it was an unknown knight beating three knights experienced in jousting and tourneys.

Could she not just be somewhat experienced in some manner?
In one of brans visions he see's ned and her fighting near the heart tree (and ned was getting his ass kicked as far as i remember?)
Could she not have grabbed a practice lance and messed about in the woods or something?
Or at least enough to beat three possibly rubbish knights?
 
Fantastic episode. I thought Arya getting to the Twins was fast; but Varys getting from Dorne back to Meeren with a whole Dornish fleet in the same episode is something else :lol:
 
Anyway I think it's kinda sad that there are so few players left. I always liked about the books that the WW attack seemed very close but at the same time the continent was still in complete chaos with a group of major players active or even just starting their game (Euron and Aegon).
Now it's really just Cercei alone against the rest? That's more of a joke really, the Tyrells alone should have a bigger army and together they'd just crush her. Guess it is actually heading for the big "everyone unites to fight the WW".
 
Cersei playing the short-game has doomed herself and a huge number of people. Killing the Tyrells right as winter hits? Losing the crops of the Tyrells, who had been feeding Kings Landing, the Redwyne fleet for trading, the Hightowers for trading...
 
I still think it'll end up Jon against Daenerys. She'll hear he's a Targaryen once she's got power and the two will come to heads.
 
Cersei playing the short-game has doomed herself and a huge number of people. Killing the Tyrells right as winter hits? Losing the crops of the Tyrells, who had been feeding Kings Landing, the Redwyne fleet for trading, the Hightowers for trading...
She's playing no game. She's just the Mad Queen now.
 
Just realised that Cersei and Jaime have lost their second oldest son due to him falling from a tower. Rather ironic.
 
Not that I'm complaining, but Arya's arc was godlike-ish. Killing two Freys, baked them and slipped in on old Walder unnoticed before gutting him, and she isn't even a full fledged Faceless One yet.

Greatly satisfying, mind. And Cersei on the Iron Throne :drool:

Edit: fecking hell, just noticed. Did Varys learn how to teleport? He was in Dorne earlier in the episode and somehow behind Dany when she set sail.
 
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Ignoring the teleporting, a great end to a good season. Everyone knew that Jon was coming back, and everyone knew that he was the product of R+L but it was so satisfying to see it.

The look at the end from Jaime might suggest he is done with her, hopefully.

Also, Lady Mormont is a fecking badass.

Judging by the look from LF to Sansa at the end, at one point I can see Sansa being angry at not being the Queen in the North. I eventually think that Jon (Targaryen or Stark?) will marry Dany, in order to unite the north and her lot tok keep the Targ blood. There is also the fact that the show's favourite fan characters are almost invincible anyway,
 
That was fantastic.

From the other thread:



:lol:!
:lol:

Can't blame whoever it was, though. Even having read all the books, I don't think I'd have a chance of following what the feck was going on without checking in for the added commentary on here every Monday. It's not as if the showrunners are subtle about most aspects of what's going on either, it's just that there's so damn much to keep track of!

Edit: I half expected Arya to start licking Walder Frey's tears at some point. Great to see South Park get the recognition it deserves in popular culture :devil:
 
:lol:

Can't blame whoever it was, though. Even having read all the books, I don't think I'd have a chance of following what the feck was going on without checking in for the added commentary on here every Monday. It's not as if the showrunners are subtle about most aspects of what's going on either, it's just that there's so damn much to keep track of!

Edit: I half expected Arya to start licking Walder Frey's tears at some point. Great to see South Park get the recognition it deserves in popular culture :devil:
Oh yeah, I know it can be difficult to keep up. I just found that particular slip up hilarious. :lol:
 
Oh yeah, I know it can be difficult to keep up. I just found that particular slip up hilarious. :lol:
Yeah, absolutely. In the context of the entire world watching the show waiting for that confirmation (because everyone reads theories and spoilers) it was magnificent! :lol:
 
:lol:

Can't blame whoever it was, though. Even having read all the books, I don't think I'd have a chance of following what the feck was going on without checking in for the added commentary on here every Monday. It's not as if the showrunners are subtle about most aspects of what's going on either, it's just that there's so damn much to keep track of!

Edit: I half expected Arya to start licking Walder Frey's tears at some point. Great to see South Park get the recognition it deserves in popular culture :devil:

Oh yeah, I know it can be difficult to keep up. I just found that particular slip up hilarious. :lol:

Yeah, isn't R + L a bookreader thing?

It felt good watching this episode. Setting up for a great season next.
 
Yeah, isn't R + L a bookreader thing?

It felt good watching this episode. Setting up for a great season next.
For me there's not been near as much pointing to it in the TV series as there has been in the book. But as I said, everyone I encounter who hasn't read the books still seems to be on board with it on account of reading up on spoilers and theories.

Great set up for the next season, I agree. I fully expect Deanerys to lose most of her strength one way or another. As it stands right now, she's set up for a proper land slide victory with regards to "the game", and I just don't see it going down quite as straight forward as it is being set up for. Perhaps it's Euron that throws a wrench in it?
 
Also judging by the fact that Dany had a lot more ships than the Greyjoys brought them all with sails all with golden dragon heads, as well as the telporting, there will be a lot more logic bending to speed things up. I am fine with that to a degree. Varys teleporting with some Martell ships doesn't exactly hurt the plot and it saves a lot of boring 'filler'.
 
Also judging by the fact that Dany had a lot more ships than the Greyjoys brought them all with sails all with golden dragon heads, as well as the telporting, there will be a lot more logic bending to speed things up. I am fine with that to a degree. Varys teleporting with some Martell ships doesn't exactly hurt the plot and it saves a lot of boring 'filler'.
There were Tyrell ships there too, it was a great ending scene.