If Jon is likely to become the King in the North, what would that mean? No formal obeisance to KL? Total independence?
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
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Would Ghost have made much of a difference? He probably would've gone down in the first volley of arrows.
I'm guessing Jon told him stay with Sansa.
I'm guessing Jon told him stay with Sansa.
Might depend on the final power structure in play if Jon finishes the books as "King in the North" It could be a separate Kingdom, it could be a separate state but with loyalty and allegiance to the King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms,
I do, you apparently didn't read the post you quoted properly.
I'm at the stage now that I'm just enjoying the spectacle without bothering with the plot anymore. That last episode, believe it or not, was great for me because I got to see a sort of mini Field of Fire enactment.
No, he would not forward his own claim ahead of one of Ned's trueborn children.
He would support Sansa's rights over his own, as he did when Stannis offered him legitimisation and rule over Winterfell
Pissed off that stannis died tho. Didn't jon snow die too?
The Vale army really tipped it in Jon Snows favour. As Cross said, the Vale has 45,000 men and likely mustered 20,000 on short notice (Same amount Robbie called quickly). 22,000 vs 6,000 is slaughter.
Which is why the idea of Ramsay not knowing about Moat Cailin is utterly ridiculous.
Which is why the idea of Ramsay not knowing about Moat Cailin is utterly ridiculous.
Cercei blowing up KL with wildfyre seems a safer bet every week.
Really going out of the way to mention it and foreshadow it as often as possible in recent weeks.
I've given up on the plot, consistency and dialogue this season too. Its just at a really low level, its like an australian soap thats on in the afternoon or something at this point.
Enjoyed this weeks episode because it was a good spectacle, which is about all the show has to offer these days.
Really going out of the way to mention it and foreshadow it as often as possible in recent weeks.
I've given up on the plot, consistency and dialogue this season too. Its just at a really low level, its like an australian soap thats on in the afternoon or something at this point.
Enjoyed this weeks episode because it was a good spectacle, which is about all the show has to offer these days.
I did read it properly. I mentioned the fact its high fantasy fiction because you said he'd die in that situation irl.
Not properly enough to see me laughing at the absurdity of arguing about warfare logistics in a high fantasy adaptation, which the ensuing examples highlighted.
According to yourself the Vale has a cavalry 10k. I agree that some may have remained in the Vale but Sending 1k against the Boltons is ridiculous. Lets say he sent 7000k to even the odds (although Little finger summoned all the knights of the Vale not some of them)
Regarding a strong cavalry army lets see what Robert says about a strong cavalry with no siege weapons
And we're talking of savages Westerosi don't know. What if its an organized cavalry lead by a Stark, true heirs of the North.
The Umbers aren't loyal to anybody. They didn't bend the knee remember. If the Umbers rebel and opened the gates then Jon's superior army will enter.
Yup the Vale horsemen rode in like the cavalry to save the day
. Problem being is we have ZERO idea how the Vale army got by Moat Cailin, was it by force (in which case you would think anyone there would have sent a warning to Ramsey, but as pointed in other episodes Crows can be stopped from delivering messages), stealth (ie a small force was able to sneak in and kill everyone at Moat Cailin before they could send warning) or whoever is there turned against Ramsey and thus sent no warning. IN theory though I would put it as very unlikely, if they did not bring a large force, they could have pulled a Stannis and sailed to a location above Moat Cailin (say to the Manderlay place) and approached that way. That just opens up a whole slew of questions about where the ships came from, yadda yadda yadda
Right so the argument is that the the fictional armies in the fantasy medieval-ish world used outdated real world military strategies with one side being a very small barbarian horde led by an undead bastard, opposed by a legitimized psychopath bastard with many more men who has no absolutely no problem with shooting hundreds of his own soldiers in the back from a distance just for fun.
The answer is 'vinegar'.
The answer is 'vinegar'.
I know. However a good number of them are currently in the North or at the Vale. Ice and Longclaw are/were owned by Northern families. Nightfall, Lady Forlorn and Lamentation are at the Vale. Compared to others that's quite a lot. Also some of the finest swordsmen were from the North. The Greatjon was a legend. Brandon and Eddard were quite decent swordsmen. Sword fighting is part and parcel of the North. Hence why the Boltons use of the phalanx formation is ridiculous
Post of the day!
He would've been dead pretty quickly. There's no way for him to survive that battle if they had him there, without some silly logical acrobatics. Better to just cut him off entirely, if he isn't meant to die just yet.
Actually there are a few hundred valyrian steel swords in Westeros alone. At least in the books.
As far as moat Cailin goes we don't even know IF it was manned. If no trouble was expected from the south, it is possible he focused on the threat from the wall and left his rear area open. Shit happens in war and commanders feck up.
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That is what Maesters record, but there are only 11 known to really exist, with 7 others having unknown fates.
Only one that we know of took part in this battle though, which sort of makes the original mention of them in this conversation sort of pointless since one freaking valerian sword is not going to make much of a difference in this battle
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I guess there are a lot more of them that we just don't read about. If you look at the quote from the wiki
"but in Westeros there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood'sInventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from recorded history.[6] Most Valyrian steel blades in Westeros are treasured heirlooms of noble houses, each with its own name and storied history, and even impoverished lesser houses are unwilling to give them up." http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...ry:_valyria.27s_children.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-5
I'd have to look the exact quotes from the books up (I don't have them here, maybe someone who has them around can do that) but it sounds a lot like there are many of the swords spread around the houses.
Of course.
Leeeeeroy!!!
Only if you counted the blades described in the books yourself. In the third book while talking about Longclaw, it is said that thousands of blades exist in the world, but a few hundreds exist in Westeros. As legolegs said, there's the 227 number in Westeros but even that is not totally clear as Valyrian swords are prized possessions and even smaller houses don't sell it and keep them as secrets. Euron Greyjoy somehow possesses an armor of Valyrian Steel, which is worth a kingdom by itself even in the ages of Valyria, which is how Damphair figures out that Euron routinely goes to the doom of Valyria. I hope they do him justice next season.
I'm going off what I saw on TV, certainly didn't look like 7000+ horsemen. I would have estimated them to be about 1000-2000 at most. But anyway, this is deviating from my original point that if it had come to a siege, the Boltons would have won. That was implied in the show itself at that war council meeting. If 7000+ horsemen had come, good luck feeding them all!
Sansa made the right move in not telling Jon. The Umbers watched Rickon murdered before their eyes and saw their own men peppered with arrows; really don't think they would have rebelled when they are all comfortable and warm within Winterfell walls.
Wait a minute I am assuming that Jon told Ramsey that he's got the Vale support and that Ramsey decided to hide in Winterfell
If the Vale sent 1k-2k cavalry then they might as well stayed home. Even if they found no resistance in Moat Cailin Ramsey's army would annihilate them and it would only serve to weaken the Vale and cause a civil war between the North and the Vale.
Feeding off such an army wouldn't be that big of a problem either.
a- surely the Vale knows what sort of expedition this is. They wouldn't send an army without supplies
b- The Reeds are loyal to the Starks and control quite a stretch of land. The Mormonts will surely help
c- Most of the North will bend the knee at the sight of 7000 cavalry especially since its lead by the Starks. Ramsey wasn't very nice with people so they will see that army as a salvation.
Also the North is not the Westerlands. Their fortresses are mostly basic and poorly maintained (even Moat Cailin whose one of the most strategic fortresses in the North is in ruins), torrhen square have walls which are just 30 feet high (Storm's end walls are 100 feet high) and Deepwood Motte is made of wood. If the iron islanders can capture key positions so easily so can the Vale knights. Castles would fall and bannermen will join Jon Snow superior for
I don't think there would even come to that. Once Ramsey's bannermen see Jon Snow's superior force they would bend the knee, especially Lord Umber who hasn't bent the knee to anybody just yet.
Wait what
It's not shocking if Varys turns up to kill Kevan, I think it has to be that, or Tommen/ a Tyrell.
Tommen would seem a bit extreme for Varys considering Tommen's still quite young and impressionable, and Varys comes across as decent in the show. High Sparrow is definitely possible though, if Cersei hasn't already razed KL to the ground as seems possible.
Thoughts?
Why did Varys kill Kevan? I can't remember the reasoning in the books. I think it was the end of the last book though so now I think about it there wasn't an explanation.
However Kevan seemed to be the only reasonable Lannister beyond Tyrion, and was actively working against Cercei's plots or at least did not stand for her nonsense.
What purpose if there to kill Kevan? I'm speculating that Varys wanted him dead because Kevan knew what he was doing, compared to Cercei, who will keep everything chaotic in Kings Landing.
However Kevan seemed to be the only reasonable Lannister beyond Tyrion, and was actively working against Cercei's plots or at least did not stand for her nonsense.
What purpose if there to kill Kevan? I'm speculating that Varys wanted him dead because Kevan knew what he was doing, compared to Cercei, who will keep everything chaotic in Kings Landing.
He wanted Cersei to ruin the kingdom. Kevan was fixing her mess too well.
Yeah Varys even says that he bears no ill will to Kevan Lannister but he can't allow him to fix all the issues by Cersei. He kills him with a crossbow to make them suspect that the Tyrells have killed him.
On the bog too. Like his brother.
No, Varys wounds him with the cross bow and asks his little birds to finish Kevan Lannister. Just remembered while responding to this, Kevan Lannister dies immediately after finding the white raven for the winter and in the preview clips, there's a white raven. Is this why this is being discussed here?
We got to update the Death list
More and more looks like Theon and Littlefinger may survive this season.
Ramsay Bolton (Done)
Wun wun (Done)
Rickon Stark (Done)
Tommen/Cersei
Kevan Lannister
Theon Greyjoy
Littlefinger
Wun wun (Done)
Rickon Stark (Done)
Tommen/Cersei
Kevan Lannister
Theon Greyjoy
Littlefinger
More and more looks like Theon and Littlefinger may survive this season.
I'd like to add Benjen Stark to this list
Yeah that was my reasoning too, especially if Varys was backing Aegon.