Nothing much since then, just a bunch of filler.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
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Nothing much since then, just a bunch of filler.
One thing I noticed about Jon Snow's army, was all the freaking shields they were all carrying.......oh wait......
It is and that why Ramsey's tactic was even more stupid. A typical general would have provoked the wildlings, he would pepper them with arrows and then he would resist the charge and have his superior cavalry hit from the enemy rear. That's what a typical medieval army would do. Instead we saw a medieval army go in full phalanx formation which seriously its unheard of
Not it wasn't it. Did you not watch the show? Did you happen to notice that until the end of the battle there were not Knights of the Vale around Jon's army? It's possible the Vale was lugging along some siege equipment, then again siege weapons were often built on the spot not lugged around with the army. It is often, large and cumbersome, if the materials are available much easier to build much of it on the spot.
We know Jon's army of Northmen and Wildlings were not prepared for a siege. Whether the army of the Vale moved with such equipment is not known, we can not really assume they did or did not bring siege equipment.
Once again, its unheard off that mid-late medieval armies would be purely consisted of just rabble who use one hand swords, especially since they lack proper armor
The phalanx system was abandoned for a reason. It required loads of training to keep formation and anything (uneven terrain, bodies etc) can break the phalanx making it vulnerable.
I am assuming that Sansa told Jon about the knights of the Vale support
North men and Wildings still would freeze to death if a storm hit. The knights of the Vale are mostly Cavalry, they wouldn't have time to have brought siege equipment.
But in a way, yes, Sansa has become a player in the Game of Thrones.
Yep.
Jon Snow should've been mowed down by archers and he should've lead with his pike men to meet their cavalry charge. The wildlings would have been slaughtered by the Bolton cavalry the same way Stannis did.
In fairness Jon Snow in the show is a bit stupid in general.
You really did not watch the episode did you?
His original plan was sound, where he fecked up was in the execution......mainly abandoning his plan by letting his emotions get away from him. Fine rush out to save your brother, but he should have retreated back to his lines and tried to get Ramsey to charge him. Though Ramsey from the start, was showing some coolness in putting his plan into effect and waiting for his moment to charge, first with his cavalry and then at the end with his infantry to finish off the Wildling/Northmen army.
They could have taken ships from Gulltown to White Harbor. If they had, the Manderlys would likely have joined them but the GOT wiki says they remained neutral.
Is ghost definitely still alive? Haven't seen the mutt since the clash with the nights watch deserters, hope so, would be the only one left (though not sure about Arya's?)
What I saw is Ramsey showing skills with the bow and arrow that are more accomplished to a professional archer with decades of experience rather than that of a bastard. Then we see Ramsey charging his cavalry against one man with Jon army doing the same. Then a couple of arrows were fired over both enemies and allies (there was a noble man there too, which is kind of ridiculous to use such tactic when you're relying on your bannermen to win the war). Then a pile of bodies appeared out of nowhere nicely set up behind Jon Snow's army (Leonidas from 300 seem to have been busy) and then the North decided to go full unsullied mode (when we keep on hearing of how good Northern people are with their sword) and attack in full phalanx formation while Jon Snow's army was trapped between a rock and a hard place.
Suddenly an army of knights of the Vale appeared out of nowhere (there was no single infantry in that army which is amazing since the Vale is surrounded filled with mountains) and hit them from the back.
His plan was dumb. Bolton archers out ranged his and he had no defence against a cavalry charge.
The Boltons were isolated and outmatched. All the Starks had to do is to show them their army superiority and issue pardons and those bannermen would have skinned the bastard.
We are talking about Karstarks (Stark relatives), Umbers (the Great Jon remained loyal to Robb even when his doggy chewed his fingers) and the frigging Manderlys here.
Except Ramsey's army seemed very well trained and armored so they were not a rabble of peasants with just one handed swords and more importantly they are an army in the fictional world of the show, so you have to be careful about getting caught up in historical accuracy. I mean they have magic and dragons and zombies and white walkers and a massive wall of snow and ice and people getting brought back to life by the gods and wargs and all sorts of other shit that never existed in medieval times.
I mean if the argument is really that well in Planet Earth by medieval times people did not use that formation, then well we might as well stop the whole show now and say feck it why bother since it is all so horrible historically inaccurate.
Ummmmm.....again do you even watch the show? The Bolton Army outnumbered Jon Snows army by more than 2 to 1. At the beginning of the battle the Vale army was not there.
You have to on a Wum right now, nobody watching that show could be that oblivious to the situation.
@Everest Red
all of that, plus a religious cult have seized a lot of power from Tommen/Cercei, she's in a particularly difficult situation and is on trial while Tommen is sort of working with/for them, having become King after Joffrey died. Tyrion killed his dad and his prostitute and is now running Mereen with Dany, Theon and Yara are working for her too along with the Dothraki, the dragons are grown up, Sir Friendzone is turning into a stone man and has pissed off looking for a cure, Loras is imprisoned by the cult mentioned earlier them and looks broke, Margary is pretending to be converted but isn't, Snow made an alliance with the wildlings and they're now with him, the mountain is a zombie, the fat lad from the night's watch is down south doing something, Gendry is presumably still rowing... and other stuff.
I take that, hence why I close an eye or two towards the Unsullied using an obsolete tactic. However the North? Seriously? They are all swords, Valerian steel and all that BS only to go and fight in a pure phalanx formation. It doesn't even make sense
Yeah mate. Ghost was last seen at Castle Black. Arya's wolf is still around; I'm hoping we see a reunion when she comes back to Westeros.
Actually the Vale has about 10,000 in cavalry. What they would lack is siege weaponry.
Are we seriously debating the battlefield logistics of a show? 
Jon Snow's plot armor was so thick that not a single arrow hit him in an open field, and miraculously all the horses charging at him just collide with others.
The whole scene with him is just comical, feels like Pelegrín Took in the Battle of Pelennor Field.
Jon Snow's plot armor was so thick that not a single arrow hit him in an open field, and miraculously all the horses charging at him just collide with others.
The whole scene with him is just comical, feels like Pelegrín Took in the Battle of Pelennor Field.
That is the frigging point. The infantry would soak the attack, using their superior numbers to close them by the sides and the cavalry would hit the back. Thats what happened usually in Northern Europe medieval warfare. Instead we have spectacular long cavalry rides (read what happened in the Battle of Agincourt), a magical wall made up of bodies appearing out of nowhere and phalanx formations charging in, in the North with Winter's coming.
We don't know if the Bolton archers outranged his, all we know is that Davos ordered the archers not to fire because he did not want to kill their own men. Ramsey had no problem firing arrows into the melee between Jon and his army. Remember when the Ramsey archers were firing they were not shooting all the way to the original spot Snow's army was at, they were firing into the middle between the two starting points where the melee was taking place.
They had planned to give way in the center then squeeze in on the enemy. It really is not a horrible plan where you are outnumbered 2 to 1. Staying on defense in that type of situation is not dumb.
They still might have gotten slaughtered given the numbers they were facing, but we saw what happened to them when they attacked, if not for the Vale army showing up they were fecked.
So basically a small / relatively poor region which is mainly made up of mountains have a cavalry of 10,000 well armed and equipped men? Cool
Should not be that surprising that in a work of fiction some characters are able to survive and win a battle, almost every battle even real life ones has survivors.
They aren't all Valyrian steels FFS. There are like 10 valyrian swords in the entire Westeros.
Really man, did you watch the show and/or read the books?
I don't think anyone has said Jon's charge was not stupid. It was not his original plan for the battle that much is certain. It was definitely not the right thing to do, and why he should have stayed with his plan to be on the defensive all along.
Isolated? Nah, they have enough stores to last them through winter and hot water wells. Jon and his men would have meagre resources to live on, especially when the Knights of the Vale come in with all their horses. Winterfell would not have fallen to a siege. Outmatched? Ramsey had over 6k men, Jon some 2k. Add about another 1000 from the Vale, still Ramsey has him beat in numbers.
The same Karstarks who left Robb after he beheaded their Lord. The beginning of Robb's end.
The Great Jon died. In the books, they would have been loyal but in the show, the Umbers are the ones who handed over Rickon Stark to Ramsey. Loyalty lol.
Were those the Manderlys? If so, I'm disappointed. Didn't really catch that bit.
He has to be on a wum or just plain stupid or both.
It's getting laughable.
Yeah mate, read the companion book. The Vale with all its Houses has about a 45,000 strong army, 3:1 foot to horse ratio. And all the Houses in the East would respond to House Arryn, they are not all way up in the mountains.
He's wumming right? I keep falling for it.
Yeah you're right, but they still needed to use the King's Road in Frey territory just south of the neck so you would assume that somebody with a connection to the Boltons would have noticed a host of 10s of thousands of men and horses travelling towards a) the twins b) moat cailin c) castle cerwyn and then d)winterfell
At a guess it would take roughly a week to 10 days for a host to travel from the Eyrie to Winterfell.
Suppose all it takes is some good men to sneak by anyone
Costs a lot of money with CGI and all so they try to have minimal screen time with the wolves, especially as they need CGI money for the big battles and the dragons who are prioritized.
Also, maybe spoiler:
Isn't Nymeria (I think that's Arya's wolf?) supposed to be in some forest as leader of a pack of wolves or something?
Are we seriously debating the battlefield logistics of a show?
Jon Snow's plot armor was so thick that not a single arrow hit him in an open field, and miraculously all the horses charging at him just collide with others.
The whole scene with him is just comical, feels like Pelegrín Took in the Battle of Pelennor Field.
You do know people survived storming the beaches of Normandy, right?
Book wise yes that has been mentioned, on multiple occasions. Show wise, I am not sure if they did or did not mention anything about that. If it was, it was in passing and then dropped.
Not many on the first wave though, and given Snow rushed headlong into them, I wouldn't bet money on him surviving if this plays out irl.
Not many, OK, but you do also know this is a high fantasy piece of fiction. Purely hypothetical, and be honest, what would you're reaction be if he got hit by a horse and killed? Or by the hail of arrows? Or suffocated in the pile up? Kudos to the showrunners? Or "Dumb & Dumber strike again"?
Actually the overall casualty rate amongst the first waves on D-day were within the estimates, something along the lines of 35 to 40% casualty rate (that is dead, wounded and missing). Obviously at Omaha beach the numbers were much higher. At Utah for the entire day, not just the first wave the 4th Infantry division suffered a less than 1% casualty rate. The entire first wave across 5 separate beaches was not wiped out, lots survived.
These figures are for the D-Day in its entirety not just the first wave. the true numbers will probably never be known, but these seem within the range of most estimates I see.
http://www.warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/ddaycasualtyest.htm
If this were real life, there would also be no dragons, no Dany surviving flames, no magic reviving characters like Jon Snow and Beric, no magic, no giants, no dire wolves with psychic connections to their owners, no being able to actually wear the actual face of another so no one can tell, plus the smell of the House of Black and White with all that rotting flesh about would be awful, and on and on and on.