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Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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It was nice. Military tactics tend to go out the window in shows/movies so as stupid as;
- Jon charging into battle alone, and Ramsay not killing him straight away
- Rickon running in a straight line
- The men not just instantly shooting Ramsay down at the end
- The Umbers brashly running in when Ramsay was firing arrows into his own men
- Sansa not telling Jon she had a whole army in reserve
were, it was still a really good battle scene. Very gritting and bloody - that suffocation scene was very uncomfortable.
- Jon charging into battle alone, and Ramsay not killing him straight away
- Rickon running in a straight line
- The men not just instantly shooting Ramsay down at the end
- The Umbers brashly running in when Ramsay was firing arrows into his own men
- Sansa not telling Jon she had a whole army in reserve
were, it was still a really good battle scene. Very gritting and bloody - that suffocation scene was very uncomfortable.
Do we know for certain that Sansa was confident Littlefinger would show up at all?
Agree on the last two (and not too soon either).
I'll also add in:
A) Mel is killed by Davos, B) Tommen is killed by the Sand Snakes, who have been suspiciously/mercifully absent for most of the season and C) Kevan is killed by Varys, as in the books.
Also think LSH will eventually happen as Brienne is in roughly the right area while the show went out of their way to show that she still has Jamie's sword. Beric still being alive means it might not happen in the next episode though.
Wondering...
In the absence of LSH, assuming we don't see her, might the alternative be Brianne captured by the Frey's and Jaime having to make a choice of letting the Frey's defile and kill her or turning his back on the family alliance and saving Brienne?
Just pulling stuff out of my backside there.
Aye, that's a possibility. But the information itself of a potential reserve army must be notified to Jon, surely? The scene with the two arguing the night before shows the battle is already lost beforehand due to numbers, and Jon arguably loses the will to live when he sees Rickon die. If he knew there was a chance for the knights to show up, I'm sure the attack would've been far less gungho.
Beric has gone up North with the Hound, I don't think LSH will ever happen now.
Maybe, but it also might not have made a difference since how long could they sit and wait for an army that may or may not show up? Allowing Rickon to stay in Ramsey's grasp, running the risk that what few allies they have in the North might think that Jon and Sansa will not take any action and there is no point supporting them, that Ramsey might attack them while they wait at a time and place of his choosing, and we still do not know how much she told Jon about Littlefinger's role in things like giving her to Ramsey, killing their Aunt, so perhaps Jon might not be so happy to work with Littlefinger.
Now if everyone in every story behaved exactly as we think they should, most stories would be incredibly boring. If it was not for mistakes, misreading of situations, people being out thought by others, etc there really would be no story here at all.
like betraying Ned. I am sure Sansa must know about it having been in KL for long after that. But Does Jon know?.
Amol posted in the other thread yet? Waiting to see what confused him about the latest episode. 
Felt a bit unrealistic that none of the hundreds of arrows from Ramsay's army found Jon. I know I know..
First thing I screamed at tv after watching Sansa join the battle with Littlefinger is "you smug fecking biyatch cnut, you could have told it to your brother before it all started" but of course I may have a different opinion once I sober up. As much as I feel a lot of the scenes were jarring, I still wonder where the amazing Lyanna Mormont is. Please don't die, you're awesome!
As brilliant as Ramsay dying coz of his dogs was, I still wish Jon had punched him dead. Of course Roose already predicted Ramsay would be put down like a mad dog, and that's precisely what happened but, you know..
Already predicted last week that in the battle between two omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent forces of Littlefinger and Ramsay, it would be Littlefinger who'd win coz Baelish comes in only when he's on the winning side unlike Ramsay who's like a .. err, mad dog.
I suppose episode 10 would be mostly focused on King's Landing. That was one of the best scenes of 8th episode - High Sparrow (or Tommen) ruling out trial by combat. I did not predict that at all. Was assuming all along that Cersei loses trial by combat (or loses Tommen) which would trigger her burning King's Landing with wildfire.
Bit disappointed Jaime's still the same from S01 - would do anything for his love of Cersei. This shows once again that Tyrion should have told Jaime all he knew before killing Tywin and escaping KL to Essos. Characters who should have progressed a lot from earlier don't seem to progress much. Of course not everyone can change and a lot would stick to how they always were, some should have progressed at least based on what they experienced. Unfortunately, we have only 14 episodes left.
First thing I screamed at tv after watching Sansa join the battle with Littlefinger is "you smug fecking biyatch cnut, you could have told it to your brother before it all started" but of course I may have a different opinion once I sober up. As much as I feel a lot of the scenes were jarring, I still wonder where the amazing Lyanna Mormont is. Please don't die, you're awesome!
As brilliant as Ramsay dying coz of his dogs was, I still wish Jon had punched him dead. Of course Roose already predicted Ramsay would be put down like a mad dog, and that's precisely what happened but, you know..
Already predicted last week that in the battle between two omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent forces of Littlefinger and Ramsay, it would be Littlefinger who'd win coz Baelish comes in only when he's on the winning side unlike Ramsay who's like a .. err, mad dog.
I suppose episode 10 would be mostly focused on King's Landing. That was one of the best scenes of 8th episode - High Sparrow (or Tommen) ruling out trial by combat. I did not predict that at all. Was assuming all along that Cersei loses trial by combat (or loses Tommen) which would trigger her burning King's Landing with wildfire.
Bit disappointed Jaime's still the same from S01 - would do anything for his love of Cersei. This shows once again that Tyrion should have told Jaime all he knew before killing Tywin and escaping KL to Essos. Characters who should have progressed a lot from earlier don't seem to progress much. Of course not everyone can change and a lot would stick to how they always were, some should have progressed at least based on what they experienced. Unfortunately, we have only 14 episodes left.
I've enjoyed this season as a TV show but from a book reader's point of view it has been so frustrating to watch.A few things that annoyed me the most:
Sansa is still a stupid bitch.She still doesn't care about anyone but herself.That might be fine if they hadn't showed her to be so happy to be reunited with Jon only to scheme behind his back days later.
Jaime has regressed as a character when this should have been his season to really break free of Cersei.Also he hasn't shown any of the diplomatic skill he had in the books.
The show doesn't seem to have a clue what to do with Tyrion.All his problems seem forgotten and he just stands around making jokes.
The whole Northern Conspiracy was left out and replaced with Sansa running back to Littlefinger.The Manderlys were specifically mentioned as having one of the largest armies in the north but then were completly left out of the battle.
And of course the butchering of Dorne.I really need WoW soon.
Sansa is still a stupid bitch.She still doesn't care about anyone but herself.That might be fine if they hadn't showed her to be so happy to be reunited with Jon only to scheme behind his back days later.
Jaime has regressed as a character when this should have been his season to really break free of Cersei.Also he hasn't shown any of the diplomatic skill he had in the books.
The show doesn't seem to have a clue what to do with Tyrion.All his problems seem forgotten and he just stands around making jokes.
The whole Northern Conspiracy was left out and replaced with Sansa running back to Littlefinger.The Manderlys were specifically mentioned as having one of the largest armies in the north but then were completly left out of the battle.
And of course the butchering of Dorne.I really need WoW soon.
Felt a bit unrealistic that none of the hundreds of arrows from Ramsay's army found Jon. I know I know..
First thing I screamed at tv after watching Sansa join the battle with Littlefinger is "you smug fecking biyatch cnut, you could have told it to your brother before it all started" but of course I may have a different opinion once I sober up. As much as I feel a lot of the scenes were jarring, I still wonder where the amazing Lyanna Mormont is. Please don't die, you're awesome!
Back safely at camp but from the look she was giving Ramsey at the parley, she probably had to be convinced not to fight...
Lyanna is going to kill Dany for the way Dany treated her Uncle Jorah.
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Jorah Mormont will probably find a cure and take the black and become the Lord Commander of the watch.
That girl is awesome. Love her resting bitch face.
Well, that was fecking awesome. The reason why I persist with the show, despite the feeling that it'll ruin the remaining books for me. Well that, and the fact that I doubt Martin will ever finish up. Not sure exactly where I would rank it, in the scheme of things. Hardhome was probably my favourite up until now, because I wasn't exactly expecting it. This had been a long time coming, so it doesn't have that, but overall it was excellent. My favourite part was the way Ramsay took control of the battle. It suited both his a Jon's character to a tee.
Didn't it feel like they kinda made a point of it? I mean, the way they cut those scenes felt like they were explicitly stating "Look at all these arrows falling and not one of them hitting Jon Snow, for he is twice born, a thrice blessed" or something to that effect. That's the vibe I got from it, anyways
Felt a bit unrealistic that none of the hundreds of arrows from Ramsay's army found Jon. I know I know..
Didn't it feel like they kinda made a point of it? I mean, the way they cut those scenes felt like they were explicitly stating "Look at all these arrows falling and not one of them hitting Jon Snow, for he is twice born, a thrice blessed" or something to that effect. That's the vibe I got from it, anyways
I always joke with my brother that Dany is a representation of America- Meereen being the Vietnam/Afghanistan-style quagmires they get themselves into while trying to impose their own culture upon people
Then she goes and agrees to overthrow the democratically elected leader of the Iron Islands and impose her own like-minded ally.
Then she goes and agrees to overthrow the democratically elected leader of the Iron Islands and impose her own like-minded ally.
Well, that was fecking awesome. The reason why I persist with the show, despite the feeling that it'll ruin the remaining books for me. Well that, and the fact that I doubt Martin will ever finish up. Not sure exactly where I would rank it, in the scheme of things. Hardhome was probably my favourite up until now, because I wasn't exactly expecting it. This had been a long time coming, so it doesn't have that, but overall it was excellent. My favourite part was the way Ramsay took control of the battle. It suited both his a Jon's character to a tee.
Didn't it feel like they kinda made a point of it? I mean, the way they cut those scenes felt like they were explicitly stating "Look at all these arrows falling and not one of them hitting Jon Snow, for he is twice born, a thrice blessed" or something to that effect. That's the vibe I got from it, anyways
Checking your user name, we know the only real explanation was that he suddenly learned to use the force....too late for Rickon....but such is life.
Great episode, one of the best ever but not THE best of all. Deffo up there for sure. Idk if this goes in spoiler tags so I will just do it anyway:
Now that Wun Wun is dead does that mean no more giants? That'd be a shame, perhaps there are a few more up north somewhere. It will be interesting to see how the watch handles stuff up at the wall next season. Does anyone else think that Jon will end up back there sometime?
Only gripe is Jon's poor tactics. Had Littlefinger not turned up he would have been screwed. Ramsay's tactics were great, but he probably should have just had a siege in Winterfell or something. It is a shame to see Ramsey go, the show needs a real antagonist. Perhaps that will be Euron from now on?
Only gripe is Jon's poor tactics. Had Littlefinger not turned up he would have been screwed. Ramsay's tactics were great, but he probably should have just had a siege in Winterfell or something. It is a shame to see Ramsey go, the show needs a real antagonist. Perhaps that will be Euron from now on?
I have absolutely no idea why you put that in spoiler tags. Am I missing something or what do you consider a potential spoiler in there?
Anyway.. I won't miss Ramsay. He was way to cartoonish a villain imo. Preferred Roose a lot.
I don't know about Euron. I mean he IS a villain and considering we don't have a lot left in the show I guess he will become the closest to the "next big villain" but from what we got in the show! so far he completely lacks charisma and just doesn't appear to be a very interesting character at all and there's no connection to the popular characters of the show either. He needs to step up big time if they want people to really care about him as a main villain.. though maybe that's just not the plan at all.... I mean we have Dany and she'll move to Westeros
Anyway.. I won't miss Ramsay. He was way to cartoonish a villain imo. Preferred Roose a lot.
I don't know about Euron. I mean he IS a villain and considering we don't have a lot left in the show I guess he will become the closest to the "next big villain" but from what we got in the show! so far he completely lacks charisma and just doesn't appear to be a very interesting character at all and there's no connection to the popular characters of the show either. He needs to step up big time if they want people to really care about him as a main villain.. though maybe that's just not the plan at all.... I mean we have Dany and she'll move to Westeros
Holy fecking shit that was amazing.
Problem was not really Jon's tactics, he had a good plan in place. The problem was his failure to stick with his plan.
Next big villain? Look North beyond the wall. I mean there will still be some Game of Throwning in the Seven Kingdoms, and Euron will likely have a role to play, but the main focus of next season will be the invasion of The Others. I think, but I could be wrong.
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Just being cautious.
Considering she sent him a letter, he obviously sent her one back, because she shows up, at the head of the Reaches army.
Sansa, did one of the most nonsensical and despicable things in the entire series, because she did it to family. She allowed Jon to run off to slaughter in a 3:1 engagement. She allowed the houses loyal to her house, to be slaughtered. She allowed the Wildlings, who were loyal to Jon, to be slaughtered, and the knowledge she had of Littlefinger and the knights of the reach coming north, COMPLETELY CHANGES the dynamic of what happened. Rickon still dies, but the Wildlings are not wiped out, the houses loyal to the Starks don't lose 90% of their fighters.
Who the feck would ever trust Sansa now from any of those people. The only way Sansa has any credibility with any of those groups going forward, is if they actually make a show of concealing that Sansa 1) knew the army was coming and 2) asked for it.
If Jon doesn't hold her to account, if the northern houses loyal to the starks don't, then it's really poor writing because it would be totally out of character. The northern houses loyal to the starks, are loyal to them because the Starks were loyal in return. Jons entire personality is about personal honor and loyalty above everything else, and what Sansa did runs counter to everything Jon has done, and stood for, since he found himself in season 1.
Guy willing to die for his sworn enemies. Saves them by the thousands. Then Sansa lets him lead an army to a fight he knows he almost certainly can't win while she has thousands of knights of the vale in her pocket.
What I do not get is, why did Sansa not just say to Jon that she could send a raven to Littlefinger and get thousands of troops that could take Ramsay out in battle? I mean maybe Jon doesn't like LF but I think he would have at least been rational and sensible enough to see that with LF's help they could easily take Winterfell back. Sansa could have saved countless lives, as well as maybe Wun Wun.
Because she doesn't know whether or not the raven will actually make it to LF, she probably doesn't trust LF completely and she doesn't know how soon and how strong LF would arrive.
Meanwhile Winter is coming and Bolton can gather men while they look weak for doing nothing.
She knew he was coming. She had to know. See my post in the other thread.
It would be some incredible mental gymastics to justify the way it all went down if she didn't actually know.
She shows up with Littlefinger at head of army.
Sansa doesn't know Littlefinger is coming? Why is she at the head of the Army.
Littlefinger gets Sansa first? Why is he approaching from the side and rear of the Boltons. He would have to then, ride around the battle, many miles to the camp, say "hey Sansa, whats up". Then turn around, ride miles BACK to the battle, ride at least another 2 miles AROUND the battle so they can remain hidden, and then approach from the side.
All of this has to happen between the time Jon leaves camp with the warriors and soldiers, and the battle starts.
Sorry, she knew.
Even if Sansa didn't know if LF would show up she has to tell Jon. Holding back information like that in a situation like that.. you just can't do that. She should've told him from the start actually.
Just think about it. It's an outright suicide mission and Sansa is plotting on her own. I mean seriously? They are family and she won't even work together with him/trust him in a situation like that?
Just think about it. It's an outright suicide mission and Sansa is plotting on her own. I mean seriously? They are family and she won't even work together with him/trust him in a situation like that?
Given that Jon was stupid enough to feck up his own battle plan and charge at the enemy himself, I'm not sure I'd tell him shit either.
Agree with this. I think that Sansa is getting too much stick for that.
It needs to be said that she urged Jon to delay the fight. She didn't want to give false hopes, or she wasn't sure that the army will come, or what LF will do, but she really wanted to delay the fight. In addition, her giving that info to Jon and them waiting would have likely removed the element of surprise and the cartoonish guy would have stayed at Winterfell instead of fighting out. And then, a long siege would have taken place.
I don't think that Sansa did much wrong, and definitely she didn't want Jon/Rickon to get killed, like I have seen people suggesting (not here).
Given the amount of true complaints and nitpicking that goes on, how come nobody is complaining that Ramsey's hounds just happen to wait until he and Sansa are done talking to devour him? If they were that hungry why did they not eat him immediately?
Obviously things are done for effect and you just have to roll with it.
Obviously things are done for effect and you just have to roll with it.
He was their master, they were probably thinking: "Bastard is here to feed us, finally."Given the amount of true complaints and nitpicking that goes on, how come nobody is complaining that Ramsey's hounds just happen to wait until he and Sansa are done talking to devour him? If they were that hungry why did they not eat him immediately?
Obviously things are done for effect and you just have to roll with it.
Then he just stayed sitting down so they helped themselves. But not before giving him a goodbye lick, which was cute.
I wonder if (if they bother having this scene at all) Varys will kill one of Cersei or the High Sparrow rather than Kevan. For the tv shock factor and it being a recognisably powerful character with the death having obvious consequences
Leanna Mormund's 'sass face' was great, that little girl has presence and didn't even need to say anything.
Okay...
So how did the knights of the vale travel from the eyrie to winterfell without anyone informing the Boltons?
Did the Freys let this host cross to the north without letting anyone know? I seem to remember there being an issue of traveling north without holding that crossing.
Did the rest of the houses quietly resist the Boltons?
Guess littlefinger has expanded his teleporter
Did the Freys let this host cross to the north without letting anyone know? I seem to remember there being an issue of traveling north without holding that crossing.
Did the rest of the houses quietly resist the Boltons?
Guess littlefinger has expanded his teleporter
What happened to all the rumours about casting Wyman Manderley in the tv show? He's definitely not gonna show up now right? Such a shame as I was looking forward to his speech. "The North remembers" and Wyman - they cut both :-(