Is Stannis dead then?
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
- Start date
Roose Bolton said so.
You remember it correctly.
Areo Hotah would destroy all three sand snakes with his hand tied behind his back in the books.
I feel like this is another case of them misinterpreting what the show is about and trying to appease dumb show fans. All the juggernaut female characters, the dumbing down of stories and giving the main characters cool moments and then making ridiculously short sighted "reveals" to shock watchers.
I honestly believe the fans are a big reason why this is acceptable. They have no interest in the world itself but rather specific favourite characters. That means the whole point about the books being an anti war statement is lost as all they want to see is Daenery's fly a dragon and burn people to death or Tyrion being drunk.
I feel like this is another case of them misinterpreting what the show is about and trying to appease dumb show fans. All the juggernaut female characters, the dumbing down of stories and giving the main characters cool moments and then making ridiculously short sighted "reveals" to shock watchers.
I honestly believe the fans are a big reason why this is acceptable. They have no interest in the world itself but rather specific favourite characters. That means the whole point about the books being an anti war statement is lost as all they want to see is Daenery's fly a dragon and burn people to death or Tyrion being drunk.
I don't know if it's fair to blame the fans, it's probably more about the two goons running it misinterpreting them the same way they misinterpret the books. Although I can't understand the people that get weirdly defensive about it when you point out the giant gaping plot holes and bad writing from the last couple of seasons.
The fans are enabling idiots who just want tits and violence. I'm reading in the show thread that bar Dorne the episode was great. No it wasn't.
Yeah I read that after I posted. I cede your point.
I see a Dexter kind of implosion for the show.
That's hardly saying much though, is it? I don't think it's a good show. I didn't enjoy the last two seasons. It's not that I have very high expectations due to me being a book reader and all, it's just that it's just not very high quality TV. The writing is not good, the plot is rushed and doesn't appear very well planned long-term; the dialogue is cringey; the cinematography is great, until they run out of money after 3 scenes and the rest is just average (at best). They're just going for the big "wow" moments and everything else is half-arsed. The exact opposite approach they had in the first seasons, which everyone enjoyed.
Episode two preview:
Don't like this one bit. What's the fecking point of Dorne if they just kill off both Doran and Hotah in five seconds? I hate to find things out like that instead of reading it the books where there would actually be a proper build-up and you'd understand it better although it'd still come as a surprise.
The fleet on fire in Meereen was random as feck as well, all of a sudden it just happened. Can't believe Stannis is dead just like that either.
Episode as a whole was a bit meh for me but didn't expect anything better. I'll still watch the rest of the season because it's impossible to avoid spoilers but am very disappointed right now GRRM didn't finish in time
The fleet on fire in Meereen was random as feck as well, all of a sudden it just happened. Can't believe Stannis is dead just like that either.
Episode as a whole was a bit meh for me but didn't expect anything better. I'll still watch the rest of the season because it's impossible to avoid spoilers but am very disappointed right now GRRM didn't finish in time
It's pretty disheartening when you go through the plotlines and see which you're actually interested in. The Wall should be good. Arya, King's Landing and Meereen might be decent. God knows what Bran's will be like. Everything else is meh at best. I think I'd actually prefer more Dorne to Daenerys and the Dothraki with Daario and Jorah in pursuit, stopping to look at his fecking arm at least once an episode.
Lord Commander Davos?
Btw, can we post in the TV Show thread now that we don't know anything more than they do? Thread title still suggests otherwise though..
He won't abandon his alliance to Stannis but once word gets out he's dead, who knows what might happen!
I just did but refrained from going beyond that one post since even talking about motivations of some of the players might bring in stuff from the book and give away where the story might be going. I suppose if we just kept it to "Oh that episode was crap" we might be okay.
Don't like this one bit. What's the fecking point of Dorne if they just kill off both Doran and Hotah in five seconds? I hate to find things out like that instead of reading it the books where there would actually be a proper build-up and you'd understand it better although it'd still come as a surprise.
The fleet on fire in Meereen was random as feck as well, all of a sudden it just happened. Can't believe Stannis is dead just like that either.
Episode as a whole was a bit meh for me but didn't expect anything better. I'll still watch the rest of the season because it's impossible to avoid spoilers but am very disappointed right now GRRM didn't finish in time
Fairly sure that it won't be the sand snakes that kill Doran or Areo Hotah. But it's not actually surprising that they will die eventually. Especially Doran Martell's sickness might kill him off before his plan comes to fruition.
Aye. I guess that at some point Dorne has to come into conflict with the Lannisters. In the books we'll probably get that through Arianne + Aegon + Doran's scheming. In the show though we don't have Arianne or Aegon or (probably) that much time left before Dorne have to make their move. So just killing Doran and replacing him with Ellaria is a dumbed down shortcut. The books will be nothing like that.
Also worth pointing out that the two sand snakes who killed Trystane are now in KL, just as I think they will be in the books? Presumably they have something to do there, which is why the writer's went through the effort of teleporting them onto that ship.
Sand snakes were pretty bad ass in the books as well. I'm not saying they would kill Hotah very easily, but they could have pulled it off. Some of the book readers' complaints are not right IMO. The series has always trailed behind the books in character development and there are many characters that are simply not presented well on the series. The episode is underwhelming to the book readers because we expected a lot from Doran Martell and his plots about iron throne to help the Targareans and he ends up dead. Now we know it probably didn't get anywhere. There's only person to blame for this and that's GRRM himself. We're now led by the series and when series decides to end a story arc, theories we have are proven wrong and we feel let down that it happened so quickly.
Sand snakes were so terrible last season that nothing can revive them this season, unless they kill Jaime or some very important character.
Sand snakes were so terrible last season that nothing can revive them this season, unless they kill Jaime or some very important character.
They won't kill Jamie but maybe Tommen? He would be an obvious target and those two sandsnakes are hanging about king's landing....
Aye, probably. Tommen will have to die in some way or another so I think they'll manage to do that. I think Jaime will be busy fighting the Faith Militant and the Sand Snakes, and at the end of the season slip to the Riverlands where Sansa will send Brienne south to find Arya. If LSH is a thing that could tie Jaime's book plot together...
Makes sense.
I dont really agree, I just dont think the tv series dorne has any real relevance to what happens in the books.
Only characters i can see being spoiled are jon, danaerys and the overall plot.
Tyrion's will be somewhat close but anything that doesn't involve him being clever, witty or drunk will be cut.
Every other character has already been changed so much that it just doens't matter much what they do from here imo.
Jaime's in an entirely different place, phsyically and in terms of character arc, from the books.
Same with Sansa, the Iron Isles, dorne, the riverlands, Stannis, the north remembers.
Its just not in the tv series.
Tommen is a great pick.
Well, we know that Doran Martell was plotting against the Iron Throne, so what happens in Dorne is very relevant to Kings Landing and the ending in general. Whatever you say, it's the same story, so it will build up to the same conclusion, so there will be characters that will be left out if it's not too important in the long run.
For instance Coldhands is an awesome character I liked in books, but not anywhere in TV. Sansa Stark is almost a child in the books, but her character development has been fast forwarded where she's now plotting with Brienne, which now also means that Brienne makes her peace with Lady SToneheart in the books. I'm just saying that the books take a long time to develop a character and story arc, but series because of screen time and cost don't do it justice. But it's essentially the same story and for the first time, we now glimpse into what could happen eventually and one of the major reason for disappointment for book readers is that this being spoilered to them. TV audience doesn't know it yet, they are fine with what they are seeing. They just don't like Sand snakes because of the monumental feck up last season on how they are portrayed. You are welcome to disagree.
The bolded part is very true for me - it's not the fact that I know now that bothers me, but with everything in the build-up to Doran's death now I'll be thinking "he's going to be dead rather sooner than later" and that bothers me a lot. I liked not knowing where things were headed, especially with GRRM when everything could take unexpected turns.
Meanwhile on the other thread, the argument now is whether Ser Allister Thorne was indeed justified in killing Jon Snow
Actually thought the episode was alright overall though.
I mean the negatives are obvious: Everything related to Dorne is and always will be awful, Dany's story line is dull (as in the books) and Arya's training is a drag too.
The stuff at the wall is great though. I like what they've done with Alliser's character and I like that Davos is more central to things. What happens with the Davos/Mel frenemy thing is kinda interesting too.
Also, we might hopefully see the end of the Theon-as-Reek and Sansa-as-victim plot lines, which had become pretty stale. There's also the possibility that the charisma of the Tyrion/Varys pairing will inject some life into Mereen.
I mean the negatives are obvious: Everything related to Dorne is and always will be awful, Dany's story line is dull (as in the books) and Arya's training is a drag too.
The stuff at the wall is great though. I like what they've done with Alliser's character and I like that Davos is more central to things. What happens with the Davos/Mel frenemy thing is kinda interesting too.
Also, we might hopefully see the end of the Theon-as-Reek and Sansa-as-victim plot lines, which had become pretty stale. There's also the possibility that the charisma of the Tyrion/Varys pairing will inject some life into Mereen.
Lady stonehearth kind of contradicts that though. As far as the tv series is concerned Catelyns story ended at the twins.
Guess it reveals she wont be taking the Iron Throne or killing the White Walkers or anything hugely significant but who expected that anyway?
Who's supposed to kill them in the books anyway? Oberyn's paramour (cant remember name) has buggered off to chill out in the books.
The 3 sand snakes are in on the plot to get revenge on the Lannisters and are all miles away.
Theres never been a suggestion that they would kill Doran anyway, they were just following Ariennes orders.
His plan might fail, (seems likely from the books) but they haven't even bothered introducing his plan in the tv series.
I just view him dying as taking a character they dont need anymore out of the mix. Without Arienne and Aegon the plot has just run its course.
So far. The Lady Stoneheart thing could easily still happen whenever they need it to.
why would they revive that character? Brienne has met up with Sansa already though. In the books, Stoneheart meets Brienne and she either has her killed already or in the process of killing her
Its the kind of shock the show writers love so i wouldn't put it past them but i dont really see any point at this stage.
Her character is pretty redundant now.
She was important to the north remembers (not in the series) and Jaime and Brienne's character arc (butchered and changed beyond recognition by now).
As DWelbz19 said above, if you need Jamie/Brienne and LSH to meet up as they probably do in the books then it wouldn't be hard to make it happen this season. Certainly nothing that's happened in the show precludes LSH making an appearance.
Hard to know how redundant the character is though as we don't know what GRRM had in mind for her. Plus, like you said, it's an easy surprise twist for writers who like easy surprise twists.
Well, agreed, Never say never.
Yes but the tv show didn't introduce her so shes obviously pointless - this seems to be the point people are making about dorne.
Which after the varoius things they've changed or completely left out just seems a bit silly to me
Did they think the CGI would be too costly? Hopefully not
You could do it with make up. It'd probably be far easier and better looking than cgi (and wouldn't cost anything).
I just think they're leaving it out. They probably have about 2 seasons worth of content that they just haven't covered with the Iron Isles and Jaime wandering around the Riverlands and whatnot.
Really cant see any of it making it in at this point. Some of it might make it in some very limited format but I expect most to be cut.
Episode wasn't too bad overall. Most of the stuff at the Wall was enjoyable. Edd's been very underused overall so it was great to see him have a couple of badass lines and to potentially play a big part in getting the Wildlings...wherever they went.
KL was okay, but Cersei seemed surprisingly calm and composed with her philosophical musings on how her mother died etc. I was expecting a complete breakdown considering what she's gone through.
Tyrion and Varys was mostly just exposition...in KL they played off each other as they worked around all the other figures vying for power in the city (Cersei/Tywin/LF/Tyrells etc), and that gave their scenes some intrigue, but that was sort of gone now they're just actively working together, and it seemed more like setup, which is fine at this stage.
Daenerys stuff was alright, but the Dothraki bro banter seemed a bit...off. The Khal's, "I like her. She has spirit." line was also incredibly cliched as well, but Daenerys sounds mildly intimidating in other languages as opposed to English where she's ridiculous.
Dorne was dreadful, though. None of it made sense. The Sand Snakes and Ellaria avenge the dead Martells by...murdering the only remaining Martells, and thus ending the family life. The tone was also really weird too...Trystane's death was supposed to be like a sort of comedic, badass scene almost, even though the Sand Snakes were murdering their own relatively young cousin who had little to defend him. Who's supposed to rule Dorne now? It'd have made sense for them to imprison the Martells and try to take power, but killing them was kind of outright ridiculous. They were hardly nice people, but they didn't come across as being evil as such...but then the four of them are all terribly written characters anyway so it doesn't make much of a difference.
KL was okay, but Cersei seemed surprisingly calm and composed with her philosophical musings on how her mother died etc. I was expecting a complete breakdown considering what she's gone through.
Tyrion and Varys was mostly just exposition...in KL they played off each other as they worked around all the other figures vying for power in the city (Cersei/Tywin/LF/Tyrells etc), and that gave their scenes some intrigue, but that was sort of gone now they're just actively working together, and it seemed more like setup, which is fine at this stage.
Daenerys stuff was alright, but the Dothraki bro banter seemed a bit...off. The Khal's, "I like her. She has spirit." line was also incredibly cliched as well, but Daenerys sounds mildly intimidating in other languages as opposed to English where she's ridiculous.
Dorne was dreadful, though. None of it made sense. The Sand Snakes and Ellaria avenge the dead Martells by...murdering the only remaining Martells, and thus ending the family life. The tone was also really weird too...Trystane's death was supposed to be like a sort of comedic, badass scene almost, even though the Sand Snakes were murdering their own relatively young cousin who had little to defend him. Who's supposed to rule Dorne now? It'd have made sense for them to imprison the Martells and try to take power, but killing them was kind of outright ridiculous. They were hardly nice people, but they didn't come across as being evil as such...but then the four of them are all terribly written characters anyway so it doesn't make much of a difference.
Seriously, they exclaim that everyone is sickened by Doran while they are both kin slayers and violators of guest right- they should be among the most hated people in Westeros at this point.
However, tv logic will win out and everyone will be cool cos who wants to watch more Dorne
From Dorne they cut Arianne Martell, Arys Oakheart, Quentyn Martell and Dark Star (and a couple of other characters associated with the Dornish attempts to gain power) from the top of my head. They cut the plot to crown Marcella and made Doran a craven and a moron.
First thing Doran does in the books when the Sand Snakes are getting rebellious = arrests them, in the TV show he basically gives them the freedom of the Dorne even after trying to kill Marcella. It's fecking stupid.
What did they give us in their place? Jaime and Bronn's buddy adventures, Tyrene's tits and this
Also killed Myrcela, Dorne apparently hates girls being murdered as they are all about love.
Yeah, it's been a bit ridiculous all around. Doran's fairly similar to his book counterpart, but book Doran did have a plan of sorts. Granted, it's a bit terrible and will probably fail, and he's nowhere near as clever as some fans like to think he is...but you at least got a sense of someone balancing his desire for revenge with protecting his people. Ellaria murdering Oberyn's brother (with whom he was close), and his nephew, though, is just really, really bizarre.