Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

The Jojen theory is the shittiest theory ever. Hate it and think it's a load of bollocks.

harshad said:
I didn't notice the Robb thing on my first read; but on the re-read, it struck me as something odd was happening there and had to check online for confirmation. :(
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I remember thinking it was weird that the last thing he said was the name of his wolf. Checked the forum and wham:( Poor fecker got killed twice.

harshad said:
Also, think the power of resurrection seems to be with both the other Red Priests that we have met so far. There is that passage in the Victarion Chapter, when Moqorro heals his hand, where there is a slight change in the POV, which resulted in the theory that Victarion died during that time and was brought back to life by Moqorro.

Agree on Bran though. His chapters would be a filled with information and should clarify many things, chief among them being whether Jojen is dead or alive?
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Remember the Victarion thing but he didn't die though. A theory I read on the forum was that he became an other...of sorts. Moqorro is the best of the red priests btw. Gets pretty much everything right compared to Melisandre getting almost everything wrong.
 
akash02 said:
That goes without saying and not what I'm arguing.



@ the bold. Of course but that's why we have her PoV. We know what she thinks. You can lie to others but you cannot constantly lie in your own thoughts.

She thinks Stannis is AA throughout though I suspect that will change in WoW when the evidence mounts against that notion.

Also, I think you are misinterpreting AA and Melisandre's intention. AA is not just some heroic prophesized guy but someone who will champion the red god. She doesn't care about power or claim. When she came to Stannis he was well down the line of succession and had a shite dragonstone for land. If she wanted power or army she could have gone to a few others ahead of Stannis most notably Renly.

And, she could not possibly have thought Jon was AA because he failed the very first criteria of AA. It wasn't until the very end of DwD that Jon was (possibly) reborn amidst salt and smoke.



I wondered about this as well. For Jon to be considered AA he'll have to give up the old gods and he's already refused that multiple times. Dany fits it best but perhaps too well for it to be true.
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"Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow."

That is from her PoV.

That isn't a noun she is talking about. I believe she has known Stannis wasn't or had doubts about him as AA for some time. I believe that she knew she had to go north and this is why she directed Stannis north. Now, when she prays to her god to show her AA all she sees is Snow, as in Jon Snow. Is Jon Snow AA? I would guess that he is and I've believed he was AA since probably book 2 over a decade ago or whenever it was I read it. However, that doesn't mean Jon is AA. He may very well be the next step she has to take. Dany could be AA and Jon might end up leading Melisandre to Dany.

But right now, it is about as absolutely clear as you can get without GRRM saying implicitly that Stannis isn't AA, that Stannis isn't AA and moreover that Melisandre no longer believes herself that Stannis is or might be AA.

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow

About as cut and dry as it gets with Martin.
 
She looks for AA. She only sees Jon Snow. At this point she thinks "crap, I'm not able to see AA any more", not "crap, AA is actually Jon Snow".

She knows nothing, as it were.
 
Nucks said:
"Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow."

That is from her PoV.

That isn't a noun she is talking about. I believe she has known Stannis wasn't or had doubts about him as AA for some time. I believe that she knew she had to go north and this is why she directed Stannis north. Now, when she prays to her god to show her AA all she sees is Snow, as in Jon Snow. Is Jon Snow AA? I would guess that he is and I've believed he was AA since probably book 2 over a decade ago or whenever it was I read it. However, that doesn't mean Jon is AA. He may very well be the next step she has to take. Dany could be AA and Jon might end up leading Melisandre to Dany.

But right now, it is about as absolutely clear as you can get without GRRM saying implicitly that Stannis isn't AA, that Stannis isn't AA and moreover that Melisandre no longer believes herself that Stannis is or might be AA.

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow

About as cut and dry as it gets with Martin.
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That quote pretty much proves she thinks Stannis is AA.

And to clarify, I don't think Stannis is AA. Two, it was Davos who directed Stannis North not Melisandre.

It's either Jon or Dany. Dany fits it perfectly and Aemon think she is AA. I don't care either way.
 
NoLogo said:
Of course her dragons were born from stone. They were stone eggs, remember. Jon isn't fitting the description at all especially considering the comet appeared after Danny's "rebirth". Jon is too much of a stretch to be even remotely considered AA.

But let's be honest in the end it's probably all just a myth an there won't even be a new AA. For all we know GRRM will let the others "win" in the end and every single charcter we know and love will die. I certainly wouldn't put it past the evil bastard. :lol:
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Most people believe that TPtwP is AA.

Dany fails the first check then. She isn't a prince. Moreover, Dany is too obvious. Whether or not AA actually appears, it seems rather unlikely that someone who loves to ambush the reader as much as Martin does would make the entire plot regarding the R'hllor and AA as mundane as Stannis or as obvious as Dany. The lineage question regarding Jon which many people think is probably real makes sense. Not only does it make sense it is the kind of twist Martin would write in. That people figured it out and he has said that some theories have already guessed major plot points makes that a very enticing path to follow. Basically everything about Jons guessed lineage makes sense from the way Ned would behave to the way Martin would plan it, drop little hints and then reveal it.

I think it is very possible Dany is an always has been a Red Herring to draw attention away from Jon.

Of course my personal favorite theory is that every dies but Sam, and Sam takes the Iron Throne ;p
 
akash02 said:
That quote pretty much proves she thinks Stannis is AA.

And to clarify, I don't think Stannis is AA. Two, it was Davos who directed Stannis North not Melisandre.

It's either Jon or Dany. Dany fits it perfectly and Aemon think she is AA. I don't care either way.
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If I recall, I thought it was Davos who recieved the letter who took it to Stannis who didn't really care and then Melisandre told him it was more important to go North. It was 4 years ago so I am fuzzy on that.

I can see how you would get that from that quote, but at the same time, I think the correct way to describe it in that light is "pretty much proves she thought Stannis was AA" I maintain by the end of DwD she absolutely does not think he is.
 
Nucks said:
Most people believe that TPtwP is AA.

Dany fails the first check then. She isn't a prince. Moreover, Dany is too obvious. Whether or not AA actually appears, it seems rather unlikely that someone who loves to ambush the reader as much as Martin does would make the entire plot regarding the R'hllor and AA as mundane as Stannis or as obvious as Dany. The lineage question regarding Jon which many people think is probably real makes sense. Not only does it make sense it is the kind of twist Martin would write in. That people figured it out and he has said that some theories have already guessed major plot points makes that a very enticing path to follow. Basically everything about Jons guessed lineage makes sense from the way Ned would behave to the way Martin would plan it, drop little hints and then reveal it.

I think it is very possible Dany is an always has been a Red Herring to draw attention away from Jon.

Of course my personal favorite theory is that every dies but Sam, and Sam takes the Iron Throne ;p
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This is what Maester Aemon tells Sam in FFC

No one ever looked for a girl ... It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar I thought … the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.
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What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years
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Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.
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Nucks said:
If I recall, I thought it was Davos who recieved the letter who took it to Stannis who didn't really care and then Melisandre told him it was more important to go North. It was 4 years ago so I am fuzzy on that.

I can see how you would get that from that quote, but at the same time, I think the correct way to describe it in that light is "pretty much proves she thought Stannis was AA" I maintain by the end of DwD she absolutely does not think he is.
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Fair enough. Davos instigated it though which was what I meant. Stannis himself said it was Davos as well. Doesn't matter anyway.

I tend to agree with @NoLogo

Jon could be AA but there's a LOT of pieces missing and you really have to stretch the evidence to the limits. The only thing that makes me pause is that GRRM went to great lengths to point out the tears and smoke when Jon "died". But that would really be a shitty way for him to become AA imo.
 
What happened to the neat "three part AA" theory? The dragon has three heads and all that jazz. Why not Dany + Jon + some other dude all being AA. Or something.
 
Nucks said:
Most people believe that TPtwP is AA.

Dany fails the first check then. She isn't a prince. Moreover, Dany is too obvious. Whether or not AA actually appears, it seems rather unlikely that someone who loves to ambush the reader as much as Martin does would make the entire plot regarding the R'hllor and AA as mundane as Stannis or as obvious as Dany. The lineage question regarding Jon which many people think is probably real makes sense. Not only does it make sense it is the kind of twist Martin would write in. That people figured it out and he has said that some theories have already guessed major plot points makes that a very enticing path to follow. Basically everything about Jons guessed lineage makes sense from the way Ned would behave to the way Martin would plan it, drop little hints and then reveal it.

I think it is very possible Dany is an always has been a Red Herring to draw attention away from Jon.

Of course my personal favorite theory is that every dies but Sam, and Sam takes the Iron Throne ;p
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I really don't think that's the case. I mean look at all the stuff that has come true so far. Non was really a far stretch or going around 10 corners. The red wedding foreshadowing was quite obvious once you knew about it. That Jon isn't really Ned's son is also quite obvious at this point and not a far stretch anymore. So I don't actually think GRRM is all that much about twists and turns that is only hinted on in little side notes.

Another thing is that I feel that myths and prophecies in ASOIAF are pretty much treated the same as they are in the real world. They are obscure and often fairly general so that they could fit a number of cases but will only make "sense" due to confirmation bias and hindsight.

I think the most likely scenery is that non of the prophecies really get full filled but that instead Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion and all the others character will write their very own story in the end that has no shining hero that will come to save the day for the entire world. Of course it's also just a feeling on my side but I have a feeling that GRRM will avoid all the cliches of your "standard" fantasy sagas, just as he has done so far. It would really surprise me if in the end everything turns into a "good vs. evil" fight for the fate of the world.
 
Bit of a meh episode featuring another cringeworthy and pointless Loras scene.

I still say the Varys thing does not make sense though. It never did in the book either until Aegon showed up. And I don't understand why the guy being burnt did not scream? Unless he was Mance Rayder after all?
 
Revan said:
Yeah, but on poor quality. I am waiting for 720p.
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Episode 1 was of poor quality but Episode 2 was decent.

akash02 said:
I still say the Varys thing does not make sense though. It never did in the book either until Aegon showed up. And I don't understand why the guy being burnt did not scream? Unless he was Mance Rayder after all?
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Did I miss it or did the woodswitch not say anything about the valanquor to Cersei
 
harshad said:
Episode 1 was of poor quality but Episode 2 was decent.
Did I miss it or did the woodswitch not say anything about the valanquor to Cersei
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Forgot about that. And no, she definitely didn't say anything about the volunqar. In which case what was the point of that scene? I though the entire point of that prophecy was to convey her irrational hatred of Tyrion? I guess they want to focus more on the Margeary side of things but then again you don't really need a prophecy for that.
 
Them dragons look even more impressive:drool:

Arya scenes are going to be great. Always liked the actor who plays Jaqen.

The election was a bit shit though and I really don't like the Sansa scenes.
 
DO NOT EVER, EVER, EVER MENTION ANY OF THE LEAKED/UNAIRED EPISODES IN HERE.

If you want to watch them, fine, but that's your prerogative and anyone who discusses anything that has not been aired on HBO yet will be thread-banned.
 
Cina said:
DO NOT EVER, EVER, EVER MENTION ANY OF THE LEAKED/UNAIRED EPISODES IN HERE.

If you want to watch them, fine, but that's your prerogative and anyone who discusses anything that has not been aired on HBO yet will be thread-banned.
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Just to be clear, can the episodes be discussed within the spoiler codes or is it a complete no no?
 
caid said:
Once the series catches up with the book i'd just have 1. Theres no way in hell your avoiding spoilers once the show has been released.
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Don't think you can as even when the TV show has caught up we'll still know/suspect more than non-readers as we have access to a greater depth of info.
 
Watched it again in HD and well didn't like it although that might just be the book reader in me nitpicking.

1. Loras...The guy is supposed to be a combination of about 3 characters and yet has no personality at all. They've massively stereotyped his character. I can understand wanting to explore the sexual side of his character that the books never did but give him something to do ffs rather than just be the gayboy of the show.
2. Littlefinger leaving Robin in care of the Lords rather than taking him with him. The show watchers probably won't care or notice but LF leaving Robin behind is just daft. His entire power is derived from the boy. Dumbing down the politics too much for my liking. Also, are they going to pretend Sansa never married Tyrion?
3. The prophecy. Don't know why they missed out the Volunqar part of it. And apparently the prophecy contradicts their own show canon which is just very shoddy writing if true.
4. Varys backstory...doesn't add up. They'll probably never bring it up again but I can't seem to let it go!!

They've done away with all of the good Stannis lines again...oh well. Expected I suppose.

Sir Matt said:
So, are they going to actually kill Mance or do the book thing?
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I'm guessing dead. a)He did not scream at all and b)They don't have a fake Arya lined up for Mance to rescue later on.
 
NoLogo said:
The strange part though is that the only one the prophecy really fits is Daenrys. “It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”

Of course Melisandre isn't aware of her at all and neither seems R'hllor. So I'm starting to think that R'hllor is a bit of a charlatan or Melisandre just has no clue what the fluff she is doing.
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Think on the whole stories name - a song of fire and ice. R'hllor is fire, the 'others' and the 'great other' are ice..... Or are the Dragons 'fire?'
 
Is this the book thread?

Is there meant to be no TV talk? I haven't seen the episode(s), yet I've already noticed several show-related posts.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Think on the whole stories name - a song of fire and ice. R'hllor is fire, the 'others' are ice..... Or are the Dragons 'fire?'
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Well the whole series name could be about a whole bunch of things like Dragons and Direwolves. Or it could just be about Jon
 
I think it's about balance. The first book started with the other coming back and ended with dragons being born to return balance.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
It could be, but Martin is smarter than that.
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Not sure that it's not a smart thing for it to be about Jon Snow, I mean he is the main candidate for AA and arguably is the direct link for a lot of the chaos in Westeros . I suspect the series title is about a whole host of things mind you, some fit in quite nicely like the return of the others and the dragons.
 
akash02 said:
3. The prophecy. Don't know why they missed out the Volunqar part of it. And apparently the prophecy contradicts their own show canon which is just very shoddy writing if true.
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I figured we might return to that flashback in a later episode? I mean they hadn't actually left the witch when the scene ended, so maybe there's more to come. They have to have Cersei kill off yer one anyway.

How does the prophesy contradict the show canon btw?
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Is this the book thread?

Is there meant to be no TV talk? I haven't seen the episode(s), yet I've already noticed several show-related posts.
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Pretty sure we usually post about the show here too once the episode has been aired. Maybe we should be using spoiler tags though....
 
sullydnl said:
I figured we might return to that flashback in a later episode? I mean they hadn't actually left the witch when the scene ended, so maybe there's more to come. They have to have Cersei kill off yer one anyway.

How does the prophesy contradict the show canon btw?
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I hadn't considered that tbh. Now that I think about it, it seems likely that they will come back to it. EDIT - Don't think she asked 3 question either (?) so they'll definitely be revising it. Good to know.

Apparently, Cersie has 2 scenes (with Catelyn and Robert) in season 1 where she says she had a child with Robert and goes on to describe him before eventually saying that the child died with fever. Kinda shocking they forgot about that:lol:
 
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