Sometimes I cannot tell whether I'm in a Poch or Moyes-pre-United thread.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
- Start date
Players who are part of a good team that plays with confidence carry that over to international duty. Even if it is all due to good recruitment that doesn't occur independently of the manager.
I also seriously doubt that another manager, Mourinho for example, would do better with the Spurs squad. He have them dispirited and playing like individuals within 6 months.
“At Old Trafford, Sir Alex Ferguson considers the Argentine the natural successor to Jose Mourinho.”
Snippet taken from a story I was reading today in the news, if true that’s good enough for me. Let Jose see out the season then get Poch in the summer.
Snippet taken from a story I was reading today in the news, if true that’s good enough for me. Let Jose see out the season then get Poch in the summer.
It's uncanny.
So if Poch left or they moved clubs they would revert back to their inferior selves? They are excellent players to man. He should be judged on what he's doing with those excellent players, not how frugal Levy and he has been in the market.
They would have at least won something by then. Pochs job at a bigger club won't be based on getting affordable players and playing pretty football. If he had the quality he currently has available elsewhere then he would be expected to be competiting for serious silverware.
Depends on who replaced him and how good a job they do.
One thing I'm very sure ofis that he has the potential to do much better with United's squad than Mourinho is doing in the very unlikely event that he becomes our manager. Not a very high bar I'll grant you.
It’s a shame Carlo Fergies first choice had already agreed terms elsewhere so we had to go with Moyes.
Poch is set to go to Real Madrid as we waited too long to say goodbye to Mourinho. Who would be next in line that we would like in the summer?
Absolutely.
Insane. how can they even compete?
No he has not. I was watching the game with my Spurs season ticket holder mate who said "when you look at our team now, we have many average players like Sissoko, Ben Davies, even Moura (who he claims is one of those players that can dribble well, but nothing else on top), Lamela (who he states may chip in with goals but oppos are not afraid of him). Neither Dier, Dembele, Moura, Sissoko, Davies should be playing for a team with title aspirations. Tottenham's 1st team is decent, nothing more. they have sub par midfield and not RW. Its a defence, Eriksen and Kane.
Like CM and RW. their centre midfielders are mid table standard and its an important position. It's like having a go at Simone for not winning the CL, even if the did not win that league title. What he has achieved with what he has is astonishing.
I'm genuinely struggling to believe that people think this.
I would have Poch above bloody Ramos any day of the week and Poch is our best manager for literally decades. For where the club is at the moment and where we need to be, a top 4 finish is much more important than a league or even Fa cup. It is a shame but that is the reality of modern football.
Of course, the optimal would be doing both.
I think there are very few managers who could do what Poch has done with Spurs over the past few seasons. The flip side of that is not every manager can do every job and I think Poch and his methods would do very badly at Real, at this current time anyway.
City finished 1st last season. Spurs finished third, 23 points behind. Just because you end up in a top 3 place doesn't mean you were in the race. And yes, money plays a very important role in it.
Last edited:
The option isn't either Poch or Ramos though.
You don't think you should have higher ambitions than making it into the top 4 with this squad?
No that isn't the option. Though with how some on here talk about trophies, you would think they'd probably think Spurs would be better off with Ramos, Mcleish or Martinez as manager.
You're basically asking a few different things there. Should we have higher ambitions? Yes of course. I want Spurs to win the league and the CL. I want Spurs to win every single match we play and to win the quadruple every season. I want Spurs to improve every season.
Is that necessarily realistic though? Of course not. And do you sometimes have to appreciate
We don't have the money, either transfer or wage, to have the kind of squad most of the other top 6 clubs do. We can't afford that so we don't have the same level of squad.
It is very very difficult to win trophies in this country now, the spread is much less than it was previously and the same 4 or so clubs have pretty much monopolised ever trophy going for the past 10 years.
No it isn't realistic. But expecting a team with the quality of players Spurs currently possess to be at least competing for major silverware, isn't.
The squad isn't that shallow. There's still decent depth in a number of key areas. The lack of a transfer budget would be an issue if you didn't already possess the quality you have. I'm not saying Poch has done a bad job, he's done very well, but at some point the focus needs to shift from building a team on a budget, to getting those excellent signings competing for trophies, and at the moment - considering the players you have - I think Poch should be getting more out of them.
Trippier,Dele and maybe Sanchez and Son.
I don't think so. Their squad isn't anything special. Liverpool and City are definitely stronger. I rate ours and Chelsea's very highly as well and better than theirs too. They have the 5th best squad in the PL IMO. And they refuse to spend. Yes Pochettino could have won a cup by now but aside from that and a better record against the better teams, there's not much you can expect from him. This season the lack of spending will probably catch up with them.
It isn't like this squad quality appeared from nowhere. The team Poch took over came finished 6th, behind Everton. He is the one that built and moulded this squad. And yes it is more shallow than the squads around us. Our cm options for this season are a joke. A crocked and regressing Dembele, a crocked Wanyama, a decent but a little stagnant Dier and an improving but still young and inexperienced Winks.
The squad was not better than the squad Klopp inherited or that Guardiola did or Mourinho. Yet those managers have spent, spent and spent again to try to improve their squads.
I think you're grossly overestimating how good our squad and underplaying Pochettino's achievements imo. He has done an incredible job and I doubt you'd find many things like it across Europe currently, with how much players and wealth is concentrating.
He has his faults for sure but there are few managers I'd swap him for as the Spurs manager.
I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one.
Theyve got the best set of defenders in the league. They've got some of the best creative players in the league, and the best pure striker in the league. Even their keeper, while capable of a few brain farts, is still class.
He's a great coach who managed to transform Tottenham, promoted players, gave them a chance to play. Wasn't backed up in the transfer market, however, they need a true captain in their side with a gung-ho mentality. On paper the spurs side is frightening. Lloris/Kane/Alli/Eriksen/Alderweireld/Moura/Lamela/Trippier/Davies/Dier... and still they can't muster a proper game against the top teams. Mentality isn't just there to be honest and this comes down from the manager usually. Pochettino is a great coach but is he instilling this winning mentality in his players' mind? Obviously not.
I'm not disputing that, and as I've said previously they've done well to get where they have. What I'm questioning is his ability to take them a step further.
The defence and praise around Poch almost always concludes with how well he's done to build this team, and how frugal he and Levy have been in the market. But when the talk moves to him going to Madrid or United, such skills aren't going to be a priority, in fact, being able to find bargain players and work within a restricted budget at a big club is going to be way down the list. So we need to judge him on other parameters, such as competitiveness and his ability to win trophies. Is he able to take a set of very good players to becoming very successful players? Would another manager be able to take them further than where they are now?
Their squad is incredibly overrated. Who are these supposedly best creative players? One Eriksson? Ali is not very creative. Son is quite good. Their CMs are nothing great. Their CBs are incredibly overrated over here. They're good but not world class like people pretend. Their fullbacks are pretty good but much weaker post Walker.
All in all there are a lot of decent/good players there with only Kane and Erikson being really brilliant. The rest are elevated due to excellent management and a team that plays cohesively.
I'd happily take the other four squads over theirs.
How can you be "very successful" with this team when you're up against the other top 5 spending as much as they do? He could have probably won a cup by now but are they really going to usurp City or even Liverpool now. I'd add us to that if weren't so mismanaged.
I guess it is a matter of opinion but for me, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Eriksen, Kane, Alli and Trippier would walk into our team. The likes of Son, Moura, Dembele and Ben Davies would be very much in the mix.
So, Trippier, Vertoghen, Alderweireld, Ericksen, Dier, Deli Alli, Moura/Son, Kane all on form could be in the United side. Maybe also Dembele and Davis.
Is Mourinho the one in charge of recruiting and spending? Then yes, he is responsible for the quality of the squad. After Ed's oped then I'm doubting the input that he actually has on even selecting players. Nonetheless, I expect him to still be able to work with the team. We don't have the best squad but it's better than at least 14 others in the league. The level displayed at points during this season hasn't been good enough.
You seem to lack the understanding that different managers can be good in different departments. Mourinho has shown that he knows how to win and with his experience he could lift this ambitious Spurs side to the next level. Pochettino has built a good side and seems to now lack direction. He has gotten his side close but failed, why? They are a good side.
Now, please address my questions as to the areas where Spurs need to spend?
Edit: grammar
Last edited:
We are quite far apart on that regard. It most definitely is not overrated, and this mind set has only really seemed to find any prevalence since Poch has begun to be questioned.
Ali picked up 10 assists last season; the only players to get more were City players. Kane is very creative for a striker, Trippiers delivery is as good as anyones in world football, and of course Eriksen and Son make up a very creative line up. Thats without considering the output of players like Lamela and Moura.
You'll find you're an outlier with your opinions regarding their CBs. If they were to be put on the market there would be no shortage of top teams enquiring.
I'd say City have comfortably the best squad in the league and there isn't too much difference between the rest.
Thats only if this argument began today. The horse has already bolted, they had the best top 5 side in the league for 2 seasons yet won nothing, wasted money trying to repeat their 2015 trick and are now stagnating as a side.
This debate is already out of date
Just because they've been prudent in the market doesnt mean we should not consider their squad on face value. Whether Kane cost them nothing or if they spent £200mil on him, he's still the same player. If Spurs spend £100m on Eriksen then would they be any more competitive? The players Spurs have were purchased for an absolute steal. The current squad, a settled squad of 2/3 years, should be performing better than they are. Other teams finanical respurces may seem them pull away in the future but in this moment in time, and over the last couple of seasons this set of players have underachieved.
At the start of each season most people say Spurs will fall away and their best chance has come and gone yet when they finish inside the CL places and as of now had the best start to a PL season in their history they are underachievers.
It's like people take their progress as an affront while other clubs are throwing 100s of millions each summer. If this set of players were so talented that their success is natural growth of a player's potential, rather than the coaching/structure then how did they sign the likes of Davies, Trippier, Alderweireld, Wanyama and Alli for about £35m and without any competition? Well apart from Southampton who had an agreed fee with Atletico Madrid for Toby.
Two years ago they lined up with Rose and Walker. Walker was being rotated with Kyle Naughton the season before Pochettino arrived. Rose signed a new deal right after Pochettino arrived and the reaction from Tottenham fans to that news:
Under Pochettino's guidance Rose became an England international and for a period of time arguably the best left back in the league. This forum had United fans having him in their transfer wishlists for prices up to £50m. Now we have people saying Ben Davies will get in our team. Maybe there's an obvious coincidence.
Walker became a £50m player under Poch good enough for Guardiola to buy.
Well given my post was made today it would be rather bizarre to apply the past to it, isn't it?
As for your claim, that's incorrect as well. They were pushed to the forefront because of a weak premier league and great work by their manager. Once the bigger teams sorted themselves out, Spurs' prominence was never going to lack given their lack of resources. Its only the Liecester season which people harping on about where you could make a case for their team right up there. Every other season there's either been one or usually multiple teams with better squads/players/teams than them. They mostly punch above their weight which is why holding them to the expectations clubs such as United and Chelsea have, is ridiculous.
I'm considering their squad on value. Obviously they've built well. But regardless, it's never been a team that you'd expect to win the league unless everyone else is in turmoil. Even on just the squad, ignoring the spending, I see them as a team that makes the most out of what it has, unlike us, and hence looks a tad better than the individual talent at their disposal.
But they could have pressed the advantage when they had it. Everybody pointed out how small the window of opportunity was for them yet we were still told how great their transfer policy was etc
This is a 2016 debate, its already too late.
Not really. Plenty of people feel their squad was good but not great throughout. I think their cohesion makes it appears better than, say, ours, when I don't believe that is in line with the actual quality.
Making the most by spending more? If so, then I agree. They should have upped the ante in terms of ambition as a club long ago. But Levy is a frugal fecker.
Tottenham players fear Mauricio Pochettino could leave in summer by Matt Law
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-fear-mauricio-pochettino-could-leave-summer/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-fear-mauricio-pochettino-could-leave-summer/
Alli is not frightening and overrated, Moura, Lamela are average wingers, Dier is an average CM, Davies is average. Those players would Not look out of place in a side that was just in the top 10. It's not as if they would look a class above at Palace for example.
Seeing that he is not good at winning trophies and he is so good at building teams with no budget we should make him DOF .
Well that's just it. Don't look at them as Spurs, and what you expect Spurs to achieve, look at the squad they have and what you think those players should acheive. If you replaced the United squad with Spurs and we finished bottom of our champions league group and failed to get anywhere near the title over the last 4 years, do you think people would think that's been an acheivement considering the level of the playing staff? I don't.
At the start of each season most people say Spurs will fall away and their best chance has come and gone yet when they finish inside the CL places and as of now had the best start to a PL season in their history they are underachievers.
It's like people take their progress as an affront while other clubs are throwing 100s of millions each summer. If this set of players were so talented that their success is natural growth of a player's potential, rather than the coaching/structure then how did they sign the likes of Davies, Trippier, Alderweireld, Wanyama and Alli for about £35m and without any competition? Well apart from Southampton who had an agreed fee with Atletico Madrid for Toby.
Two years ago they lined up with Rose and Walker. Walker was being rotated with Kyle Naughton the season before Pochettino arrived. Rose signed a new deal right after Pochettino arrived and the reaction from Tottenham fans to that news:
Under Pochettino's guidance Rose became an England international and for a period of time arguably the best left back in the league. This forum had United fans having him in their transfer wishlists for prices up to £50m. Now we have people saying Ben Davies will get in our team. Maybe there's an obvious coincidence.
Walker became a £50m player under Poch good enough for Guardiola to buy.
Who has said that? Several times I have said they have done a great job building the team they have. But there's a marked difference in praising Poch for building a great side, and him getting those great players competing at their highest level.
The majority of them were very well thought of when purchased. It's been a very good scouting job. Have the coaches improved the players? Of course. Have they turned average players into class playersa? Absolutely not.
Oh come on. The same anecdotal evidence can be applied to any number of clubs, players and managers. Just have a look at Luke Shaw and the reactions he's got just a few months ago. Would you say Jose has done an impressive job coaching him too?
Luke Shaw was a world record fee for a teenager four years ago. He showed glimpses of quality under Van Gaal before the horrific injury and needed a run of games to prove his quality which a lot of others were saying. People knew what he could be capable of. He's 23 now. Four years ago Luke Shaw was in the PFA Team of the Year as a teenager (voted by players), made it to the World Cup squad that summer and earned his big move from that. Pochettino was his manager for what it's worth.
It's not any way near comparable to Danny Rose who was 24 when Pochettino arrived and not showing any sign of becoming a top four player.