Would Poch win with a small team?
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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Pochettino is an excellent manager. Not on the same level as Jose but he has plenty of time to make the final jump to that plane. And no, that jump isn't winning the Carling Cup, or a one off minor trophy.
PL or CL title then?
I must admit I've changed my mind on Poch, if getting a serial winner like Jose doesn't bring the big results then lets just say feck it and go back to square one and let Poch come in and build a side like he's done at Spurs
If Pochettino had the same trajectory as Simeone over the next few years (PL title/consistent challengers, EL title, CL finalist/consistent semi-finalists) I think that would be sufficient.
If things don’t work out for us with mourinho, hope they do, pochettino would be a good choice, mainly because he punches above his weight at clubs with tight transfer budgets and the glazers have obviously restricted our managers in that area, relatively speaking.
But he would be far from perfect. Mourinho is our man I believe and hope we keep up our recent form. I’d be happy with top 4, seeing as we didn’t get the extra 2 or 3 players needed.
It’s a pity some United fans hate mourinho, but that’s the way of it.
But he would be far from perfect. Mourinho is our man I believe and hope we keep up our recent form. I’d be happy with top 4, seeing as we didn’t get the extra 2 or 3 players needed.
It’s a pity some United fans hate mourinho, but that’s the way of it.
In today’s market, not really, considering what needed to be done and still does.
For the last ten years we’ve backed away from players because of an extra few million. Most recently, the centre back and winger needed.
I think we’ve spent something like 300 mill under Mourinho. Most average to above average players nowadays are worth 50 mill. So that’s about 6 players. Pogba was nearly a third of that figure.
Relatively speaking, there is clearly a budget. My guess is around 150mil. Which would be fine if we didn’t need 4 or 5 top players every summer.
oh yeah glad to know your amazing opinion
Don't understand why losing to Inter away (or Liverpool winning at home vs PSG for that matter) is such a big deal. Neither is a sensational result.
City v Lyon on the other hand...
City v Lyon on the other hand...
What is this stuff with people pretending Inter is a small club with mediocre players in the late 00s?
I think the issue with losing to Inter away was that they played terribly. They didn't have to be good to beat us, honestly for about 85 minutes they didn't threaten once and I've seen more quality from mid table PL sides. Then the fact we totally bottled it by somehow losing after being 1 up in the 85th .. it's the nature of the defeat. It leads to questions about Pochettino's ability to manage high level affairs, we've seen such questions before when we threw away all our good work against Juventus within a 5 minute period.
Remember few said none of our players are good enough to play for Spurs or something close to that when we lost 3-0 against them. Fast forward, they lost 3 in a row and we won 3 in a row and all away games too.
Not really? How much do you want to be spent?!
Over the last five years or so, you have spent unbelievable money, hundreds upon hundreds of millions have been available for transfers. That isn't a 'tight budget', not relatively speaking. You might think more needs to be done, but when you're spending more than nearly anybody else you can't complain about investment.
People are like that. Everyone is quick to dismiss what Jose has achieved. He is hell bent on achieving success with us. Even if we had Guardiola there will be some moaners around.
We can't really know, can we? We can only speculate. The only sure thing is what has happened before. Jose has won silverware with underdogs and favourites, Poch has done neither.
I like Pochettino. He is an exceptional coach and as shown that he is able to challenge with relatively little due to the improvements that he and his staff are able to bring about in the players. It's a little sad, for him, that despite bringing together a really good team, he is still unable to win a trophy.
At the moment, he is struggling to become a really great manager as he and his team lack that final ingredient. And with the passing of time, they could lose out on this current project as players leave or lose their prime years. I think that he would benefit from having some investments in the squad. It wouldn't be a guarantee of success but, he is working at a disadvantage when compared to the other top 6 managers.
At the moment, he is struggling to become a really great manager as he and his team lack that final ingredient. And with the passing of time, they could lose out on this current project as players leave or lose their prime years. I think that he would benefit from having some investments in the squad. It wouldn't be a guarantee of success but, he is working at a disadvantage when compared to the other top 6 managers.
It is true that Poch hasn't spent money compared to the other managers, and that he has done great to build the side he has on a relatively shoestring budget. That said, once you've managed to build a fantastic side.. you need to then take advantage of the fact you have built a 'top class' outfit and IMO he just hasn't shown enough tactical acumen or man-management quality to push his boys over the finish line.
Jose and Klopp have proven that they can win titles with teams built on small budgets. In fact you can add Emery to that list too who is at least a proven cup winner. They have therefore earned the right to now be able to spend big money at big clubs. Poch had a weak league during the peak of this Spurs side to take advantage of and yet still somehow finished below Leicester and Arsenal ffs... his big match record in general has been atrocious - last I remembered it was comfortably the worst of all the top 6 managers (pre recent changes).
There is no guarantee that if Poch was at a big club, with a big budget he would rectify the flaws he has shown at Spurs. Of course he could do a Modric/Bale and leave them and turn into a managerial superstar.. he clearly has a lot of talent, but IMO whilst he remains at Spurs, he won't lift a trophy.
Jose and Klopp have proven that they can win titles with teams built on small budgets. In fact you can add Emery to that list too who is at least a proven cup winner. They have therefore earned the right to now be able to spend big money at big clubs. Poch had a weak league during the peak of this Spurs side to take advantage of and yet still somehow finished below Leicester and Arsenal ffs... his big match record in general has been atrocious - last I remembered it was comfortably the worst of all the top 6 managers (pre recent changes).
There is no guarantee that if Poch was at a big club, with a big budget he would rectify the flaws he has shown at Spurs. Of course he could do a Modric/Bale and leave them and turn into a managerial superstar.. he clearly has a lot of talent, but IMO whilst he remains at Spurs, he won't lift a trophy.
Certainly not on current form!
If only the thread title was "Is Mauricio Pochettino a good manager?"...
The caf has this funny things.
They're quick to dismiss people (player, manager) that has actually been there done it in favor of those who they actually speculate will have done it better if they'd been there.
They're quick to dismiss people (player, manager) that has actually been there done it in favor of those who they actually speculate will have done it better if they'd been there.
Who have "relatively speaking" Glazers restricted so far?
In away games though won his last two. His record at home is fine.
I know. I will share it with you every time.
Absolutely, I myself don't really like the guy and, as said, don't really rate him as high as the most here but would find it difficult to call him a bad/shit manager, apart from taking the piss. He's done good job at SOTON, good job at Spuds and deserves credit where it's due. Whether he can have the same impact at a club with bigger resources remains to be seen and personally I wouldn't want my club to be the testing field for that.
Simeone started winning trophies from his first season with Atletico. He got the job in December and in 6 months he was winning the Europe League. He then landed the cup in his second year, following it by a league title (overlapping the 2 giants with next to none investment) and CL final in his third year.
This is Poch's 5 year and he reached only one final.
You're disrespecting Simeone with this kind of comparison all honestly.
Pedro and Willian can play in his position. Not bad replacements imho
Tottenham and their horrible, nightmarish September. Looks like August was a mirage and they are already feeling the consequences of their awful summer transfer window.
I wonder if two more consecutive defeats shouldn't be enough to sack Poch.
I wonder if two more consecutive defeats shouldn't be enough to sack Poch.
You need to relax first of all.
I said if Pochettino can demonstrate with Tottenham what Simeone did with Atletico then it would place Pochettino in that elite tier. Nowhere did I state that Pochettino is better.
If he needs 5 years to do what Simeone did in half season, that's actually not good enough.
Simeone has basically did everything entering his 4th year with Atletico.
They can't execute half of what Hazard can do.
God no. Pochettino has done more than enough at the club to have earned not being sacked for having an off season. We've had a few bad results (vs a high performing side away, vs Inter away and vs Liverpool) but we're still only 3 points off being in the top four. If we lost vs Brighton then Watford in the league cup that still would be nowhere near enough for the sack, we'd be only 6 points off the pace.
Especially since he simply wasn't backed in the market whatsoever. It's very clear the blame for our poor start doesn't solely lie with him.
I think they can do a serviceable job. Obviously if they were on his level they would be starters and not bench players. So as far as squad deph goes i think Pedro and Willian is pretty good cover for Hazard.
Anyway, it looks like Poch is in the situation Mou, let's say "was" (still is?) in Aug.
In my opinion, Poch should be sacked if he finishes 4th in the ChL group stage (finishing 3rd at least would mean being the clear favorites for winning the Europa League).
In my opinion, Poch should be sacked if he finishes 4th in the ChL group stage (finishing 3rd at least would mean being the clear favorites for winning the Europa League).
I agree.
Oh yeah it's all luck.
I think you make the mistake assuming I'm as polarised as you. I do not consider it "all luck". I just think he got a bit more lucky than most managers usually do. Just like Ranieri got with Leicester. I'm not saying they did not do a great job to win. But in my opinion one tend to underestimate luck and timing. Ranieri had great timing with Leicester and a fair bit of luck. It does not change the fact that it was an amazing achievement. With Porto I felt that Mourinho had a fair bit of luck with the opponents he drew. I think the timing of his win was very fortunate too. I think because he was a very successful young manager he got the chance to coach a team that was willing to spend approx. 50 % more than the biggest team in PL at the time (Man Utd), and that his success with that team further elevated his status at the time. But thats not something new. Success breeds success.
Its a bit of the same case with Pep Guardiola. He had quite a bit of luck with the timing of when he took charge of Barcelona. Several people have made the case of how Spain and Germany won the world cup when Pep was in charge of the best team in Spain and Germany. But that is probably looking at it from the wrong angle in my opinion. Spain won the Euros the same summer Pep took charge of Barcelona. Several of the players on that fantastic Spain team was key players in Barcelona. Xavi, Iniesta and Puyol was three exceptionally talented players. Furthermore, a once in a generation talent in the form of Messi was there. He made the most of that team, but many managers would have done great with those players. He then took charge of one of the best teams of the last decade and had great results (but not better than the former coach). The results with these two teams gave him the chance to take charge of a team with unlimited spending power.
In my opinion, Pochettinos luck and timing has not been that great. He has not been given the chance to be in charge of a team were you should expect him to win. In my opinion, this is not due to him not being a good coach. The last few years he has performed better than most in terms of getting much out of limited resources.
To conclude, in my opinion Guardiola and Mourinho are among the best in the world. But they have also had a lot of luck and good timing ensuring their exeptional successfull carriers. Compared to for instance Sir Alex Ferguson I feel that their timing and luck has played a bigger part. Sir Alex Ferguson knew that it would have been easier leaving Man Utd in 2002 or 2003. Maybe he could have taken charge of a big team in Europa somewhere. But he stayed. Rebuilt the team. Knocking new competition of the perch (even spending a lot less than them in the pursuit). Thats what impress me the most about Fergusons carrier. The fact that he did it over and over. Not with special resources and during short periods in clubs he cherry-picked. Man Utd was not exactly Leicester in terms of resources, but we spent a lot less than some of the others teams in the period from 2003 to 2006. And he managed to get through some rough patches. Patches I'm sure Pep would have ensured he would not have to deal with.
For me its a bit similar with Klopp. And to be honest, I think its a bit similar for Mourinho this time at Man Utd. And I'm so impressed by how he has handled the situation the last three weeks. Its similar to something Ferguson could have done. A rant and a few outbursts to the media and pundits, but somehow pulling the club together creating a siege-mentality. In the past, he has struggled in this situation and I'm so happy to see how he has handled this now. If he somehow ends up winning something significant this year, it will be one of the most impressive performances of a manager this decade. He will need a bit of luck to do it, but first and foremost it will be a huge achievement from him.
Funny how everyone has suddenly forgotten he manages spurs. Someone even says they should be considering sacking him, madness.
Football fans are more reactive than ever.
2 or 3 bad games in a row can completely change a player or manager’s reputation.
2 or 3 bad games in a row can completely change a player or manager’s reputation.
Pochettino is cursed to bottle high pressure situations as long as he manages Spurs. He needs to leave Spurs so he can get some luck and finally win everything. If only he didn't sign a 5 year extension.
Fergie, Moyes, van gaal and mourinho.
Most recently the refusal to pay the money needed for a centre back and right winger.
Enough to buy another 2 or 3 top players. This is what has been needed at United since scholes wound down and Ronaldo left.
We bought Valencia and Michael Owen to replace Ronaldo.
Then when fergie left we tried to skimp on transfers and it massively backfired for the already inept moyes.
Tried to play catch up with van gaal, who bought poorly, or could also easily have been forced to buy ‘budget’ players.
We’ve needed a complete overhaul since moyes’ season, it was botched and then mourinho took over and bought better but as we saw in the last transfer window, was restricted in buying a centre half and likely a winger.
In today’s market, for a club up there with the likes of Real Madrid, 300 million is fairly conservative for what was needed. Average players go for 50 million nowadays, and we need top players.
Another 2 or 3 top players are needed, so relatively speaking, our managers have been restricted.
We did spend in the summer though. all be it in my opinion a bit hit and miss.
I never would have signed Fred and i certainly wouldn't have spent anywhere near what we did on him. I hope I am wrong about him and he turns in to a world class player, but i just can't see it. Dalot looks like a possibly very good full back for the future. He is clearly the long term replacement for Valencia. We did buy a budget 3rd choice goalkeeper.
We have spent silly money under Jose. I think to say that we are restricted in our spending is a bit disingenuous. Ok, so we didn't sign the CB that we wanted. But we have spent out on bailly and Lindelof. If neither player are up to scratch then who's fault is that?