A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

Walters_19_MuFc said:
To be fair, Spurs dominated Juve in both legs. Very unlucky not to go through.
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No, 90% of the time it was Tottenham's cbs with the ball. They'd make a pass forward, the midfielders wouldn't find any runners and give it back to the cbs. Until the last 20 mins or so, Juve would pounce soon as Tottenham got toward the final third and win the ball back. That's not dominating, that's shit possession, I'd be happy to let their cbs have the ball all day, they're not going to do anything with it.

That's fine if you're holding a lead, but they failed at that. Lost that lead through Allegri making a tactical switch around 60 mins in and Poch not reacting to it, so they don't really deserve praise, they got done and their individual quality couldn't bale them out. Shame they didn't go through based on the performance in Turin but they were shit today.
 
Parry Gallister said:
No, 90% of the time it was Tottenham's cbs with the ball. They'd make a pass forward, the midfielders wouldn't find any runners and give it back to the cbs. Until the last 20 mins or so, Juve would pounce soon as Tottenham got toward the final third and win the ball back. That's not dominating, that's shit possession, I'd be happy to let their cbs have the ball all day, they're not going to do anything with it.
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I must have been watching a different game then.

What I saw, especially in the first half, was Alli and Eriksen in between the lines of Juve and Son causing havoc down the left. Changed when Allegri made a sub around 60th min.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
I must have been watching a different game then.

What I saw, especially in the first half, was Alli and Eriksen in between the lines of Juve and Son causing havoc down the left. Changed when Allegri made a sub around 60th min.
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You must have replied while I was editing my op. Havoc is more than one goal imo, they w. were on top but didn't do much special in the first half. Son did ok, Alli did until he got kicked a bit, Eriksen was tidy but didn't effect the match. Juve were not great. The second half drove the first out of my mind it was so poor from Spurs, zombie possession.
 
He deserves criticism for the lack of trophies because he doesn't even try with the league cup and fa cup, but he deserves credit for the way he's brought them up to the standards they are. Huge credit to do as well as they did in their CL run.
 
Yagami said:
He deserves criticism for the lack of trophies because he doesn't even try with the league cup and fa cup, but he deserves credit for the way he's brought them up to the standards they are. Huge credit to do as well as they did in their CL run.
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I think you're being a bit harsh when you suggest he doesn't even try to win trophies. I thought they were very unlucky last year to Chelsea in the FA Cup for example. Winning the LC or FA is a thrill no top four can ever match but on the other, it doesn't really suggest quality. Martinez's Wigan won the FA Cup and the last four were won by Wenger and Van Gaal, two managers no one would argue did a good job over that period. Pochettino in that sense did more over the same time frame when you look at the way his team plays, to suggest that he can be a great winning coach.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Look where they were before he arrived. Look where they are now.

He's been great for them. Plays an attractive style of football and he might be found out if he goes to a bigger club, but I don't see how anyone can give him anything but 10/10 for his job at spurs.
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What?! They won the League Cup under Ramos, they were in the Champions League quarter finals under Redknapp. They got more points under AVB and Sherwood than they have done in two of Pochettino's three seasons. You'd think he had taken over Newcastle the way people go on.

They're still the same old easy-on-the-eye bottle jobs. The day a few key men, or just Kane, departs is the day the Spurs "project" dissolves.

If they don't win the FA Cup with the semis and the final at home, perception will start to swing.
 
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I thought Poch showed his lack of experience a bit tonight, when Juve got the first after switching shape he didn't react to the damage Juve's new width was causing. I think he should have gotten Wanyama on for Dele, dropped Dier between the CB's and had Dembele and Wanyama patrol the channels in front of them, with Eriksen shifting to #10 behind Kane and Son.
 
Theonas said:
I think you're being a bit harsh when you suggest he doesn't even try to win trophies. I thought they were very unlucky last year to Chelsea in the FA Cup for example. Winning the LC or FA is a thrill no top four can ever match but on the other, it doesn't really suggest quality. Martinez's Wigan won the FA Cup and the last four were won by Wenger and Van Gaal, two managers no one would argue did a good job over that period. Pochettino in that sense did more over the same time frame when you look at the way his team plays, to suggest that he can be a great winning coach.
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I have a feeling even if they win the FA Cup the criticism would not die.
 
Theonas said:
I think you're being a bit harsh when you suggest he doesn't even try to win trophies. I thought they were very unlucky last year to Chelsea in the FA Cup for example. Winning the LC or FA is a thrill no top four can ever match but on the other, it doesn't really suggest quality. Martinez's Wigan won the FA Cup and the last four were won by Wenger and Van Gaal, two managers no one would argue did a good job over that period. Pochettino in that sense did more over the same time frame when you look at the way his team plays, to suggest that he can be a great winning coach.
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Maybe I am being too harsh (though I don't mean trophies in general - just the league/fa cups) but I always feel like those are an afterthought for him which I can understand considering their squad depth isn't that of the bigger teams in the league and he wants to prioritise winning the league/securing CL footy, but I think if he took them more seriously he could win them and get that monkey off his back.

For what it's worth, I rate Poch as the 2nd best coach in the league so I'm not trying to diminish what he's achieved with Spurs. I completely agree with what you're saying in regards to Poch doing more over that time period than Wenger/LVG and, personally, have wanted him here since 12/13!
 
Not sure how much Pochettino is to blame for those goals, grave errors from multiple players. Perhaps he needs to sharpen the attitude somehow.

Not being able to do anything against 11 Juve defenders the last part of the game is fair as well I think, they're excellent at doing that.
 
Yagami said:
Maybe I am being too harsh (though I don't mean trophies in general - just the league/fa cups) but I always feel like those are an afterthought for him which I can understand considering their squad depth isn't that of the bigger teams in the league and he wants to prioritise winning the league/securing CL footy, but I think if he took them more seriously he could win them and get that monkey off his back.

For what it's worth, I rate Poch as the 2nd best coach in the league so I'm not trying to diminish what he's achieved with Spurs. I completely agree with what you're saying in regards to Poch doing more over that time period than Wenger/LVG and, personally, have wanted him here since 12/13!
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Fair enough. I don't think we disagree about his work. I think the only difference is I happen to admire him for thinking big even knowing that a League Cup win would get him easy headlines. He might be too ambitious for his own good in that regard and I do think that with the financial and status inferiority of his club, he will always be fighting against the odds when it comes to the CL and the league. It suggests to me that he prioritizes improving the team and its playing style over one off victories like Juande Ramos or Roberto Martinez who got that one big moment but did not do anything to improve their teams for any long term substance.
 
He freezes up in big games and doesn’t know how to set up tactically nor adjust.

Not the manager a world class club should be looking at imho until he proves otherwise. Or unless a world class club wants to roll the dice and take a gamble on him.
 
Can we stop with this Spurs are a wee little club and their quality shouldn't be judged based on trophies nonsense? There's a plethora of teams who play great football who don't win shit, Spurs are no different. Great teams and great managers win trophies, it's that simple. No-one would give a shit how good City were playing this season if it wasn't leading to wins.

Also to suggest he shouldn't be winning anything because of the resources he has available is just short-sighted. Regardless of how much money they've spent, they have a squad capable of winning trophies. They have the best striker on the planet who is scoring at comparable rates to arguably the best player of all time in Messi. They have Eriksen, Alli, Son. They have a defence which is probably the best in the league, their midfield is also nothing to be scoffed at.

It's all excuses for Spurs and Poch, them not winning isn't good enough with the squad they have available. If their squad really is incapable of competing for top trophies, it makes Poch coming out and basically publicly saying he isn't aiming for minor trophies even more ridiculous.

He deserves credit for getting them playing great football, but that's where it ends. The most important part of a club is turning that football into trophies and so far, he's shown that he's very stubborn in his set up and is prone to getting outdone tactically by certain managers. He's a great manager no doubt, but if we were going to go down that route I'd much rather Jardim who's just a better manager.
 
Outclassed by the more experienced Allegri and team tonight. Switching to to 4-4-2 changed the game, Spurs didn't react and Juve shut up shop.
 
Kag said:
They got a lot of stick for that game and rightly so.

Pochettino has done an excellent job at Spurs. If they were regularly finishing fifth I'd argue he'd have them around about where they should be. That they do better is a testament to his coaching, as well as the brilliance of Harry Kane. In my opinion, anyway.

That doesn't mean I think he's perfect, or better than Mourinho, or infallible. But I don't think Pochettino's merits and credibility as a manager should hinge solely upon winning a trophy - or a loss to a savvy Juventus side. Spurs have no real right to be winning trophies, and I doubt many other managers would do so over there either.
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Fair points. I don't argue at these. Just your initial point about the other post. As I explained, that post was response to another post saying Poch shouldn't be questioned about this game.

Walters_19_MuFc said:
I think you may have taken the word 'unlucky' very literal. It was more a figure of speech. However, the other day, people, including myself, were saying Palace were 'unlucky' to lose. Definitely did enough to get something out of the game, in my opinion.

Moving to Spurs, having watched the first leg, where I felt they dominated Juve at their home ground, and doing the same at Wembley, I personally feel they were unlucky not to go through.
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Unlike CP, who got turned over by brilliant bit of individual play by our players (Matic, Alexis Sanchez deflected shot and Lukaku's composed finish); Poch on the other hands didn't react to Allegri's tactical change. The goals were results of tactical exploit.

We subbed McTominay off for Rashford as way to add more attacking power, but sacrifice some cover for the back. guess what CP exploited it with a second goal? They did well but we proved to be stronger and edged in individual quality. You can't say the same for Tottenham. Tottenham can boast about the domination as much as they can, they ain't better in creating clear cut chance in the first leg second half.
 
Make no mistake, this is a massive flop from Spurs.

Wenger understandably gets stick for his past decade. Wenger has also got three PL and seven FA Cups.

Poch is a myth.
 
Theonas said:
Fair enough. I don't think we disagree about his work. I think the only difference is I happen to admire him for thinking big even knowing that a League Cup win would get him easy headlines. He might be too ambitious for his own good in that regard and I do think that with the financial and status inferiority of his club, he will always be fighting against the odds when it comes to the CL and the league. It suggests to me that he prioritizes improving the team and its playing style over one off victories like Juande Ramos or Roberto Martinez who got that one big moment but did not do anything to improve their teams for any long term substance.
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I agree with your line of thinking but don't you think he is at the stage with his team quality and league position where he could make allownances for deeper run in domestic cup without jeapordising his team's Champions league place, with Chelsea in free fall he should make strong push for FA cup this season.
 
gajender said:
I agree with your line of thinking but don't you think he is at the stage with his team quality and league position where he could make allownances for deeper run in domestic cup without jeapordising his team's Champions league place, with Chelsea in free fall he should make strong push for FA cup this season.
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It’s all excuses.

Poch has never noticeably thrown in the towel in the League Cup, he just hasn’t been good enough to win it while juggling his squad.

Does make me laugh the free ride he gets, while city rivals Arsenal consistently win trophies and their manager gets hammered.
 
GlastonSpur said:
What they either ignore or don't know is that Spurs operate the most generous bonus system in the Prem.
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I heard a Spurs supporter talk about this in a pub. He echoed what you write here, saying that bonuses account for a substantial portion of the players' total remuneration.

He said that Harry Kane is on around 200k all in, which means 80k/week is bonuses. When you have £4M bonus added to your salary that's a big addition and probably why Kane is in no rush to leave for more money.
 
VancouverUtdFan said:
He freezes up in big games and doesn’t know how to set up tactically nor adjust.

Not the manager a world class club should be looking at imho until he proves otherwise. Or unless a world class club wants to roll the dice and take a gamble on him.
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Agree. This loss is on him, Tottenham seemed the better team, but they couldn’t defend their lead in the tie.
 
Tottenham seems like they only have one way to play. They are hard to beat, but beatable they are. Pochettino is a great manager, but knows not how to defend a lead in such an important game.
 
Feed Me said:
It’s all excuses.

Poch has never noticeably thrown in the towel in the League Cup, he just hasn’t been good enough to win it while juggling his squad.

Does make me laugh the free ride he gets, while city rivals Arsenal consistently win trophies and their manager gets hammered.
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Yep.

When it’s all said and done and you look back at Poch’s tenure with Spurs, you’ll always be able to say he was quite possibly everything...but a winner. And fact of the matter is that’s all that counts at the end.


manunited1919 said:
Agree. This loss is on him, Tottenham seemed the better team, but they couldn’t defend their lead in the tie.
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“There are many poets in football, but poets don’t win many titles”

- José Mourinho​
 
VancouverUtdFan said:
Yep.

When it’s all said and done and you look back at Poch’s tenure with Spurs, you’ll always be able to say he was quite possibly everything...but a winner. And fact of the matter is that’s all that counts at the end.
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All those fans following Spurs and loving Poch, they must all be holding their heads just like the guy in the TV at minute 87. That’s what happens to fans when a lead is thrown away because the manager just doesn’t know how to manage a game. Poch looked like a deer in the headlights.
 
So let me get this straight - when Spurs win, Poch is the best manager in the world who does wonders with a "limited" squad. When they lose, Poch is still a great manager that deserves credit for playing attractive football with a "limited" squad. This is some high-level bulshit right there.

Glad they lost, otherwise the wankfest and the Poch to United agenda would've been unbearable.
 
Borden said:
I'd bet my life that the same people using this game as evidence that Poch isn't a 'winner' will be the same people making excuses for Mourinho if we crash out in similar fashion against Sevilla next week.

Pochettino set Spurs up to dominate Juventus, and they did. They should have won this tie comfortably, so he's done his job. Maybe he could have made some tactical decisions differently, but Spurs still should have won this game comfortably. Which in itself is quite an achievement.
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:lol:
 
Feed Me said:
It’s all excuses.

Poch has never noticeably thrown in the towel in the League Cup, he just hasn’t been good enough to win it while juggling his squad.

Does make me laugh the free ride he gets, while city rivals Arsenal consistently win trophies and their manager gets hammered.
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I think reason for that is Wenger's star is on wane and Pochetinno is supposed to be next big thing in management who is punching above its weight at plucky underdogs Tottenham but yes excuses for Pochetinno seem to be wearing thin and soon enough he would come under greater scrutiny he needs to win something soon at Tottenham.
 
Borden said:
I'd bet my life that the same people using this game as evidence that Poch isn't a 'winner' will be the same people making excuses for Mourinho if we crash out in similar fashion against Sevilla next week.

Pochettino set Spurs up to dominate Juventus, and they did. They should have won this tie comfortably, so he's done his job. Maybe he could have made some tactical decisions differently, but Spurs still should have won this game comfortably. Which in itself is quite an achievement.
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“The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing.”
.... John Powell
 
Devil may care said:
I thought Poch showed his lack of experience a bit tonight, when Juve got the first after switching shape he didn't react to the damage Juve's new width was causing. I think he should have gotten Wanyama on for Dele, dropped Dier between the CB's and had Dembele and Wanyama patrol the channels in front of them, with Eriksen shifting to #10 behind Kane and Son.
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The real mistake was when Tottenham went ahead, they just continued doing the same they were doing before. They didn’t have a game plan. The second goal caught them with a high defensive line. They should have put bodies deeper, defended, and counterattacked. But Poch never taught them how to do that. One trick piny.
 
Although Poch could have done better, if that Kane header which was cleared off the line had gone in, who knows, maybe spurs would have changed it around.
Totally agree that Poch lacks the tactical flexibility but that's the same thing Klopp and even sometimes Pep has been accused of.

But Spurs had a very good run in the CL, I mean finishing above Madrid and Dortmund, defeating a CL specialist Madrid side are impressive feats.
Not just that, Spurs play good football and their signings under Poch have been absolutely phenomenal, not to mention the number of players who have improved under him

Is he ready for a top club? No, not yet, but I expect him to learn from these mistakes and mature into a top manager very soon.
 
Womp said:
Can we stop with this Spurs are a wee little club and their quality shouldn't be judged based on trophies nonsense? There's a plethora of teams who play great football who don't win shit, Spurs are no different. Great teams and great managers win trophies, it's that simple. No-one would give a shit how good City were playing this season if it wasn't leading to wins.

Also to suggest he shouldn't be winning anything because of the resources he has available is just short-sighted. Regardless of how much money they've spent, they have a squad capable of winning trophies. They have the best striker on the planet who is scoring at comparable rates to arguably the best player of all time in Messi. They have Eriksen, Alli, Son. They have a defence which is probably the best in the league, their midfield is also nothing to be scoffed at.

It's all excuses for Spurs and Poch, them not winning isn't good enough with the squad they have available. If their squad really is incapable of competing for top trophies, it makes Poch coming out and basically publicly saying he isn't aiming for minor trophies even more ridiculous.

He deserves credit for getting them playing great football, but that's where it ends. The most important part of a club is turning that football into trophies and so far, he's shown that he's very stubborn in his set up and is prone to getting outdone tactically by certain managers. He's a great manager no doubt, but if we were going to go down that route I'd much rather Jardim who's just a better manager.
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Apt.

Nothing more needs to be added.
 
Sanche7 said:
Although Poch could have done better, if that Kane header which was cleared off the line had gone in, who knows, maybe spurs would have changed it around.
Totally agree that Poch lacks the tactical flexibility but that's the same thing Klopp and even sometimes Pep has been accused of.

But Spurs had a very good run in the CL, I mean finishing above Madrid and Dortmund, defeating a CL specialist Madrid side are impressive feats.
Not just that, Spurs play good football and their signings under Poch have been absolutely phenomenal, not to mention the number of players who have improved under him

Is he ready for a top club? No, not yet, but I expect him to learn from these mistakes and mature into a top manager very soon.
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Kane was offside.
 
Just trying to remember....is there any top class manager who never won anything at a 'smaller' club or turned a smaller club into a trophy winner?

However way you look at it, Poch still has a lot to prove.
 
GM K said:
Just trying to remember....is there any top class manager who never won anything at a 'smaller' club or turned a smaller club into a trophy winner?

However way you look at it, Poch still has a lot to prove.
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SAF at Aberdeen?
 
Yeah Poch dominated Juve over two legs so hard he couldn't win a single fecking game against them and actually lost one.

Silent domination type of shit. Just like we were dominating the teams under LVG with 75% possession but still couldn't win games. At least LVG won a trophy.
 
Womp said:
He won multiple trophies at Aberdeen, did he not?
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In 8 years, he won 3 league titles, 4 Scottish cups (FA cups), 1 Scottish league cup, UEFA cup winners cup, UEFA super cup.

Man is a genius. GOAT.

In Aberdeen history, they won
4 league titles - SAF won 3 of them. They went 24 years without title.
7 FA cups - SAF won 4 of them.
They won only 1 Cup winners cup and Super cup, SAF won both.
They won 6 league cups, SAF won 1.
 
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evil_geko said:
What a strange response.

Yes, I am on a forum and Poch outplayed "one of the best managers in the world", who's gone through lucky.

And me being on a forum or not doesn't change that.
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This is what baffles me about modern football fans. A team players better because it is more attacking in approach and plays nice looking football but a team is 'lucky' when it defends tightly, is rugged and takes its chances well.

When are we going to realize that football is way more than playing nice and that defending is an art in itself?
 
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