A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

I have a horrible feeling that people will look back on this thread 3 years from now and wonder what we were thinking.

I love Ole and the results have picked up. However, aside from pressing I don't see any actual style of play and let's not forget we've lost to some dross this year... And we've lost lost many times.

Reunite Poch with Paul Mitchell as director of football and you have a seriously strong managment team going into the future. We won't do it of course, but I think we'll regret it.
 
he's nothing special. I would take Jose or LVG back over him any day. Solskjaer is better too. let him go to Bayern or wherever, i don't care. Just keep him away from United.
 
Very odd post.

You seem rather conflicted.
He would have earned it but we didn't go for him and he signed a long term contract at Spurs and then said he'd quit if they won the UCL where he didn't play Lucas Moura, said he wasn't involved in transfers, bought a crock in Sessegnon, sent out Jack Clarke on loan( who has hardly played), lost the dressing room, lost at Colchester, couldn't be arsed with domestic cup competitions. Plus there are are a whole lot of other reasons
Yet you believe that earns a shot at Utd. Brilliant!

It's not an odd post at all , you are using the last 6 months of his tenure and I am using all of it . Anyone who watches the premier League regularly can see the magnificent job that Poch did at Southampton and spurs . The whole not winning trophies argument is so dumb it's not even worth replying to
 
Hopefully he wants a bit of a holiday before returning back to work. That gives us enough time to see what Ole is really about this season before moving.
 
This transfer window fixed the defense but made the rest of the squad actually. I doubt anyone will think the current squad after the last window is actually in any way stronger than the squad of the previous 2 seasons so I don't get that great rebuilding project Ole has done.

More so I actually think his management of the transfer window was poor. Prioritizing the defense and putting the majority of budget in it while his midfield and attack were screaming in need of some players.

I've seen you write this about 10 times in different threads.

Which transfers away has Ole done that he should not have done? Darmian,Valencia and Sanchez were utterly useless and Lukaku wanted away. Smalling being better than Lindelof is debatable and even then hes just on loan so we can bring him back if we want

Literally everyone saw we needed reinforcements in more areas than defense, but no one knows the exact reason why we dont got more players in the summer, but there have been no reports of Ole turning down anyone we had lined up
 
It's not an odd post at all , you are using the last 6 months of his tenure and I am using all of it . Anyone who watches the premier League regularly can see the magnificent job that Poch did at Southampton and spurs . The whole not winning trophies argument is so dumb it's not even worth replying to
Yet you did. And we have a coach who only won at Molde, yet we use the Cardiff experience as a stick to beat him with.

We need a coach who can at least look like he can get us a title. If you think Poch is your man, fair enough. He blew it big time in 2 finals IMO.

Keep flying the Poch flag though, it's amusing
 
A lot of people are gonna be surprised when Poch inevitably wins trophies at bigger clubs than Spurs.
 
Yet you did. And we have a coach who only won at Molde, yet we use the Cardiff experience as a stick to beat him with.

We need a coach who can at least look like he can get us a title. If you think Poch is your man, fair enough. He blew it big time in 2 finals IMO.

Keep flying the Poch flag though, it's amusing

It really isn't as amusing as believing that Ole vs Poch is even a contest in any way or form . If ole got sacked tomorrow he wouldn't get another pl job , might not even get a championship job while Pochettino will have tons of suitors from across Europe
 
It really isn't as amusing as believing that Ole vs Poch is even a contest in any way or form . If ole got sacked tomorrow he wouldn't get another pl job , might not even get a championship job while Pochettino will have tons of suitors from across Europe

The love in for Ole (the manager) is strong in some. I wonder how the same moody and blunt Jose would've faired if he had scored a CL winning goal for us in his past.
Surely managing is a results business and that is why Poch, Jose amongst many others have lost their jobs. Ole on the other hand...
 
I've seen you write this about 10 times in different threads.

Which transfers away has Ole done that he should not have done? Darmian,Valencia and Sanchez were utterly useless and Lukaku wanted away. Smalling being better than Lindelof is debatable and even then hes just on loan so we can bring him back if we want

Literally everyone saw we needed reinforcements in more areas than defense, but no one knows the exact reason why we dont got more players in the summer, but there have been no reports of Ole turning down anyone we had lined up

Look, I told you we have discussed this several times already, so I'm honestly far from being interested in repeated the same discussion with the same poster again but if you insist I will just repeat what I told you anyway. Just because you don't rate Fellaini, Smalling, Lukaku and Herrera it doesn't mean they weren't viable squad options, and let's imagine the miracle they are all shite or asked to leave at the same time, he knew all this from the get go and yet decided to splash the entire budget on defense and spend 80m on a CB. We had spent 150. What were you expecting United to spend, 300? He decided to prioritize the defense and put the most money in Maguire, saying himself to the official website after this signing that he was his top priority target.

I found the argument of not bringing more players is bizarre when we decided to spend 130m alone on a CB and RB, while our budget every summer since LvG took over has been usually in the same range of 150. We weren't going to spend plus 200m this summer. We didn't spend 50m ffs. After spending 150m we weren't going to pay much more for any upcoming player. We just spread the money poorly and whose responsibility is that?

It's Ole's responsibility. He chose the defense as his prime target and favored it on midfield and attack. We decide to splash the cash on Maguire instead of Longstaff, and were trying to get a backup option only for striker position in the last few days in the window.

Maybe if Ole has any sense of squad building he would have looked at the squad and thought it will be more logical to keep Smalling for one more year, sign Maguire next summer and focus the budget on a midfielder and forward better. Instead of those 80m spent on Maguire we could have spent 50m on Longstaff and spent maybe 30-40m to get a decent striker option, but nope, we threw our entire budget at Maguire.

Now, we can talk as much as we want if prioritizing the defense is right or not but it won't change the fact Ole isn't blameless at all for how the summer window has been planned. He thought the defense is more important and urgent issue than the midfield and preferred to focus spending on it first then trying to get a cheap backup striker by the end of day. I doubt Woodward knew a shite about football to think which position is more urgent to reinforce.

One point clear is after spending 150m including 80m it's fantasy to expect another 50-60m for another player in summer, never "more" players. Ole should have known that and yet he took his decision. It's his own responsibility.
 
It's one thing debating - that's what a forum is for, but why are you guys so aggressive spouting fecking football opinions, ffs? :lol:

Calling people names, or grouping people together and calling them clueless or morons doesn't give your opinions any more validity.

I've had the same line of thinking about the Cafe for a while.
 
This is a tough spot for United.

They have only recently given the job to OGS and cannot just replace him because Poch has suddenly become available.

I will back OGS until the cows come home ( even my son is called Oli as he was born in July 99 ;) ) but in fairness he has done a average job so far but this season he has been without two crucial players in Martial and Pogba for most part, take those two out and we are left with a bang average squad so im willing to see how he does this season with them coming back and possible new signings in January.

But the lure of Poch is huge, and Id be quite happy if United asked Poch to have a sabbatical until the end of the season and if OGS has us finishing 6th or 7th without showing too much promise going forward then Id sadly let him go and give Poch his chance.

Would Poch even wait on United until the summer? Im not sure, especially if OGS does ok and we decide to keep him anyway.
 
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It's got nothing to do with heads up asses. If you think Ole is a better manager then Poch your about as useless as your name on a football forum.

The relativity of Ole being sacked with Cardiff is valid because he relegated a premier league team. Manchester United play in the English league therefore our domestic success is based in the premier league. Klopp got relegated in the Germany has this influenced his capabilities in England ? Let's make it even more simplistic for the lackluster, Poch has achieved more in English football than what Solskjaer has.

Of all the straw cluthing i have seen, this one has to be the worst one. If someone relegates Bayern or Juventus, thats clearly a lot, lot worse than someone going down with Norwich, Cardiff or Derby. Cardiff were in absolute meltdown when Ole took over, he failed to save them and Pochettionos career at Espanyol was not that great either as he too got them relegated, but in both cases its absurd to put the blame square on the manager. Those were struggling clubs

In terms of medals in England, Poch and Ole has the exact same amount, the difference is that the former has been here for 5x as long. This whole nonsense of "PL-proven" this and PL-proven that is such a bore. Klopp or Pep was not PL-proven, so clearly they had no chance in England right? Same goes for all these up and coming managers in Germany and Holland. Just because they manage in a different country does not make their experience irrelevant
 
Yet you did. And we have a coach who only won at Molde, yet we use the Cardiff experience as a stick to beat him with.

We need a coach who can at least look like he can get us a title. If you think Poch is your man, fair enough. He blew it big time in 2 finals IMO.

Keep flying the Poch flag though, it's amusing

I thoroughly dislike these kinda comments. Losing a final where your opponent is the clear favorite is not "blowing it big time."

He faced superior teams and superior managers in both finals. Doesn't mean he blew it.
 
Look, I told you we have discussed this several times already, so I'm honestly far from being interested in repeated the same discussion with the same poster again but if you insist I will just repeat what I told you anyway. Just because you don't rate Fellaini, Smalling, Lukaku and Herrera it doesn't mean they weren't viable squad options, and let's imagine the miracle they are all shite or asked to leave at the same time, he knew all this from the get go and yet decided to splash the entire budget on defense and spend 80m on a CB. We had spent 150. What were you expecting United to spend, 300? He decided to prioritize the defense and put the most money in Maguire, saying himself to the official website after this signing that he was his top priority target.

I found the argument of not bringing more players is bizarre when we decided to spend 130m alone on a CB and RB, while our budget every summer since LvG took over has been usually in the same range of 150. We weren't going to spend plus 200m this summer. We didn't spend 50m ffs. After spending 150m we weren't going to pay much more for any upcoming player. We just spread the money poorly and whose responsibility is that?

It's Ole's responsibility. He chose the defense as his prime target and favored it on midfield and attack. We decide to splash the cash on Maguire instead of Longstaff, and were trying to get a backup option only for striker position in the last few days in the window.

Maybe if Ole has any sense of squad building he would have looked at the squad and thought it will be more logical to keep Smalling for one more year, sign Maguire next summer and focus the budget on a midfielder and forward better. Instead of those 80m spent on Maguire we could have spent 50m on Longstaff and spent maybe 30-40m to get a decent striker option, but nope, we threw our entire budget at Maguire.

Now, we can talk as much as we want if prioritizing the defense is right or not but it won't change the fact Ole isn't blameless at all for how the summer window has been planned. He thought the defense is more important and urgent issue than the midfield and preferred to focus spending on it first then trying to get a cheap backup striker by the end of day. I doubt Woodward knew a shite about football to think which position is more urgent to reinforce.

One point clear is after spending 150m including 80m it's fantasy to expect another 50-60m for another player in summer, never "more" players. Ole should have known that and yet he took his decision. It's his own responsibility.

None of us have any idea what Ole was told and how big his budget was, and while Maguire indeed was expensive, that is what you have to pay for English internationals. We have lacked a leader in the back since Rio/Vidic left and Maguire brings just that. Much better to spend 80 on one good CB instead of spending 3x30 on mediocre ones like we have the last years.

AWB was also expensive, but well worth the money. His defensive record is the best in Europe and if he can improve his offensive game we're gone have RB settled for 6-7 years at least. Considering we have had Young and Valencia there its a big, big upgrade

And considering we sold Lukaku, we did not really spend all that much (around 90 million). Considering Jose got to spend 130 and 150 his two first years, Ole did not splash around cash like some madman either. If anything, the squad this summer was in much greater need of investment than it was under Jose, with Herrera gone (due to Woody fecking around) and Mata and Matic clearly starting to fade badly.

If all we get to spend each year is below 100 million net, this rebuild is going to take ages, regardless of who is manager.
 
I thoroughly dislike these kinda comments. Losing a final where your opponent is the clear favorite is not "blowing it big time."

He faced superior teams and superior managers in both finals. Doesn't mean he blew it.

Liverpool and klopp were serial final losers at that point. That final was there to be won for spurs.
 
None of us have any idea what Ole was told and how big his budget was, and while Maguire indeed was expensive, that is what you have to pay for English internationals. We have lacked a leader in the back since Rio/Vidic left and Maguire brings just that. Much better to spend 80 on one good CB instead of spending 3x30 on mediocre ones like we have the last years.

AWB was also expensive, but well worth the money. His defensive record is the best in Europe and if he can improve his offensive game we're gone have RB settled for 6-7 years at least. Considering we have had Young and Valencia there its a big, big upgrade

And considering we sold Lukaku, we did not really spend all that much (around 90 million). Considering Jose got to spend 130 and 150 his two first years, Ole did not splash around cash like some madman either. If anything, the squad this summer was in much greater need of investment than it was under Jose, with Herrera gone (due to Woody fecking around) and Mata and Matic clearly starting to fade badly.

If all we get to spend each year is below 100 million net, this rebuild is going to take ages, regardless of who is manager.

Lukaku was sold in the last day of the market. Hardly any effective on the 150m spent before selling him. Not like we cashed on him first before signing Maguire and AWB. He left on deadline.

Ole got a 150m spending transfer business, the same budget LVG and Mourinho got in all their seasons (bar Mourinho last one due to falling with the board), so he wasn't treated any different from the rest. We weren't going to spend 200-300m in a summer, we didn't under previous 3 managers and we won't under next manager either.

It's his job as a coach to choose which players are more urgently needed, deserve to put the money in and get quickly and earlier while leaving the less important positions later on to see if there's enough money to buy them or not. He did made his choice. We splashed 80m on Maguire. So I don't get how he can't responsible for the state of the squad or how the summer market went on. I'm not going to talk about if Maguire deserves his price or not, if his choice was right or not, but it's his own business and he will take full responsibility for it. Blaming Ed alone is very naive when we know he knows feck all about how to build a team.
 
Where does Poch go next?

Madrid?, United? what about an outside bet, he takes the rest of this season off, then rocks up at...City! Next year???

Peps been looking pe** off lately fed up with all the hassle with UEFA and that City fans are not interested in CL success and it seems never will be, his wife has already returned home and after the Liverpool match, he decides to depart end of this season... well we can dream!
 
Liverpool and klopp were serial final losers at that point. That final was there to be won for spurs.

:rolleyes:

Tabloid analysis of looking at headline narratives rather than the actual teams and game.
 
I thoroughly dislike these kinda comments. Losing a final where your opponent is the clear favorite is not "blowing it big time."

He faced superior teams and superior managers in both finals. Doesn't mean he blew it.

His team looked scared and not ready to fight for a trophy at all. Probably the most tame performance I've seen in a final for a long long time.
 
This thread is exactly the same as the ones we had when Klopp left Dortmund and LVG was doing shit but had a few wins just around that time.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/jurgen-klopp.403511/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/klopp-confirmed-liverpool-manager.409810/

Here is clearly a talented manager we'd have died to have last summer, but he's had a bad season and everyone wants to stick with the plucky amatuer who was a fan favourite as a player.

Pretty much, will Woodward make the same mistake twice?
 
:rolleyes:

Tabloid analysis of looking at headline narratives rather than the actual teams and game.
Had they not lost every klopp final? Even when favourites?

Spurs had a massive chance to put the pressure on them and win that final
 
His team looked scared and not ready to fight for a trophy at all. Probably the most tame performance I've seen in a final for a long long time.

This is a fairer argument, although I still think the 2007 final was worse up from both sides up until Mascherano went off. Even Maldini was was struggling to trap simple passes.

I think we did well to pull spurs down to the level where we where happy to play once we went 1 up and spurs simply didn't have it in them to take back control of the game. You'd hope for more from your team, but I don't see it as a game that was exactly there for the taking.
 
Lukaku was sold in the last day of the market. Hardly any effective on the 150m spent before selling him. Not like we cashed on him first before signing Maguire and AWB. He left on deadline.

Ole got a 150m spending transfer business, the same budget LVG and Mourinho got in all their seasons (bar Mourinho last one due to falling with the board), so he wasn't treated any different from the rest. We weren't going to spend 200-300m in a summer, we didn't under previous 3 managers and we won't under next manager either.

It's his job as a coach to choose which players are more urgently needed, deserve to put the money in and get quickly and earlier while leaving the less important positions later on to see if there's enough money to buy them or not. He did made his choice. We splashed 80m on Maguire. So I don't get how he can't responsible for the state of the squad or how the summer market went on. I'm not going to talk about if Maguire deserves his price or not, if his choice was right or not, but it's his own business and he will take full responsibility for it. Blaming Ed alone is very naive when we know he knows feck all about how to build a team.

Just because the Lukaku deal was finalized on deadline day does not change the fact that everyone in the club knew he was leaving and we were getting a nice slump of money for him. Oles net spend this summer is still 60 and 50 million less than Jose spent his first two years

Honestly, you thinking we should have spent the Maguire money elsewhere and kept Smalling around is completely fair. That being said, i am pretty confident that Ole was promised more than one window to set this ship straight and if the demand was "Top 4 or sack" he would have spent differently, though i think its exactly that line of thinking that has got us in this pinch anyway. I also think 90 million net spend is way to small a budget to work with considering the state of our squad.
 
Had they not lost every klopp final? Even when favourites?

Spurs had a massive chance to put the pressure on them and win that final

They had lost one final as small favorites and one they were clearly not, which was lost to freak goalkeeping.

Spurs were going up against a team that had won 97 points and were in their second CL final in two years. The idea that they'd be rattled by their record against a spurs team in their first ever final has nothing in it.
 
And a lazy argument. The two clubs had vastly different resources. Poch has a track record for improving young players - something we are desparately in need of right now.

I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.