A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

TrustInOle said:
Would he consider Barcelona? With his Espanyol ties and all that? Because I can see him being the successor there other than the rivalry, which honestly, I dont know how deep it runs, if someone cares to educate me?
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He's already said he would never manage them due to his ties with Espanyol, that and the fact he'd never get the job also.
 
Rish Sawhney said:
Those are different groups I reckon. Poch supporters are downplaying Spurs as a club to lift up Poch's achievements as a regular 3-4 place finisher as a major achievement while others are pointing out Spurs were still consistently a top 6 club before Poch. Taking them from 4-5th finishers to 3-4th finishers while laudable is hardly the stuff of legends. In fact you can argue Spurs rise to a consistent top 4 club might have more to do with Arsenal and United's decline as a top 4 club than with Poch over performing massively.
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Conveniently leaving out the CL final I see. Downplaying what he was able to do at Spurs is utter comedy for more obvious reasons than I care to spend any brain power on. It's arguing that water isn't wet.
 
Tom Cato said:
I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.
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brilliant, brilliant post mate. I'm a big Poch fan, but have to agree with most of that. Hats off for the effort too. Cheers.
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
It's arguing that water isn't wet.
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To some extent it is, yes. Because Spurs have consistently looked like a very good side under him, one that has been assembled at a much lower cost than United, and one capable of mixing it up with anyone, really, on their day. So, dismissing his achievements - as such - is silly indeed.

But the poster you quoted nevertheless has a point. United have under-performed rather horribly in the entire post-SAF era. The fact that we, with our resources and wage bill, have been so shite has effectively rendered finishing high up the table an easier task. And Arsenal have gone from being a top 4 shoe-in to being what one may now call a top six contender. This isn't irrelevant when assessing what he's achieved in terms of sheer results.
 
B20 said:
They had lost one final as small favorites and one they were clearly not, which was lost to freak goalkeeping.

Spurs were going up against a team that had won 97 points and were in their second CL final in two years. The idea that they'd be rattled by their record against a spurs team in their first ever final has nothing in it.
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Pretty much; prior to winning against Spurs, here's his finals record:

2012 German Cup - Borussia Dortmund 5-2 Bayern Munich - WON
2013 Champions League - Borussia Dortmund 1-2 Bayern Munich - LOST
2014 German Cup - Borussia Dortmund 0-2 Bayern Munich (aet) - LOST
2015 German Cup - Borussia Dortmund 1-3 Wolfsburg - LOST
2016 Capital One Cup - Liverpool 1-1 Man City - LOST ON PENALTIES
2016 Europa League - Liverpool 1-3 Sevilla - LOST
2018 Champions League - Liverpool 1-3 Real Madrid - LOST

So he lost the CL final to a superior Bayern that romped to the treble. Then lost again to Pep's Bayern AET that had taken Gotze from him. Lost to Wolfsburg in the Cup final. Lost to City on penalties in the first season back. Lost to Sevilla in the EL, a team that won the competition three times in a row. Lost to Madrid in the CL final, to a team that won three in a row (and due to Karius).

The only loss he could partially be blamed on, is Wolfsburg.
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
Conveniently leaving out the CL final I see. Downplaying what he was able to do at Spurs is utter comedy for more obvious reasons than I care to spend any brain power on. It's arguing that water isn't wet.
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Reaching the CL final one year is an achievement yes but even you should be able to see that it was the last swansong of a team in decline. The CL final masked that fact that they had a horrible end to last season.
 
Rish Sawhney said:
Reaching the CL final one year is an achievement yes but even you should be able to see that it was the last swansong of a team in decline.
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Which is also why poch said he'd resign if they won it.
 
Tom Cato said:
I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.
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This is a car-crash of a post. Well done for missing all context and nuance in your analysis.

You mentioned Pochetino’s top 6 record. Before that even became a thing, it was a Top 4. The fact that Spurs gatecrashed the top 6 and became a permanent fixture in it, is a feather in Poch’s cap not something to beat him over the head with.

Let’s look at transfers and league positions:

TRANSFER RECORD 14/15: Overall balance $-4.92m. LEAGUE POSITION: 5th

TRANSFER RECORD 15/16: Overall balance +$18.90m. LEAGUE POSITION: 3rd

TRANSFER RECORD 16/17: Overall balance $-35.57m. LEAGUE POSITION: 2nd

TRANSFER RECORD 17/18: Overall balance $-20.18m. LEAGUE POSITION: 3rd

TRANSFER RECORD 17/18: Overall balance +$6.10m. LEAGUE POSITION: 4th

So, in 5 years he spent on average $7.134m, call it 5m quid, and basically achieved CL football every season but his first one. He played nice football, went 18 months without signing a player, and still reached the Champions League Final. Would Levy rather Spurs won a cup but miss out on CL football? Not a fecking chance, especially with that albatross of a billion dollar cheeseroom hanging over his neck.

So that's what Poch did with his limited resources - achieved CL football. Winning a trophy would have been a bonus, but with this limited squad, and thin stretched resources he had to go all in for that Top 4 first and foremost. Whilst competing with bigger teams with bigger budgets. That was his remit.


Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.
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I had to laugh hard at this. I mean I’m surprised you forgot to mention Kevin De Bryune and Mohammed Salah as players Mourinho brought in. You mentioned some random players, but the fact of the matter is that Mourinho has given an average of 2.1 academy graduates their first team league debut since 2003, but the real relevant point is that 15 of those 24 youngsters played only one game under the Portuguese, and the majority of those came in games at the end of the season in which little was at stake. Even more damning, Mourinho has only given one of those regular football: Davide Santon.

"You don't need five matches in a row," Mourinho said. "You need 10 minutes. In 10 minutes you can show me if you are ready or not... You can show you are ready, you are mentally ready, you are physically ready, you are ready to cope with the pressure, you are not the kind of guy who trains and plays against kids his own age but not ready to play at the high level. Ten minutes can say a lot."

LVG on the other hand couldn't be more different. Yes he launched Mueller as you point out, but also Alaba, Badstueber, Xavi, Iniesta, Edgar Davids, Clarence Seedorf, Patrick Kluivert, Carlos Puyol, Marcus Rashford etc. Just lumping LVG and Mourinho together shows how ignorant you're on the matter.

Now on the main topic - should we sack Ole and hire Pochetino if that option is on the table. It depends. I'd say Pochetino is clearly the superior manager, but we've hired superior managers before to be let down. Ole's not setting the place alight, but you could see what he's trying to do. I'll say give him until the end of the season, and then decide.
 
January, 2013 after United beat Southampton 2-1

"Winning is the name of the game at this stage of the season," Sir Alex said.

"For the first 30 minutes I thought we were fantastic, we played really well. But in the second half Southampton have been the best team to play here this season. We were fortunate to win the game. They pushed on top of us and didn't give us any time on the ball."

December 2015: Tottenham MP David Lammy reveals what Sir Alex told him about Pochettino

"I'm going to let you into a secret," he said. "About six weeks ago, I sat next to Sir Alex Ferguson at a dinner in support of grassroots football abroad. He said to me, 'I think you guys have got the best manager in the Premier League.' Alex Ferguson said that."

April 2016: Sir Alex praises Pochettino

"Well the manager has been fantastic. They have a bad record of managers, there is no doubt about that. They have had so many over the years, but this lad has composure. You never see him ruffled and the way his team play is a testimony to the work he is doing.

"The most important thing for English football is how many English and young players are in his team. He understands the advantage of playing young people. They won't let you down and they have been fantastic. [Dele] Alli, [Harry] Kane, [Ryan] Mason, [Danny] Rose, [Eric] Dier, all English players. [Kyle] Walker, the right back , although he has been there for a bit longer."
 
Suedesi said:
This is a car-crash of a post. Well done for missing all context and nuance in your analysis.

You mentioned Pochetino’s top 6 record. Before that even became a thing, it was a Top 4. The fact that Spurs gatecrashed the top 6 and became a permanent fixture in it, is a feather in Poch’s cap not something to beat him over the head with.

Let’s look at transfers and league positions:

TRANSFER RECORD 14/15: Overall balance $-4.92m. LEAGUE POSITION: 5th

TRANSFER RECORD 15/16: Overall balance +$18.90m. LEAGUE POSITION: 3rd

TRANSFER RECORD 16/17: Overall balance $-35.57m. LEAGUE POSITION: 2nd

TRANSFER RECORD 17/18: Overall balance $-20.18m. LEAGUE POSITION: 3rd

TRANSFER RECORD 17/18: Overall balance +$6.10m. LEAGUE POSITION: 4th

So, in 5 years he spent on average $7.134m, call it 5m quid, and basically achieved CL football every season but his first one. He played nice football, went 18 months without signing a player, and still reached the Champions League Final. Would Levy rather Spurs won a cup but miss out on CL football? Not a fecking chance, especially with that albatross of a billion dollar cheeseroom hanging over his neck.

So that's what Poch did with his limited resources - achieved CL football. Winning a trophy would have been a bonus, but with this limited squad, and thin stretched resources he had to go all in for that Top 4 first and foremost. Whilst competing with bigger teams with bigger budgets. That was his remit.




I had to laugh hard at this. I mean I’m surprised you forgot to mention Kevin De Bryune and Mohammed Salah as players Mourinho brought in. You mentioned some random players, but the fact of the matter is that Mourinho has given an average of 2.1 academy graduates their first team league debut since 2003, but the real relevant point is that 15 of those 24 youngsters played only one game under the Portuguese, and the majority of those came in games at the end of the season in which little was at stake. Even more damning, Mourinho has only given one of those regular football: Davide Santon.

"You don't need five matches in a row," Mourinho said. "You need 10 minutes. In 10 minutes you can show me if you are ready or not... You can show you are ready, you are mentally ready, you are physically ready, you are ready to cope with the pressure, you are not the kind of guy who trains and plays against kids his own age but not ready to play at the high level. Ten minutes can say a lot."

LVG on the other hand couldn't be more different. Yes he launched Mueller as you point out, but also Alaba, Badstueber, Xavi, Iniesta, Edgar Davids, Clarence Seedorf, Patrick Kluivert, Carlos Puyol, Marcus Rashford etc. Just lumping LVG and Mourinho together shows how ignorant you're on the matter.

Now on the main topic - should we sack Ole and hire Pochetino if that option is on the table. It depends. I'd say Pochetino is clearly the superior manager, but we've hired superior managers before to be let down. Ole's not setting the place alight, but you could see what he's trying to do. I'll say give him until the end of the season, and then decide.
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@Suedesi
You’ve called that post a car crash for missing all nuance and context, and then gone on to do exactly that yourself.
Yes, Poch has got top four regularly for spurs which is very good, but to say he did it with a limited squad is just wrong. Tottenham under Poch had and still have a very strong squad.
Speaking about his transfer budget is fair enough, but his squad is still good enough for the top four without much investment. Look at Harry Kane as a shining example, money can’t buy a player like him, he’s one of the best forwards in the world and he cost nothing.
Poch has done a really good job at Tottenham, but to pretend he got some old rabble into the champions league through sheer power of will is a nice story, but it’s just not true.
He took on a squad with a lot of potential and with some shrewd buys and time developed the squad into one that should go toe to toe with any side in the league on their day.
He has struggled against a lot of the top teams though, you can’t just ignore that because he got them into the champions league.
 
Dec9003 said:
@Suedesi
You’ve called that post a car crash for missing all nuance and context, and then gone on to do exactly that yourself.
Yes, Poch has got top four regularly for spurs which is very good, but to say he did it with a limited squad is just wrong. Tottenham under Poch had and still have a very strong squad.
Speaking about his transfer budget is fair enough, but his squad is still good enough for the top four without much investment. Look at Harry Kane as a shining example, money can’t buy a player like him, he’s one of the best forwards in the world and he cost nothing.
Poch has done a really good job at Tottenham, but to pretend he got some old rabble into the champions league through sheer power of will is a nice story, but it’s just not true.
He took on a squad with a lot of potential and with some shrewd buys and time developed the squad into one that should go toe to toe with any side in the league on their day.
He has struggled against a lot of the top teams though, you can’t just ignore that because he got them into the champions league.
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He built this squad through his managerial acumen and talent.Kane,Dele Ali,Erickson,Song,etc etc....He made these players big stars,these players were relatively unknown before they joined Spurs.And no,he didn’t get them into the CL through “sheer power of will”,he did it through his managerial talent.
He did not “take” on a squad with a lot of potential,he built this squad as one brimming with potential...
 
Nikelesh Reddy said:
He built this squad through his managerial acumen and talent.Kane,Dele Ali,Erickson,Song,etc etc....He made these players big stars,these players were relatively unknown before they joined Spurs.And no,he didn’t get them into the CL through “sheer power of will”,he did it through his managerial talent.
He did not “take” on a squad with a lot of potential,he built this squad as one brimming with potential...
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I don’t disagree with any of that, expect for you saying he didn’t take on a side with potential.
Couldn’t be more untrue, he helped the players realise their potential, but the potential still has to be there.
You’ve assumed reading my post that I don’t think he’s done a good job, but I think he’s done really well. I just don’t see the point of pretending he’s done things that he hasn’t, that’s all.
 
Good ploy by the man to lose players quickly , so that he gets kicked out with a hefty package. Straight out of Jose's book.
He gets a good break, keeps his reputation and probably Real Madrid will get him by summer.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Good ploy by the man to lose players quickly , so that he gets kicked out with a hefty package. Straight out of Jose's book.
He gets a good break, keeps his reputation and probably Real Madrid will get him by summer.
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yeah he is the real winner here. He hasn’t lost any reputation while getting his money. The mad thing is Mourinho got 3.5 year deal at spurs. Why do clubs offer these stupid contracts?
 
Rish Sawhney said:
Reaching the CL final one year is an achievement yes but even you should be able to see that it was the last swansong of a team in decline. The CL final masked that fact that they had a horrible end to last season.
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He didn't have requisite investment to build a squad capable of competing on all those fronts. They were also hit fairly hard by injuries last year, but my comment was in regard to the entire body of work. In no realm remotely founded in reality did he leave them the same club as he they were when he took over.
 
Dec9003 said:
@Suedesi
You’ve called that post a car crash for missing all nuance and context, and then gone on to do exactly that yourself.
Yes, Poch has got top four regularly for spurs which is very good, but to say he did it with a limited squad is just wrong. Tottenham under Poch had and still have a very strong squad.
Speaking about his transfer budget is fair enough, but his squad is still good enough for the top four without much investment. Look at Harry Kane as a shining example, money can’t buy a player like him, he’s one of the best forwards in the world and he cost nothing.
Poch has done a really good job at Tottenham, but to pretend he got some old rabble into the champions league through sheer power of will is a nice story, but it’s just not true.
He took on a squad with a lot of potential and with some shrewd buys and time developed the squad into one that should go toe to toe with any side in the league on their day.
He has struggled against a lot of the top teams though, you can’t just ignore that because he got them into the champions league.
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Who developed those players into what they are now?
 
Tom Cato said:
I have a quick argument:

Van Gaal and Mourinho BOTH have a long history of improving existing resources in their club, so this argument is flat. Also, Tottenham is not a broke club, they have a net spend of £67m in 2019 and ALSO tried to do the Dybala deal at £60-70m~. Yes they are not us or Manchester City, but they do have funds to buy talent and players.

But my grief with the Pochettino love is this:

Both LvG and Jose Mourinho have vastly better track records as managers for their respective clubs. Jose Mourinho has won trophies everywhere he went. LvG developed Thomas Müller at Bayern when they had a struggling season opener just to name one example. Jose Mourinho is the one that brought in Mikel Obi, Mario Balotelli, Jesé, Alvaro Morata, Nacho, Fabinho, Diego Llorente, Varane, Traoré, Ruben Loftus-Cheek to name just a handful. To say that any of these managers don't improve young players is just factually incorrect and does a disservice to the discussion if it's not brought up when its pointed out in favor of Pochettino.

I mean, our current manager does have a track record of improving young players as well. Literally. OGS worked with Ben Foster, Rafael, Mame Biram Diouf, Gabriel Obertan and Paul Pogba at the Reserves during his first coaching spell at the club. Most noteably recently he's had his part in helping develop Erling Braut Haaland in Molde.

And super recent history: Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams, Angel Gomes (injured), Tuanzebe and Daniel James who's all had fantastic impacts the many or few times they've played. Remember Daniel James was a signing no one or very few thought would have an impact, and he's been one of our more noticeable players all season. Brandon Williams has been man of the match BOTH times he's played. Saying that OGS is not developing the youngsters is just such an unfathomable lie I don't even know where to begin. We routinely play the youngest team in any given EPL round, but we don't have focus on youngsters?

We let in fewer goals than last season. In fact we have one of the best defenses in the league this season.

Pochettino more than almost any manager, struggles hard against top6 opposition. This table from the BBC underlines this: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/624/cpsprodpb/136A5/production/_109752597_big_six.png - His great track record comes from stability against "lesser" opposition. And to be completely fair, he DOES deserve credit and accolades for that. He is not by any metric a bad manager. But he has completely lost the team. Something is rotten at Tottenham, and he is the leader. Or was. Tottenham has lost 18 games in 2019. That is more than anyone else. Tottenham is literally the team that loses the most in Britain in this year.

So what's the takeaway here? Do you blame the players because they aren't motivated? Or do you do what the caf does to our own team and blame the manager for every single thing that goes wrong? Like, I don't understand the double standard here.

Pochettino inherited a squad that included Hugo Lloris, Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, Jan Vertonghen, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele and Harry Kane. Harry Kane has been a MONSTER over the last few seasons. Pochettinos team would be nowhere near the top6 if Harry had not been there. Harry Kane scored 169 league goals under Pochettino. Second on that list? Son - with 75. Kane is so far and above anyone that if you remove him from the equation, Tottenham is Bornemouth.

So why not Poch? Well. He's not won anything. Ever. Yes he has taken his team to the Champions Leauge. But we just employed managers who have done that routinely. Managers who won trophies and developed young players into superstars in their respective club. Tottenham has a much better squad on paper than MUFC does right now, I'll happily admit that. Especially with their recent transfer window. But fact remains that the 3 players we bought ourselves have all been fantastic. It'd be silly not to consider letting the current mangager work another window, and another.

After Martial returned, our form has quite frankly vastly improved. We're scoring goals again. And enough with this bullsh*t about beating the great "bla bla club". Norwich battered Manchester City, Brighton beat Tottenham 3-0, Chelsea lost to Liverpool, Liverpool were lucky to walk away with a point at Old Trafford (we beat Chelsea 4-0). Fact of the matter remains that we've had a comfortable time with the top6 sides under the current manager. Right now I'm quite happy to continue on the current path for a few select reasons.

1) I absolutely HATE discontinuity - It's the worst thing in the world. Discontinuity breeds insecurity and unrest. For a club like Manchester United, who enjoyed 26 managers for it's 127 year long history. Sir Alex led the club 27 years. Imagine that, we have fans that at the point of his retirement had grown into adults and never known any other manager at the club. That is why there is a statue of the man outside Old Trafford. The sheer example of the kind of tenacity Alex Ferguson put into the club is what we should strive for. It's part of this clubs entire goddamn identity. We do not change managers like other Chelsea fire their's every other Sunday.

We are in the middle of a identity rebuild. The board, the staff, everyone acknowledges that what we have done the past 7 years has not worked. So we are trying something else, to rebuild a new Class of 92. Of course it won't ever be like that, but the principle is there. We make superstars. The process takes time, sorry to say but that's the reality of the situation. Like Ed Woodward said: "We will not be distracted by short term setbacks". What matters is the progress. I am MORE than happy to write off this season if it means the kids are ready to compete next season. More than happy to.

2) Hiring a manager who was JUST fired from a rival team who we have a better record than.. what type of ambition is that? Or better yet, what kind of signal does that send to the world? Tottenham has a win percentage of 37% in all competitions in 2019. I'm sorry, but no top6 team in England is going to hire him until he proves himself again. MUFC have invested heavily into OGS and will continue to do so as long as there is improvement. And improvement there is.

3) OGS has for all his hatred from fans who don't have patience, the 4th best win% of any MUFC manager, behind Sir Alex, Mourinho, and the great Ernest Mangnall, edging out Van Gaal. And obviously a much better record than Poch in 2019. A full year almost.

4) Player management. OGS's player management is from all that we currently know EXCELLENT. Even Lukaku who left the club on bad terms recently in an interview said that "Solskjær had his eternal respect for allowing him to go". Reports from the training ground about players being unhappy about the training stems from a comment from one of the Spaniards who didn't like all the running to prepare them for the season. This was said during preseason, nothing after. Rumblings from Tottenham mention that both Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld are unhappy with the mangers treatment. Christian Eriksen is relegated to the bench after refusing to sign a new contract. Who knows what actually goes on behind the scenes,but I'm fairly sure that a 27 year old Eriksen is not happy about being benched, contributing to his impressive loss of form. On top of that several media outlets have mentioned player discontent with the managers negativity in the media. (If anyone wonders why OGS is so positive all the time, this is why, as if the obvious needed saying).

5) We are seeing player improvement across the board. Marcus Rashford was relied upon to be our guy this season. His career best scoring is 13 on the season in ALL competitions before this season. He currently sits at 9, less than 1/3 into the season. Mason Greenwood just turned 18 and is due his first EPL goal. He's scored in Europe and shown that he's good enough to play first team games with the club. Brandon Williams is our new Leftback, i've seen enough to be convinced he can be that guy. Angel Gomes is a crazy exciting player, James Garner keeps getting involvements, AWB is a developing player, same with Daniel James who's had an immediate impact in the Premier League. Even Fred has shown glimpses of greatness recently, can he sustain it? Tuanzebe looks to edge out Lindelöf soon. We got so many crazy exciting EPL ready and progressing players.

Fact of the matter is that we are in a process that is in its infancy. The board has no reason to interrupt it, the players have not shown any indication that they want to interrupt it, and quite frankly why do we want to bring in a manager who has never won anything, who was just fired from his club for completely losing the team, in the first place? We might as well hire Jose Mourinho again then, he's a better manager than Pochettino is in every aspect of the game.
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well done
 
Rish Sawhney said:
Those are different groups I reckon. Poch supporters are downplaying Spurs as a club to lift up Poch's achievements as a regular 3-4 place finisher as a major achievement while others are pointing out Spurs were still consistently a top 6 club before Poch. Taking them from 4-5th finishers to 3-4th finishers while laudable is hardly the stuff of legends. In fact you can argue Spurs rise to a consistent top 4 club might have more to do with Arsenal and United's decline as a top 4 club than with Poch over performing massively.
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Spurs were consistently a top six club but they weren't consistently a top four club, which Pochettino made them. Led them to by far their best season in the PL era.
 
Escobar said:
After Real will sack Zidane, I‘m sure he will take over
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Probably, weirdly enough I'm not sure he'd have necessarily wanted it initially considering he seems like more of a long-haul manager but if he gets it now I imagine he'd jump at the opportunity.
 
OGS is still in a sticky situation considering our start, but if he can have some good form through Christmas he'll be fine and rightfully so. If however, our form drops off a cliff again, we'd be idiots not to approach Poch, who along with Klopp has been the obvious dream United manager for years.
 
Seaman said:
yeah he is the real winner here. He hasn’t lost any reputation while getting his money. The mad thing is Mourinho got 3.5 year deal at spurs. Why do clubs offer these stupid contracts?
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Because managers like Jose or Poch wont sign a 1 yr plus 1 kind of contract.
 
I don't see any big club going for him at this point. Maybe AC Milan could take a chance otherwise it's midtable Spain or England.
 
jackal&hyde said:
I don't see any big club going for him at this point. Maybe AC Milan could take a chance otherwise it's midtable Spain or England.
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Don’t agree at all. There may not be an obvious landing place right now, but he’ll be top of the list once Munich, and both Madrid and Manchester clubs have an opening. He’d do well at all of them.
 
Infestissumam said:
brilliant, brilliant post mate. I'm a big Poch fan, but have to agree with most of that. Hats off for the effort too. Cheers.
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Agree, I have been Advocate to get Poch in, but we have improved and we are going in right direction, changing the manager now or even next season would be a mistake.
We have to give Ole another few windows to see where were at. Cannot see any arguments on the summer signings, they have all improved the team and squad, along with the academy players being brought in bit by bit ie Brandon Williams, Mason Greenwood.

Patience is needed I think now more than ever.
 
We'll watch Poch lock himself up into a different top job, whilst we risk the long shot of Ole proving he is good enough long term, then when the time comes we'll be left looking at misfits once again..

I'm not advocating bombing Ole now, but I truly hope we are asking Poch to take a break and see where we are in a few months, opportunities like this won't come around very often.
 
If you assume that Levy isn't a fool; then we need to look at why he got rid of Poch for a win-ugly manager like Jose which ought to tell us something.
 
sglowrider said:
If you assume that Levy isn't a fool; then we need to look at why he got rid of Poch for a win-ugly manager like Jose which ought to tell us something.
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Why would we assume that Levy isn't a fool? Didn't he once appoint Santini as manager? He has been at the helm of Spurs since 2001 and there is nothing to suggest that he is great on the football side of things.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
We'll watch Poch lock himself up into a different top job, whilst we risk the long shot of Ole proving he is good enough long term, then when the time comes we'll be left looking at misfits once again..

I'm not advocating bombing Ole now, but I truly hope we are asking Poch to take a break and see where we are in a few months, opportunities like this won't come around very often.
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Smart money would be on us signing Poch for the summer and urge him to take a 6 month sabbatical then find a role for Ole upstairs. It's already a long shot for us to make top six so the club can use that as a reason for removing him.

Whilst he has never won anything I think this guy is the right one for a club on the rebuild like us. We have seen how he can improve young players and we have a few that could do with some guidance. It's also interesting to see what he can do with proper funding.
 
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