A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

SquishyMcSquish said:
Dembele VERY RARELY lost the ball outside our box. Maybe a few times in his entire career at Spurs, he rarely lost the ball full stop let alone in such a dangerous position. Rose lost it twice in an area where you simply cannot give the ball away because he's simply not used to the role. Proper central midfielders know when to take risks and when to play it simple, and outside your own box is when you play simple football. Dembele used to go on his runs when he was deeper in to our own half.

Giving Rose credit because Torreira decided to steam in to him is again, a bit of a stretch. He performed the role poorly and we totally lost control of the game after we scored, partly because of giving the ball and fouls away far too cheaply which led to Arsenal being able to get on the front foot. Part of that was the football we were reduced to playing due to the presence of Llorente, and part of that was because Rose was positionally lost and playing CM like he was still a left back.

The second half was a tactical mess from Poch, of that I don't think there can be much doubt. It's no big deal and happens to all coaches (nobody gets it right all the time) and certainly doesn't undo all the fantastic work Pochettino has done at our football club, but it still was a mess. I'm almost tempted to say that moving Rose to CM was a statement from Pochettino that we badly need midfield investment.
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Dembele is more established midfielder, but he has lost the ball mutiple times before. You can’t expect to believe an left back midfielder in Rose will adopt to such a role so quickly and not make mistake. As I laid out, the result was not affected by such change and the moves showed a lot of positive and with more time on the clock, it would have reaped more beneficial as his movement caused arsenal a red card. Hard to say it was a mess when he got a result from it. Fans has high expectations from Pochettino and I don’t blame them. He has done well and managed to get a result today.

Most shot, most possessions, better passing, with whoscored showing that his side were overall better than Arsenal. Once again, you can say stats don’t reveal the whole story, but at least it supports my claim more than it does yours.
 
Amadaeus said:
Dembele is more established midfielder, but he has lost the ball mutiple times before. You can’t expect to believe an left back midfielder in Rose will adopt to such a role so quickly and not make mistake. As I laid out, the result was not affected by such change and the moves showed a lot of positive and with more time on the clock, it would have reaped more beneficial as his movement caused arsenal a red card. Hard to say it was a mess when he got a result from it. Fans has high expectations from Pochettino and I don’t blame them. He has done well and managed to get a result today.

Most shot, most possessions, better passing, with whoscored showing that his side were overlooked better than Arsenal. Once again, you can say stats don’t reveal the whole story, but at least it supports my claim more than it does yours.
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Well no, but I don't think he should be there in the first place. He's shown nothing to suggest he can play in midfield at all. His movement didn't cause a red card, he had barely received the ball and then Torreira simply went in like a moron, crediting Rose for that is .. weird. Again, Dembele did lose the ball, all midfielders will lose the ball .. but they will very rarely play silly buggers outside their own box with 10 minutes to go vs Arsenal.

He was lucky to get a result from it. We were at home and put in an ineffective performance. It's not that we have inflated expectations from Pochettino, but we can expect the team to look more inventive than they did today, and certainly show more composure on the ball after grabbing an equaliser. Just because Arsenal didn't have the quality to punish us doesn't mean it wasn't a mess, we're going to have to disagree if you think he did well today because his changes failed to make a positive change on the game.

Arsenal got an early goal and then sat off to protect the lead, so of course we will have more possession, more shots and better passing (yeah, lots of sideways passing between the three central defenders). Especially since we were the side playing at home and therefore expected to be the side playing on the front foot. Arsenal created more genuine chances from open play and looked more likely to score even after we equalised, I think our only decent opportunity from open play came with the double save from Leno, aside from that were dreadful.

It's not all on Poch, clearly we lack quality options in certain areas, but not bringing in Lucas, playing 3atb and shifting Rose to CM were three choices today which didn't work and led to us putting in an uninspired performance. We escaped with a point but that doesn't equate to him doing well.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Well no, but I don't think he should be there in the first place. He's shown nothing to suggest he can play in midfield at all. His movement didn't cause a red card, he had barely received the ball and then Torreira simply went in like a moron, crediting Rose for that is .. weird. Again, Dembele did lose the ball, all midfielders will lose the ball .. but they will very rarely play silly buggers outside their own box with 10 minutes to go vs Arsenal.
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Without Rose in midfield, I doubt that red would have happened. So, I do account the cause of that red with Rose in midfield. His movement and pace were a factor and if it was someone less agile, Toreria would have won the ball. I believe it depends on the context and situation. Guadioduzi lost a ball similarly last week against Bournemouth, so it happens. A midfielder are not computers, so mistake like this happens even with the most experienced midfield. I doubt in another game, Rose would make a similar mistake.


SquishyMcSquish said:
He was lucky to get a result from it. We were at home and put in an ineffective performance. It's not that we have inflated expectations from Pochettino, but we can expect the team to look more inventive than they did today, and certainly show more composure on the ball after grabbing an equaliser. Just because Arsenal didn't have the quality to punish us doesn't mean it wasn't a mess, we're going to have to disagree if you think he did well today because his changes failed to make a positive change on the game.
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Statistic says otherwise. Maybe you could have been more clinical and inventive as you said, but Pochettino is not controlling these players. I remember a great chance trippier had to pass to Eriksen who was free in the box but instead he put in an aimless cross toward the throw in on the opposite side. You surely can’t blame Pochettino for that? Managers can only give these players structure and confidence amongst a few other things. They can’t prevent a moment of stupidity or lack of finishing on the pitch. Pochettino did well to give them that structure and motivation to come back and win the statiscal battle.

SquishyMcSquish said:
Arsenal got an early goal and then sat off to protect the lead, so of course we will have more possession, more shots and better passing (yeah, lots of sideways passing between the three central defenders). Especially since we were the side playing at home and therefore expected to be the side playing on the front foot. Arsenal created more genuine chances from open play and looked more likely to score even after we equalised, I think our only decent opportunity from open play came with the double save from Leno, aside from that were dreadful.

It's not all on Poch, clearly we lack quality options in certain areas, but not bringing in Lucas, playing 3atb and shifting Rose to CM were three choices today which didn't work and led to us putting in an uninspired performance. We escaped with a point but that doesn't equate to him doing well.
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I already discussed the role of the manager in the above post, which answer the initial paragraph. You said it didn’t work, but Spurs still came out with a result today. Lucas is not that great and I m not sure if he would have made any difference. It is just hypothetical right now. I already discussed the benefit of moving Rose to cm. Other than my opinion, The statistic equates that he didn’t do as badly as you suggested.
 
breakout67 said:
Might want to have a word with UEFA who consistently ranked him in the top 10 of all time while Guardiola didn't make the list. Or you know look at the trophies won. It's clear projection to think that this is some bias, it's blindingly obvious that his achievements with Porto and Inter far outweight Guardiola's with Barcelona. Mourinho won half of Porto's european trophies in their whole history, and ended a 45 year CL drought for Inter.

Baldy is a better manager than Mou now, but the only exceptional thing he has done is with Barcelona. He has to win the CL with a second club to show that he can do with without an all time great team.
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Now now.

League title 3pts
League cup 1.5 pts
Fa cup 2 pts.
Euro super cup 1pts
Champions league 4.5 pts

Lets just tally their total. No bias aside. It should be closely similar.
 
Amadaeus said:
Without Rose in midfield, I doubt that red would have happened. So, I do account the cause of that red with Rose in midfield. His movement and pace were a factor and if it was someone less agile, Toreria would have won the ball. I believe it depends on the context and situation. Guadioduzi lost a ball similarly last week against Bournemouth, so it happens. A midfielder are not computers, so mistake like this happens even with the most experienced midfield. I doubt in another game, Rose would make a similar mistake.




Statistic says otherwise. Maybe you could have been more clinical and inventive as you said, but Pochettino is not controlling these players. I remember a great chance trippier had to pass to Eriksen who was free in the box but instead he put in an aimless cross toward the throw in on the opposite side. You surely can’t blame Pochettino for that? Managers can only give these players structure and confidence amongst a few other things. They can’t prevent a moment of stupidity or lack of finishing on the pitch. Pochettino did well to give them that structure and motivation to come back and win the statiscal battle.



I already discussed the role of the manager in the above post, which answer the initial paragraph. You said it didn’t work, but Spurs still came out with a result today. Lucas is not that great and I m not sure if he would have made any difference. It is just hypothetical right now. I already discussed the benefit of moving Rose to cm. Other than my opinion, The statistic equates that he didn’t do as badly as you suggested.
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You can't credit the manager for Torreira deciding to lunge in. It's got nothing to do with agility because Rose barely has any time to react, Torreira is just an idiot who went in for a stupid challenge. Rose gave it away twice on the edge of the box in the space of 20 minutes, there's a difference between not being a computer and making stupid errors because you're out of position. Rose would absolutely do the same thing again.

Statistics aren't everything, I have no idea why people fall back on them when actually watching the game is always the best way to assess it. Nobody could say we played well in that game if they've watched the match, yes we had a few moments in which Trippier/Rose had space but the performance was poor. There is no victory in winning the 'statistical battle' when one team gets the lead and then sits back, it's totally meaningless to dominate possession.

We came out with a draw at home to a team lower in the table to us, and our only goal came from a dodgy penalty. Lucas is a better player than Llorente and it made more sense to bring him on against tired legs, than reverting to the same tactic we do nearly every time when it's not going our way (llorente on, chuck long balls) which has almost never worked. He's a player who has made a difference off the bench multiple times and scares opponents and forces them deeper because he has genuine pace.

I dunno why it's so hard to just accept that Poch had a bad game tactically and move on, rather than talking about how because we had possession he's done well. It's just not the case when you watch the game and you can see that so many of our passes are exactly where Arsenal are happy for us to have possession.
 
Sky1981 said:
Mental gymnastic of spurs fans jugglinf whether they have a shit team or a shit manager. Changes on match per match basis
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It's neither.

We have a good team under a good manager, but the same can be said for a number of other teams, and teams like City & Liverpool have world class managers and world class teams (arguable, in Liverpool's case).
 
Sky1981 said:
Yet everytime we say poch is a good manager you argue he's world class.
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No I don't.

I think Pochettino is a very good manager who has done a very good job at Spurs, but he is far from perfect and games like today prove it.

I do also think he comes in for a lot of unfair criticism when it isn't his fault, but today was a game where he made legitimate errors.
 
abdo99 said:
His football is an eyesore. I can't believe they have reputation here for playing good football. Rely on fullbacks and when all fails turn into hoofball FC. Nothing else.
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One of the biggest mysteries of life. Right there with Pochettino being a 'top' manager.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
You can't credit the manager for Torreira deciding to lunge in. It's got nothing to do with agility because Rose barely has any time to react, Torreira is just an idiot who went in for a stupid challenge. Rose gave it away twice on the edge of the box in the space of 20 minutes, there's a difference between not being a computer and making stupid errors because you're out of position. Rose would absolutely do the same thing again.

Statistics aren't everything, I have no idea why people fall back on them when actually watching the game is always the best way to assess it. Nobody could say we played well in that game if they've watched the match, yes we had a few moments in which Trippier/Rose had space but the performance was poor. There is no victory in winning the 'statistical battle' when one team gets the lead and then sits back, it's totally meaningless to dominate possession.

We came out with a draw at home to a team lower in the table to us, and our only goal came from a dodgy penalty. Lucas is a better player than Llorente and it made more sense to bring him on against tired legs, than reverting to the same tactic we do nearly every time when it's not going our way (llorente on, chuck long balls) which has almost never worked. He's a player who has made a difference off the bench multiple times and scares opponents and forces them deeper because he has genuine pace.

I dunno why it's so hard to just accept that Poch had a bad game tactically and move on, rather than talking about how because we had possession he's done well. It's just not the case when you watch the game and you can see that so many of our passes are exactly where Arsenal are happy for us to have possession.
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You completely ignore my questions towards trippier not passing to Eriksen. :lol:. The manager can only do as much as he can do and he did well to avoid a defeat and win the statistical battle. Rather than being 1 points behind Arsenal, they are four. Three ahead of United. With United playing Arsenal next week, that point can be very vital in your team staying in the top four. As I stated before, I m not only using statistic to back up my point but my view on the game as well. I rather have empirical evidence to back up my claims than just a subjective opinion. We have differences of opinion with regards to the red and it doesn’t look like none of us are budging in regards to how it happened.
 
Hate it when I miss the games they don't win, because I don't get a chance to mock him or annoy @SquishyMcSquish a little bit. :D :D

Just kidding of course. On the annoying part not mocking Poch.
 
breakout67 said:
Might want to have a word with UEFA who consistently ranked him in the top 10 of all time while Guardiola didn't make the list. Or you know look at the trophies won. It's clear projection to think that this is some bias, it's blindingly obvious that his achievements with Porto and Inter far outweight Guardiola's with Barcelona. Mourinho won half of Porto's european trophies in their whole history, and ended a 45 year CL drought for Inter.

Baldy is a better manager than Mou now, but the only exceptional thing he has done is with Barcelona. He has to win the CL with a second club to show that he can do with without an all time great team.
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Both have 2 UCL, Mourinho has 8 league titles while Guardiola will have 8 in 3 months. Both have a few cups, no idea who has more. Mourinho has started coaching 8 or so years before Guardiola.

Guardiola has been the most influential manager in this century, Mourinho hasn't. While his UCL with Porto is impressive, him getting sacked 5 times in his career is not. Guardiola has yet to be sacked for comparison.

Guardiola will be remembered as a top 5 manager of all time when this career is done, Mourinho won't. He started well, but since 2012 has been failure after failure (with a bright point in 14-15).
 
Revan said:
Both have 2 UCL, Mourinho has 8 league titles while Guardiola will have 8 in 3 months. Both have a few cups, no idea who has more. Mourinho has started coaching 8 or so years before Guardiola.

Guardiola has been the most influential manager in this century, Mourinho hasn't. While his UCL with Porto is impressive, him getting sacked 5 times in his career is not. Guardiola has yet to be sacked for comparison.

Guardiola will be remembered as a top 5 manager of all time when this career is done, Mourinho won't. He started well, but since 2012 has been failure after failure (with a bright point in 14-15).
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That's not true. Both will be remembered as 2 of the best managers in football history. Just because Mourinho is hitting a decline doesn't negate what he did in his previous career. Pep is only 48 years old and managed only 3 clubs, if he hits a decline period when he's close to 60 it won't negate what he did in his prime. Not every manager is supposed to be top drawn coach till he retires. Every manager hits a point of decline eventually (maybe bar Fergie).

Also there's several ways to play football, and not all known managers in history are known for playing great stuff.
 
el3mel said:
That's not true. Both will be remembered as 2 of the best managers in football history. Just because Mourinho is hitting a decline doesn't negate what he did in his previous career. Pep is only 48 years old and managed only 3 clubs, if he hits a decline period when he's close to 60 it won't negate what he did in his prime. Not every manager is supposed to be top drawn coach till he retires. Every manager hits a point of decline eventually (maybe bar Fergie).

Also there's several ways to play football, and not all known managers in history are known for playing great stuff.
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Mourinho will probably remembered with the likes of Trappatoni, Herrera or Lippi. Pep will probably be with Michels and Ferguson. Both great managers, but one clearly better than other. Also, one at his worst was still a top manager, while the other got sacked 5 times.
 
Amadaeus said:
You completely ignore my questions towards trippier not passing to Eriksen. :lol:. The manager can only do as much as he can do and he did well to avoid a defeat and win the statistical battle. Rather than being 1 points behind Arsenal, they are four. Three ahead of United. With United playing Arsenal next week, that point can be very vital in your team staying in the top four. As I stated before, I m not only using statistic to back up my point but my view on the game as well. I rather have empirical evidence to back up my claims than just a subjective opinion. We have differences of opinion with regards to the red and it doesn’t look like none of us are budging in regards to how it happened.
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Part of Pochettino's game plan is to get it out wide to the fullbacks as much as possible, so obviously situations are going to arise where our fullbacks have space, particularly when they're playing as wing backs. The problem is, Trippier & Rose have been shite all season so it's repeatedly banging our head against a brick wall and expecting different results.

There is no such thing as the statistical battle. Seriously, is this what modern football has been reduced to? You haven't won anything by having more possession. Nothing. Nada.

There's nothing subjective about the fact we played shit today, we created basically no clear cut chances. Your empirical evidence is the fact we managed more shots and had more of the ball against a team playing as the away side who led for most of the game. It's honestly meaningless because most of our possession was in areas which were zero threat to the opposition who were happy to sit off when we had the ball there. It's also obvious that a team chasing the game is going to show more attacking intent, Arsenal after the goal set up firmly on the counter.
 
Sky1981 said:
Now now.

League title 3pts
League cup 1.5 pts
Fa cup 2 pts.
Euro super cup 1pts
Champions league 4.5 pts

Lets just tally their total. No bias aside. It should be closely similar.
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JM - 45.5
PG - 44

This is also excluding the 2 Europa leagues Mourinho won. Considering a CL is 4.5 and a league title is 3. We can say that a Europa league is 2 points, on the same ground as an FA cup.

JM - 49.5
PG - 44

It's settled :D

Revan said:
Mourinho will probably remembered with the likes of Trappatoni, Herrera or Lippi. Pep will probably be with Michels and Ferguson. Both great managers, but one clearly better than other. Also, one at his worst was still a top manager, while the other got sacked 5 times.
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Pep with the likes of Ferguson :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

No wonder you think no one rates Mourinho above him. Ferguson transcends the game, that's how good he was. He shaped modern football as we know it. Ferguson is several levels above Guardiola.
 
breakout67 said:
Pep with the likes of Ferguson :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

No wonder you think no one rates Mourinho above him. Ferguson transcends the game, that's how good he was. He shaped modern football as we know it. Ferguson is several levels above Guardiola.
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He really didn't. He managed to achieve what not many managers achieved, staying forever in the same club while being successful, but he didn't influence the other managers as in trying to copy him and his tactics. Pep is there with Michels in this aspect, everyone tried to play like Pep's team after his success with Barca. His teams just dominate matches more than those of any manager, while for example we were more or less always underdogs in UCL.
 
Revan said:
He really didn't. He managed to achieve what not many managers achieved, staying forever in the same club while being successful, but he didn't influence the other managers as in trying to copy him and his tactics. Pep is there with Michels in this aspect, everyone tried to play like Pep's team after his success with Barca. His teams just dominate matches more than those of any manager, while for example we were more or less always underdogs in UCL.
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Nobody plays Peps style though? More top sides resemble Sir Alexs sides than Peps.
That 08 side would still be seen as progressive today never mind a decade ago.
Even Pep doesn't play how he used to?
 
cyberman said:
Nobody plays Peps style though? More top sides resemble Sir Alexs sides than Peps.
That 08 side would still be seen as progressive today never mind a decade ago.
Even Pep doesn't play how he used to?
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Doing pressure and monopolizing the ball are both things that were made popular by him. Even more direct managers like Klopp have understood how important is to keep the ball forever.

I leave this debate here though, already derailed the thread too much.
 
Revan said:
Mourinho will probably remembered with the likes of Trappatoni, Herrera or Lippi. Pep will probably be with Michels and Ferguson. Both great managers, but one clearly better than other. Also, one at his worst was still a top manager, while the other got sacked 5 times.
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He was sacked 3 times not 5.

Pep has only managed 3 clubs and no one know if he'll be sacked in the future or not. You're not getting the point Pep is still a pretty young manager who hasn't even hit his 50. Prior to returning to Chelsea, Mourinho was only sacked once too.

The comparison will be more accurate when Pep is approaching his 60s and see how much he fared with multiple clubs.

At the point Mourinho is definitely one of the best managers in history, similar to Pep. If he's remembered with the likes of Lippi and Herrera, that's great achievement.
 
breakout67 said:
Pep with the likes of Ferguson :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
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I think you might have some red tinted glasses on here as I don't think he's not far off in all honesty. You simply can't deny his trophy hall.

Yes, Pep has had some of the best players in the world to aid his trophy cabinet but so did Fergie - and we happily broke records to buy the best players under him too.

Outside of England, many would argue 2 CL trophies in 26 years is nothing worth shouting about for a top club like United.

For me, Fergie will always be the greatest manager ever - simple as (until Ole levels with him in 26 years). But Pep is not a bad manager at all and did change football too with his tiki style football and has not done bad at Bayern (everyone should be able to do that though) and City too. He needs a CL under city though.
 
breakout67 said:
JM - 45.5
PG - 44

This is also excluding the 2 Europa leagues Mourinho won. Considering a CL is 4.5 and a league title is 3. We can say that a Europa league is 2 points, on the same ground as an FA cup.

JM - 49.5
PG - 44

It's settled :D



Pep with the likes of Ferguson :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

No wonder you think no one rates Mourinho above him. Ferguson transcends the game, that's how good he was. He shaped modern football as we know it. Ferguson is several levels above Guardiola.
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Thanks for those numbers.

The battle hasnt ended i think. Mourinho will somehow manage another teams and who knows
 
Revan said:
Doing pressure and monopolizing the ball are both things that were made popular by him. Even more direct managers like Klopp have understood how important is to keep the ball forever.

I leave this debate here though, already derailed the thread too much.
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Top sides don't keep the ball more than they used to, I just don't see that as true. Even Liverpool tend to struggle when they have the ball.
Give them a choice and they will press you into oblivion with Salah etc taking advantages of the space.
Not keeping the ball or drawing the opposition out etc.
If Pep never existed I don't think modern football would be much different. I just think those are buzzwords with little meaning behind them.
Sir Alex, for example, was rotating his strikers out wide to give them the extra space to run into or sending out a false 9 to the Bernabeu to pressure their sitting midfielder and disrupt their rhythm.
More modern sides are doing that than setting out for 70 percent ball possession for example.
 
Revan said:
He's like an absurd version of @Cal? . Buf if @Cal? was worshipping Walcott instead of Ronaldo.
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I can understand where cal is coming from seeing as Ronaldo played for us and is big part of our history. Unless that dude is an Argentinean, then I see no reason for him to be so obsessed with him. Bit bizarre.
 
He talks so much shit, says Spurs were better in every aspect than Arsenal today. He's a fecking clown if he truly believes that
 
charlenefan said:
He talks so much shit, says Spurs were better in every aspect than Arsenal today. He's a fecking clown if he truly believes that
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The team is in poor form, what purpose would it serve to slam them in the press?

I'm pretty sure behind closed doors he will be saying differently, but in public he's not going to rip the team to shreds. Their morale is down as it is.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
The team is in poor form, what purpose would it serve to slam them in the press?

I'm pretty sure behind closed doors he will be saying differently, but in public he's not going to rip the team to shreds. Their morale is down as it is.
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He doesn't have to slam or rip anything, just don't talk utter bollocks like they were better in every aspect. It's not like it's black and white and he has to say one or the other
 
charlenefan said:
He doesn't have to slam or rip anything, just don't talk utter bollocks like they were better in every aspect. It's not like it's black and white and he has to say one or the other
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Maybe, but managers do this all the time, try and praise when the team isn't doing so well to keep up squad morale.

I very much doubt Poch is coming away from that game satisfied with the performance. What is said to the media should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
 
The manager of a wee club in north London. Want nothing to do with him.
 
Revan said:
He really didn't. He managed to achieve what not many managers achieved, staying forever in the same club while being successful, but he didn't influence the other managers as in trying to copy him and his tactics. Pep is there with Michels in this aspect, everyone tried to play like Pep's team after his success with Barca. His teams just dominate matches more than those of any manager, while for example we were more or less always underdogs in UCL.
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He's not wrong about Sir Alex transcending football. Pep Guardiola is a solid manager if not a great one (I have reserves about him considering he's only ever won the league with the strongest side by a country mile and been shit in CL without Messi), but the average joe doesnt know who he is. Alot of your average joe's knows who Sir Alex Ferguson is.
 
Tottenham have lost 8 games in the league this season... We've lost 0 in the league under Ole.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
This. Almost every time the 'tactical masterclass' tag has been attributed to him it's him pushing his fullbacks up.

Masterclass my bum.
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It was mad seeing Arsenal with makeshift suspect CB playing RB (Mustafi) and he didn't use Lucas or Son to dribble 1 on 1 against him. negative team selection and negative tactics really. The Arsenal defence that is the only team in the league not to keep a clean sheet away looked totally comfortable and would've succeeded in getting that clean sheet if linesman was doing his job.
 
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