A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

thegregster said:
Since Poch took over Spurs:

Liverpool roughly 570mil
Man utd roughly 600mil
Man City roughly 740mil
Chelsea roughy 750mil

In that time Poch has spent around 250mil. It's a miracle he is competing at the top of the PL.

Ironically it's also leaves a question mark over Poch. We don't know how the hell he would do with a much bigger budget!
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This is incredible and if you add these players wages the differences only grows larger.

All that spent from Pochettino rivalry and none of them looks world apart from his team. If Pochettino spends anywhere close to the amount of his rivals only a fool wouldn’t think his team will be much better than it currently is. And being that much better will obviously mean title which are his doubters major concerns.
 
Amadaeus said:
This is incredible and if you add these players wages the differences only grows larger.

All that spent from Pochettino rivalry and none of them looks world apart from his team. If Pochettino spends anywhere close to the amount of his rivals only a fool wouldn’t think his team will be much better than it currently is. And being that much better will obviously mean title which are his doubters major concerns.
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It is a good point. But you can easily flip it upside down and say this might prove how spending all that money really wont make much difference in it self. Even for Pochettino. Him signing a lot of expensive rubbish, or getting desperate wont necessarily make his group a better fit to perform under him. It usually takes a while before players find their way into the team, no matter if they cost 50m and has been injured since arriving or cost 20m or something and now finally plays like a 70m player like Son.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
No. We really do NOT have any evidence he can win trophies. All we have is evidence he can win matches. Big clubs do not judge you on merely winning matches. That is one thing Pochetino will have to prove before most major club attempt to snatch him

That is why I personally hope he resists all attempts to take him from Spurs. Till he suceeds in turning his work into a trophy win or two. Bigger clubs are the type to discard him at the first chance if things are not immediate for him and to me he doesn't need that shit at this stage of his career
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The issue with your whole post (and this general movement/idea of wanting coaches to "prove themselves" first before moving on) is this need for "evidence". To make such appointments, and to make them feasible, you have to act upon a good reason to believe something rather than evidence. This way of thinking just baffles me.

1) Managers don't wait for us and we don't wait for them. That window to hire someone is short and you don't have the luxury of seeing something happen all the time.

2) Even if we did have that luxury, we wait till 2020 and Poch won the League with Totenham, why on earth would he want to move onto Man United now? He would have just etched himself in Totenham history and would be an absolute legend for the club.

3) Let's assume he doesn't give a shit about spurs and joins us. There is absolutely no telling he will win the league with us. The league is competitive. Pep and Klop might win it those next few years. He might still be building out squad. Point is there, just because he won something last season wouldn't guarantee anything for the following season

4) Look at Ole. He struggled at Cardiff. By this idea of "nah gotta prove yourself first mate", he'd have never gotten the United Job. However we gave Ole the Job because there was reason to believe he could instill success in the club and it wasn't just because he'd won stuff. Roy Keane is a winner. There's a reason Ole got the nod and not Keane. It's worked out well so far so again, this proving yourself stuff is crap.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself is there reason to believe that Poch can be successful in winning trophies at United? The answer for me glaringly obvious. A yes all day. I'm not going to wait for some arbitrary loss in a final to turn into a win when I know this guy has the talent to build teams wherever he goes.

I'm still on the Ole bandwagon but dismissing Poch because of not winning the premier league is foolish.
 
shamans said:
I'm still on the Ole bandwagon but dismissing Poch because of not winning the premier league is foolish.
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No. They both have to prove themselves game by game until the end of the season where fans get together and vote to decide who they hate the most.
 
MikeKing said:
It is a good point. But you can easily flip it upside down and say this might prove how spending all that money really wont make much difference in it self. Even for Pochettino. Him signing a lot of expensive rubbish, or getting desperate wont necessarily make his group a better fit to perform under him. It usually takes a while before players find their way into the team, no matter if they cost 50m and has been injured since arriving or cost 20m or something and now finally plays like a 70m player like Son.
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When you look at some of United best player, they went for a record fee. Same for Liverpool, City and Chelsea. These players has made differences to their team. Without Martial, Pogba and De Gea at United, we would be languishing mid table. So, I believe it is hard to go wrong when you pay such an extravagant amount consistently for a player unless you have a poor manager and bad scout/managerial support system.

I believe Pochettino will follow the Liverpool model. Get gem in the market place like Salah(Son) and then get ready made quality players like Van Dijk and Fabinho. Rather than just go for the hottest thing on the market and throw cash at him.
 
Amadaeus said:
When you look at some of United best player, they went for a record fee. Same for Liverpool, City and Chelsea. These players has made differences to their team. Without Martial, Pogba and De Gea at United, we would be languishing mid table. So, I believe it is hard to go wrong when you pay such an extravagant amount consistently for a player unless you have a poor manager and bad scout/managerial support system.

I believe Pochettino will follow the Liverpool model. Get gem in the market place like Salah(Son) and then get ready made quality players like Van Dijk and Fabinho. Rather than just go for the hottest thing on the market and throw cash at him.
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Well, that is what all clubs realistically would prefer to do isn't it. It is what has been happening at Spurs. They buy decent players, give them time to work with the manager in a less pressurised environment and there you go, they step up. Kane, Eriksen, Dembele, Son, Alli to name a few. A lot of players have had a great time at Spurs, but they have all been gems. They aren't 10m players who Pochettino is coaching into 100m players, they are literally good players, and to add to that they have a few top players that help them out a lot. Pogba, Martial De Gea is like what 150m? Almost a bargain in this market. We have spent a lot of money on a lot of players that haven't been good enough. Spurs too, but they have had more luck with the gems opposed to go buying really big. Top clubs haven't had much luck spending a lot of money? So nothing really points to money being the be all end all. It is not about the cost but the talent.
 
He is such an impressive manager and it's no surprise that the media keep touting him as one of the favourites for the United job. Didn't expect them to hammer the bundesligad top side 3-0 and nullify their attack completely. Very well done. He got the maximum out of his 11 which was missing big players they are supposedly nothing without and got the job done.
 
thegregster said:
Since Poch took over Spurs:

Liverpool roughly 570mil
Man utd roughly 600mil
Man City roughly 740mil
Chelsea roughy 750mil

In that time Poch has spent around 250mil. It's a miracle he is competing at the top of the PL.

Ironically it's also leaves a question mark over Poch. We don't know how the hell he would do with a much bigger budget!
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Absolutely. They spend very little, pay very little and feed on the scraps that the other top sides don't even bother to look at. He's done a brilliant job. Maybe be wouldnt get the business done with a bigger budget/expectations but the idea of him having those resources does sound like it has a lot of potential.
 
The best thing about Poch (much alike SAF) is that he can get seemingly average players to up their game and play like world beaters. And just like SAF, he gives youth a chance and improves their game.

Look at Sissoko, he was supposedly their worst over signing.
No Dembele, No Wanyama, no Dier, no problem. In steps Sissoko who has been having a terrific season. Look at Winks (another English player who has benefitted largely by playing under Poch).
Since the start of 17/18, Poch has been tactically more flexible with his approach and has got impressive results Real home and away, BVB home and away, Barca away, Juve away and now again last night. We really should try and get him somehow.
Both Utd and Poch need to win the title that we have been waiting for 6 years now and it would be the perfect marriage.

Ole has done a fantastic job by lifting the mood, but he has got his limitations in terms of tactics and i love him too much that I do not want his tactical limitations to get found out.
He has been able to come with pre-match tactics like playing with a False nine vs Arsenal etc, but his in-game management is still questionabe (vs Spurs and now vs PSG).
 
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Would take him in a heartbeat if he has any interest. And it's almost impossible for me to love Ole more.
 
Spent 0 on the last two windows and is supposed to be in the middle of an injury crisis.
And people wonder why he's so highly rated.
 
Really impressive win both for Poch and Tottenham, I'd like to see them go far in the champions league.
 
Has Tuchel won anything noteworthy? He's still highly rated everywhere even before he came to Dortmund. It's a stupid criteria why can't people see anything beyond that.

Poch has done very good job, considering he has to deal with limited resources. Once He won a major trophy (a big if but still), Barca Real Madrid, oil clubs even will be all over him, by that point it's already too late for us. There's no reason the board should not see him as our number 1 or 2 target for perma manager job.

If you want to be ahead of everyone you must invest in the unexplored areas, it applies to sport too. Mourinho, LvG are dinosaurs, born whiner(not winner) and have no place in modern football. They should not be brought up in any argument.
 
Have to admit, he's doing very well without major transfers. It takes a lot to keep the same squad fresh and motivated. And he is also improving in his approach to games in Europe, full credit to him.
 
Whatever he did in the 2nd half seemed to have worked wonders. So kudos to him. It is not easy to have key players injured, but still be able to win a game so convincingly
 
Spurs result vs Dortmund is not good for Ole. It reveals the painful truth that perhaps, just perhaps, Poch is ahead of him in terms of managerial ability. Still a difficult call though I have to say. What is certain however is Poch's ability to be consistent even in seemingly adverse situations. Very intriguing indeed.

Can we have like a mutant version i.e. Poch's tactical nous and Ole's smiles?
 
MikeKing said:
Well, that is what all clubs realistically would prefer to do isn't it. It is what has been happening at Spurs. They buy decent players, give them time to work with the manager in a less pressurised environment and there you go, they step up. Kane, Eriksen, Dembele, Son, Alli to name a few. A lot of players have had a great time at Spurs, but they have all been gems. They aren't 10m players who Pochettino is coaching into 100m players, they are literally good players, and to add to that they have a few top players that help them out a lot. Pogba, Martial De Gea is like what 150m? Almost a bargain in this market. We have spent a lot of money on a lot of players that haven't been good enough. Spurs too, but they have had more luck with the gems opposed to go buying really big. Top clubs haven't had much luck spending a lot of money? So nothing really points to money being the be all end all. It is not about the cost but the talent.
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With regards to the initial bolded part most of those players were literally £10m or less players that Pochettino developed into £100m players. They were definitely not bought for any extravagant fee :lol:.

The second bolded part, Players market value increase over time. Pogba fee then is tantamount to £140m now. Same with De Gea and Martial, so you can’t look at their value then and say that what we got for them was cheap without understanding inflation as they were all record transfer fee at the time.

Top clubs have had luck spending money, that is why they are top of the tables and winning trophies. Without the money spent, they would not be where they are and would find it harder to defeat some of their opponents. Which makes Pochettino achievements more incredible than most things I have seen in this modern footballing era.
 
DeGea said:
Spurs result vs Dortmund is not good for Ole. It reveals the painful truth that perhaps, just perhaps, Poch is ahead of him in terms of managerial ability. Still a difficult call though I have to say. What is certain however is Poch's ability to be consistent even in seemingly adverse situations. Very intriguing indeed.

Can we have like a mutant version i.e. Poch's tactical nous and Ole's smiles?
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We are not even sure he wants to come here. Him coming here need minimum of two conditions to be satisfied
- He should want an out from Spurs. In other words he accepts he has done the best he can for Spurs and given their investment plans for future, he has hit a ceiling over there.
- Real is not coming calling.

So too early to make it Poch Vs Ole.
And it is not even fair to compare him with Ole, given that Ole has just been here for 2 months or so. Pochettino had that team for ages.
So, I think Pochettino should be evaluated independent of Ole.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
We are not even sure he wants to come here. Him coming here need minimum of two conditions to be satisfied
- He should want an out from Spurs. In other words he accepts he has done the best he can for Spurs and given their investment plans for future, he has hit a ceiling over there.
- Real is not coming calling.

So too early to make it Poch Vs Ole.
And it is not even fair to compare him with Ole, given that Ole has just been here for 2 months or so. Pochettino had that team for ages.
So, I think Pochettino should be evaluated independent of Ole.
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Of course, if he does not want to come here, then there would be no point having all these threads. All ifs and buts. For the sake of the argument, let's assume he wants to come, or we can persuade him to (everyone has a price, something Levy will know very well).

I get where you are coming from re: not even fair to compare him with Ole given that Ole has just been here for 2 months. But assuming your logic is true, there will never be a fair time, given that Ole will always spend less time at United compared to the time Poch has spent at Spurs. So what is a fair amount of time for you, where you think Ole can be judged? End of season? 12 months? 6 months? After next 3 fixtures?

I think a fairer way of assessing the situation is looking at their track record which is something we know of. It is without doubt, Poch has a better track record to date in his career compared to Ole, even when you take Ole's time at United out of the equation (which ironically actually makes Ole's managerial record look worse).

However, football is a funny old game, and sometimes you go with your heart and it all works splendidly.
 
DeGea said:
Spurs result vs Dortmund is not good for Ole. It reveals the painful truth that perhaps, just perhaps, Poch is ahead of him in terms of managerial ability. Still a difficult call though I have to say. What is certain however is Poch's ability to be consistent even in seemingly adverse situations. Very intriguing indeed.

Can we have like a mutant version i.e. Poch's tactical nous and Ole's smiles?
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Pish, Paul Ince could do that with a snap of his fingers.;)
 
Amadaeus said:
With regards to the initial bolded part most of those players were literally £10m or less players that Pochettino developed into £100m players. They were definitely not bought for any extravagant fee :lol:.

The second bolded part, Players market value increase over time. Pogba fee then is tantamount to £140m now. Same with De Gea and Martial, so you can’t look at their value then and say that what we got for them was cheap without understanding inflation as they were all record transfer fee at the time.

Top clubs have had luck spending money, that is why they are top of the tables and winning trophies. Without the money spent, they would not be where they are and would find it harder to defeat some of their opponents. Which makes Pochettino achievements more incredible than most things I have seen in this modern footballing era.
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First point. That is literally what I said so not sure why you are laughing, you do not know what a gem is I take it?

Second point. Not sure if bringing up inflation just brings your point into a corner or not. Kane and Eriksen has a current value of 230m according to transfermarkt. No matter how much they originally paid for those players, they are still worth that amount because they are that good. Or do you really think Pochettino would come to Man Utd, turn Fred a supposedly "50m player" into a 150m player. It just doesn't work like that man.

Shaw 60m, Herrera 100, Dalot 75. And on top of expecting that, you think having additional worldclass players such as Pogba and Martial will give Poch the title by default? So all United would need to do is hire him and we would definitely win, because we spent more money than Spurs. Obviously not, I hope you agree. It is about the quality of players, if you get 5 gems for 10m in and they all work out it doesn't matter that someone else spent 250m on 3 players who doesn't deliver. You have the better players in that scenario. It is against the odds sure, but that has been the good thing for Spurs, combined with a manager that I think like the challenge of being the underdog. It is not even like he has bad players. Everyone talks about De Gea saving us, no top 4 without him etc. What about Lloris? He is a great goalie man, very important to have that. Chelsea doesn't have that. Arsenal doesn't have that.
 
Ace of Spades said:
He won't. Lukaku is not going to suddenly do things he was never good at before, no matter the manager.
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I don't expect him to start doing ribonas once he sees Poch walking down the sidelines. :lol:

Lukaku has some qualities which got him this far and allowed him to score 15+ goals season after season. I am rather hoping Poch will allow Lukaku to build on them in terms of how he is expected to play, and not waste him as a target man. There is the question of imparting confidence, too.

I was half joking, though. Still rooting for Ole to come through by mid-March. We'll know definitely by then how things stand.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
I don't expect him to start doing ribonas once he sees Poch walking down the sidelines. :lol:

Lukaku has some qualities which got him this far and allowed him to score 15+ goals season after season. I am rather hoping Poch will allow Lukaku to build on them in terms of how he is expected to play, and not waste him as a target man. There is the question of imparting confidence, too.

I was half joking, though. Still rooting for Ole to come through by mid-March. We'll know definitely by then how things stand.
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I'm not saying Lukaku is shit, I think Mourinho turned him into something he wasn't and he wilfully took the risk to please him and got nothing to show for it, nothing back for his efforts. Naturally you will be a bit confused after doing everything "right", while everything is going wrong. Thing is, it is clear to me that he will need time to get back to the player he was. I'm not sure we should give him that time. He was a great solution in a market with few good strikers available and a way to get Rooney off our books. But that's it. I'm not sure he was ever supposed to not be upgraded on, and certainly not after this hiccup with Mourinho taken into consideration.

Ole won freakin' 10 games in a row and completely changed the way we have played. He has proved that even if you get a lot, I mean a lot, out of this squad. Ultimately it still isn't enough. If we start thinking easy solutions and that Ole is the problem and if Pochettino comes in he might make Lukaku better than Kane, Jones into a leader etc. We'll have learnt nothing. Rinse and repeat. Spend the odd 90m on some player made available from Madrid or Bayern who we don't need to show off we are backing Pochettino unlike Spurs, then turn our noses up at the manager as soon as the formula given to him doesn't work.
 
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Poch is definitely a top manager but comparing him to OGS is quite unfair and that is without taking into cognisance the difference in experience.

One is managing his team that he has worked with for years while the other is managing a group of players that he just started working with 2 months ago.

People talk about Poch's in-game management abilities and that is definitely a cracking ability but is one that can only come about when you know the strengths and weaknesses of all your players and can trust them to carry out the instructions you tailor to their strengths.

OGS has a handicap in that respect as he has to turn to players that are not his and do not have the ability to play the way he wants or the way their abilities suggest they should (Sanchez, lukaku and mata to name a few)

If after this result against PSG we crumble and start going on a downward spiral then I'd be in the Poch in camp but if OGS and the team can prove that it's just a blip caused by losing 2/3 of your attacking threat in-game (there's a difference between losing players to injury in a game and before it where you can plan differently as PSG and Spurs have done brilliantly), then I'll still be up for giving Ole the job.

The next couple of games and our reaction to this setback will tell us quite a bit about our 20legend.
 
MikeKing said:
Ole won freakin' 10 games in a row and completely changed the way we have played. He has proved that even if you get a lot, I mean a lot, out of this squad. Ultimately it still isn't enough. If we start thinking easy solutions and that Ole is the problem and if Pochettino comes in he might make Lukaku better than Kane, Jones into a leader etc. We'll have learnt nothing. Rinse and repeat. Spend the odd 90m on some player made available from Madrid or Bayern who we don't need to show off we are backing Pochettino unlike Spurs, then turn our noses up at the manager as soon as the formula given to him doesn't work.
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This is definitely my biggest fear as well.
 
To be fair, it’s nice to have this debate on the Caf for once, we seem as though we may win regardless of which manager we appoint (Ole or Pochettino).

However, I’m almost certain Pochettino won’t be leaving Spurs this summer, especially after this season and with Solskjaer available at £8m instead of the much talked about £40m - £50m, it would make more sense to invest that in the transfer market instead and give Solskjaer a crack.

Pochettino may end up here at some point but it won’t be this summer.
 
LiteralDave said:
Never take football fanatics seriously. Something I learnt a long time ago.
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I am just going with the flow. If it's Ole, I am okay with it. If it's Poch, I am okay with that too.

The bright side is, no more defensive dinosaurs are being linked with the top job, which in itself is a major relief.
 
I think some people are just going about their opinions on a game by game basis.

Perhaps it's best to assess only at the end of the season and then form an opinion and I'm hoping that the club follows the same approach
 
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A great result for Poch and Spurs tonight. Impressive how he gets a lot out of the players that he has at his disposal. I think it's good that the club seems to be weighing their options and waiting until the end of the season to make a decision. A big part of becoming a manager for United right now is being able to build a team and we seem to have a great amount of resources to do so. I'm not sure how good Ole is at building a side, while Poch seem more able at the moment.

People talk about United competing on all fronts in every season, but with the squad we have now it's really obvious we need an overhaul with shipping out the deadwood and bringing in some fresh players. We need to allow a manager to do just that to a certain extent. Sure, we tried it with Mourinho but I think he wanted targets that were to some degree unattainable for us. The next manager we hire permanent, be it Poch, Ole or someone else, needs to be given the time to do just that. City and Liverpool have done just that, and it really shows why they're a class above the rest of the league. That Spurs is still in the title race is a pretty good achievement by Poch considering what he has at his disposal.
 
Amadaeus said:
Damn? Dortmund are Bundesliga leaders? Makes this win looks much more impressive.

No one would have predicted this result. Tactical masterclass by Pochettino
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Spurs always beat Dortmund, it was hardly the shock result of the century
 
People who are comparing Poch's yesterday's result with Ole's result this week are missing a big point. Spurs are the team that Poch built. It took him almost 5 years to do so, and during that time they haven't won a single KO tie in Europe. Losses from big clubs like Juve, but also humiliations from Gent and getting eliminated in group stages. Sure, praise him for winning this one, but it took him five 5 years to reach it, and I find very unfair Ole getting criticized so much for losing on his first game in KO of UCL against a better team than BVB.
 
He's just a really impressive manager, no matter if you want Ole instead. Last night he played Vertonghen left wing back and it worked wonders. A tricky first half with Sancho causing porblems, but 2nd half was all Spurs. Poch & his team are clearly excellent readers of a game.

This feels like the 2nd or 3rd season running where he's had to go a period without Kane. Having such a lethal goal scorer in your side can mask some weaknesses as a manager, but Poch has proven now that he can still make his team click without that special player up top.

He's punching way above his weight, compared to Pep, Klopp & Mourinho. He's the best pound for pound manager in the PL. There's only one way to find out if he can handle a bigger budget, extra pressure, bigger ego's and win trophies.
 
Revan said:
People who are comparing Poch's yesterday's result with Ole's result this week are missing a big point. Spurs are the team that Poch built. It took him almost 5 years to do so, and during that time they haven't won a single KO tie in Europe. Losses from big clubs like Juve, but also humiliations from Gent and getting eliminated in group stages. Sure, praise him for winning this one, but it took him five 5 years to reach it, and I find very unfair Ole getting criticized so much for losing on his first game in KO of UCL against a better team than BVB.
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Similarly Ole hasn't shown that he can develop and build a squad that consistently perform in the league, and also have improved in Europe every year under him while improving players and not spending.

It's difficult to compare the two because I have no idea what an Ole team would look like if he was given time.
 
Thisistheone said:
He's just a really impressive manager, no matter if you want Ole instead. Last night he played Vertonghen left wing back and it worked wonders. A tricky first half with Sancho causing porblems, but 2nd half was all Spurs. Poch & his team are clearly excellent readers of a game.

This feels like the 2nd or 3rd season running where he's had to go a period without Kane. Having such a lethal goal scorer in your side can mask some weaknesses as a manager, but Poch has proven now that he can still make his team click without that special player up top.

He's punching way above his weight, compared to Pep, Klopp & Mourinho. He's the best pound for pound manager in the PL. There's only one way to find out if he can handle a bigger budget, extra pressure, bigger ego's and win trophies.
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Yeah, he is such a superb manager. If Ole can prove his worth and gets the job then all good, if not we should break the bank to sign Poch.
 
hellohello said:
Similarly Ole hasn't shown that he can develop and build a squad that consistently perform in the league, and also have improved in Europe every year under him while improving players and not spending.

It's difficult to compare the two because I have no idea what an Ole team would look like if he was given time.
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Bolded part is true. Signs are promising, but the sample is so small. About not spending is not relevant, we spend a lot, so we don't need a manager who can win without spending.

All I am saying is that you cannot compare them in results in Europe considering that Poch had 4.5 years in building the team (and in the first 4 years he totally failed there), while Ole had 2 months.
 
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