There is even more to it, had we not conceded a single goal, we would have still been behind them. Anyone who thinks it's not true, do your own counting, you'd be surprised.
A cohesive modern structure/fluid style of play needs to come first before United can win big
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There is even more to it, had we not conceded a single goal, we would have still been behind them. Anyone who thinks it's not true, do your own counting, you'd be surprised.
Joint 2nd for most saves in the league. What else is he supposed to do to save our asses - score goals as well?
I didn't mean having major success again is not possible, although there's no guarantee that we will ever be as successful as we have in the past just because we're Man Utd. I don't think it's possible with this group of players though, regardless of who the manager is.
I don't buy the notion that Mourinho isn't able to structure a football team, that his style is outdated and for some reason doesn't work anymore because the trend among other top teams is different. He studies the opponent and bases his tactics on how to best counter their way of playing. That's just playing the odds, and if you are good at it, this way you can beat anyone as long as you have top players suited for the different set ups you want to use. I don't see how stubbornly always playing the same way can be more effective. Mourinho doesn't have a clear structure like Pep, but some people are deluding themselves if they think he just let's them attack without any instruction at all.
I'm guessing that the main reason for us not being fluent is mostly because of players not fitting and not being able to gel with each other, as well as constantly changing first elevens. Zlatans injury also meant that we had to start over with getting attackers familiar with eachother. Some inexperienced players and low football IQ could also explain things. Also, it seems like Mourinho has been trying to prove people wrong regarding his history with youngsters, which led to him giving young players too much time. We should have never gone in to this season without getting another experienced winger, at least he realised his mistake and got Sanchez now.
Sometimes assembling a team can't be done that quickly. It's actually more difficult to do for a manager like Mourinho since he doesn't have a strict phylosophy like Pep, therefore he needs more versatile players who can play different roles. I'd be surprised if Mourinho still isn't able to get us to be more fluent after the summer, if he gets the players he believes he still needs.
Do you really think there would be so much criticism about our playing style had City not been as good as they are? Our fans have become obsessed with them. It's funny how half of Redcafe have all the answers and somehow Mourinho hasn't got a clue.
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Stats like this are pointless, and aren't a good way to prove a point.
Playing shite on a stick football with shite tactics will only win you so many games against poor teams, teams who are properly coached have a prolonged period of success. Anyone who says that there is nothing wrong with our attacking football is in denial. I know it's "in fashion" to blame Smalling and Jones, but the problem is further up the field. Does anyone who watches us play think that our players have been coached to play any kind of attacking football other than their instincts.
What about last season, how many saves did he have to make?
And even if he's joint 2nd for saves, most of them have been the type you'd expect a top GK to make, not the kind that only DDG can make. Apart from the Arsenal game where he had a couple, his super saves have been few and far between this season and last season. The "DDG is singlehandedly keeping United in the top half of the table" narrative is a lazy, outdated one and a favorite among ABUs. Our defense is actually decent most of the time.
Unless you are literally blind, there is no way you can't see the fact that DDG has been our best player since Sir Alex retired, including this and last season.
Stats and watching our matches regularly have proven that in my mind.
Maybe you have a point as de Gea is on course for making the most saves since LVG's first season - only 6 short so far with a lot of games to play.
So have we gone backwards in terms of defensive stability this season?
Mourinho is known as a motivator and good man manager. To me it looks more and more like some of the players just don't have the mentality in them.
There is a problem with our attacking football but do you think there is another possible reason for it, other than the manager hasn't "taught them how to attack"?
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Obviously, the other team gathering plaudits on here is a team that's sitting 4 points behind us in the table. There was criticism last season too, when City were barely any better and even earlier before Mourinho even joined us. There was even criticism back when SAF was still winning titles for us (remember the zombie passing threads?). This has very little to do with City and everything to do with ourselves.
Of course we have problems in our attack, nobody is denying that. I'm just saying, the moaning wouldn't have been this severe as we would be fighting for first place with Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham. As it stands, we would be first. Hypothetically, if that country hadn't bought City.
Arsenal were always praised for playing pretty football too, by the way.
I don't agree with that. In cup tournaments like the CL, you can definitely get away with playing ugly football, relying on goal prevention and a healthy amount of luck to carry you through. It's harder to do in the league, but it's still possible.
The problem isn't that you can't win one league title or one CL playing like this, but rather that it's not sustainable.
I'm trying to take an objective view here and, for me, the reality is that Mourinho has always been a massively polarising figure as I'm sure everyone knows, his football may not be the prettiest and his attitude may be really abrasive at times but you take the sacrifice because you know he's going to get you trophies, he's a winner, and you know his teams are pretty successful with a clear identity on the pitch. I think regardless on whoever didn't like Mourinho or did, when he joined the general consensus was that okay regardless of my feelings at this point he's the right man for the club, perhaps the only man for the club, to steady us, take us forward, and bring success back.
The issue now, and I think it's why so many of us are reacting, is that it feels like sacrifices are being made but the rewards are not there, last season was pretty successful by the standard set before of Moyes and LVG, no question about that, the club even stable somewhat, back in the CL and a respectable League finish, but beyond that, there's been no real discernible improvement on the field over an 18 month period, people will say 'Well we are 2nd now what more do you want it's an improvement' but statistics, whilst they can be important, don't tell the full story, clubs around us are playing vastly better football than us, it's impossible not to look over and envy it, i'd imagine you'd feel that way as a player as well, we're the best of a poor bunch currently because the other clubs are making silly mistakes, but that could all conceivably change in a short space of time and we could still end up outside the Top 4. There's been a lot of money spent, is there still room for improvement in the squad? Sure of course, but surely to reinvest further and go that extra mile you need to see tangible evidence on the field that the huge outlay already made by the club as well as some of the talent already here, and yes there is some, is working, and I think most supporters will say it's not, something is not clicking out there and we're so bipolar as a team it's hard to tell if the lads will turn up and play pretty decently, grab a respectable win that makes you think 'Not bad, not bad lets carry on and improve' or if 11 strangers will turn up and act like they've never seen each other before in their life. There's been absolutely no consistency in it whatsoever, and we can point fingers all day long, as Mourinho has a lot of the times this season, at players, their attitude, their mentality, and their willingness to play, but the buck has to stop with the manager somewhere and he has to take some responsibility for what we are seeing. Mkhitaryan, Shaw, now Pogba, I mean he's blamed our entire time at some points during the season.
I've been accused of bashing Mourinho, but personally I don't have anything against the man, infact at first I was quite happy we were bringing him in, thinking we should of brought him in straight after Ferguson for lack of any other real alternatives, but I can only say what i'm seeing on the pitch and what i'm seeing is what i've listed above and I could quite easily list more, something does need to change whether that's a new manager or Mourinho sorting something out, at the moment, in terms of table position and competition placement yes we aren't too bad, but this is football, in a few weeks this could turn into one of the most disastrous seasons we've had in a quite a while and when you consider what happened last season and the money spent it's a massive step back. Again I know people will say well he needs more money he needs more time to rebuild and that we can't keep sacking managers but I just can't get on board with the idea of just chucking more money at this squad and hoping Mourinho sorts something out, again, if there was real tangible consistent evidence that the team was functioning properly, that his buys are working out and that he's making something out of this team and the players at his disposal, i'd wholeheartedly agree, but I'm not seeing it personally and so I just can't agree. I don't think he should be sacked now, of course not, but we should definitely reevaluate our situation at seasons end, and if it's really not favourable then we should begin to think about where to take this club, because quite frankly I can't see it being taken anywhere by this Mourinho that we have, the only Mourinho I could see taking us any further is the one from 10 to 15 years ago.
The issue now, and I think it's why so many of us are reacting, is that it feels like sacrifices are being made but the rewards are not there, last season was pretty successful by the standard set before of Moyes and LVG, no question about that, the club even stable somewhat, back in the CL and a respectable League finish, but beyond that, there's been no real discernible improvement on the field over an 18 month period, people will say 'Well we are 2nd now what more do you want it's an improvement' but statistics, whilst they can be important, don't tell the full story, clubs around us are playing vastly better football than us, it's impossible not to look over and envy it, i'd imagine you'd feel that way as a player as well, we're the best of a poor bunch currently because the other clubs are making silly mistakes, but that could all conceivably change in a short space of time and we could still end up outside the Top 4. There's been a lot of money spent, is there still room for improvement in the squad? Sure of course, but surely to reinvest further and go that extra mile you need to see tangible evidence on the field that the huge outlay already made by the club as well as some of the talent already here, and yes there is some, is working, and I think most supporters will say it's not, something is not clicking out there and we're so bipolar as a team it's hard to tell if the lads will turn up and play pretty decently, grab a respectable win that makes you think 'Not bad, not bad lets carry on and improve' or if 11 strangers will turn up and act like they've never seen each other before in their life. There's been absolutely no consistency in it whatsoever, and we can point fingers all day long, as Mourinho has a lot of the times this season, at players, their attitude, their mentality, and their willingness to play, but the buck has to stop with the manager somewhere and he has to take some responsibility for what we are seeing. Mkhitaryan, Shaw, now Pogba, I mean he's blamed our entire time at some points during the season.
- Sanchez is a fantastic buy of course, but everyone assumed it was for RW, Mourinho has instead shunted our best inform LW in Martial to the right to accommodate Sanchez, i'm sorry but that's poor management.
- Spending so much money on Pogba and not utilising him how he should be correctly used, i do blame Pogba for some of his performances too of course, but this is the kind of player you build your squad around, not try and force him into a square peg round hole situation and placing him into a role he clearly isn't taking to, this has been a consistent issue all season and he's rarely changed it, and now it's ended up with Pogba being almost a scapegoat.
- Lukaku's goal output has dropped from his usual ruthlesness, he's obviously not really getting the service, we can all see that, selfish decisions, playing people through is a rarity, attack looks disjointed, midfield looks disjointed, players bumping into each other, there's doesn't seem to be a focused pattern to our attacking setup and this is leading to too many few and far between chances and Lukaku is suffering for it.
- Individual brilliance, i mean it's been mentioned time and time again this is how Mourinho relies on his attackers, whether you believe it or not it's hard to say otherwise when you see our attacking setup, now of course Mourinho can't score for them, and there have been too many missed easy chances or open goals this season that might of otherwise turned results on their heads, but I remember reading an article recently that we aren't giving our players the tools, or the means, because of how our attack is setup, to avoid missing these golden chances, and I tend to agree with this, this also means that when, say, someone like Martial isn't having his best day, and he misses a sitter, we end up looking awful or losing, where as in a tactical setup that relies on the concentrated effort of the team, Martial might not have his best day but everyone works together as a unit and that negative effect isn't felt.
- Playing players that shouldn't be here anymore, love Fellaini or hate him there's a big argument for him not being good enough to play for us, yet Mourinho trusts him and begs him to stay, playing Ashley Young over Luke Shaw when it's clear Shaw is a much better option on that LB position, supposedly having no trust in Smalling and Jones for a while now but pairs them up together even though Lindelof (his own buy) and Rojo are just sat on the bench
- Passive play, I mention before about the disjointedness of the team on the pitch but everything is just so... passive, there's no pressing, we cower against big teams, we invite pressure, a lot of times we don't try and kill a game off we prefer to sit on a 1-0 lead, transitions are poor at best the majority of the time, our defenders are scared of the ball, we fall apart when teams press us, I could go on, but the evidence is there on the pitch for all to see, It's very hard to defend Mourinho with a lot of these points, we can see this is not your typical Mourinho setup, but it's out there anyway, It's hard not to even slightly suggest that Mourinho's way of playing is outdated now, the game has moved on and i'm not sure he's moved on with it.
I've been accused of bashing Mourinho, but personally I don't have anything against the man, infact at first I was quite happy we were bringing him in, thinking we should of brought him in straight after Ferguson for lack of any other real alternatives, but I can only say what i'm seeing on the pitch and what i'm seeing is what i've listed above and I could quite easily list more, something does need to change whether that's a new manager or Mourinho sorting something out, at the moment, in terms of table position and competition placement yes we aren't too bad, but this is football, in a few weeks this could turn into one of the most disastrous seasons we've had in a quite a while and when you consider what happened last season and the money spent it's a massive step back. Again I know people will say well he needs more money he needs more time to rebuild and that we can't keep sacking managers but I just can't get on board with the idea of just chucking more money at this squad and hoping Mourinho sorts something out, again, if there was real tangible consistent evidence that the team was functioning properly, that his buys are working out and that he's making something out of this team and the players at his disposal, i'd wholeheartedly agree, but I'm not seeing it personally and so I just can't agree. I don't think he should be sacked now, of course not, but we should definitely reevaluate our situation at seasons end, and if it's really not favourable then we should begin to think about where to take this club, because quite frankly I can't see it being taken anywhere by this Mourinho that we have, the only Mourinho I could see taking us any further is the one from 10 to 15 years ago.
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Seems like the level of delusion is reaching an all time high among Pep's followers. That team would be fighting relegation.We'd be absolutely massacred with that central defence and Herrera protecting it. On top of constantly 'losing beautifully' like Bournemourth. We wouldnt even finish top 6! You Pep fans are delusional
I agree but there is only as much you can do as a coach or motivator. In my field as a personal coach I can only motivate to a certain point and give people the right tools for them to acomplish their goals. But it is them who have to get down to the gym and put in the hard work. The same goes to the players within football. You can have all the best tools and coaches around you, but if you don't have the desire to be the very best then it is for nothing. Most people say they want success but reality is that they just kinda want it. They don't want it really bad.
Roy Keane would have the same motivation under any manager...It's in you or it's not. This country has a real issue with blaming the manager. Thats not even half the story. The buck should rest on an effort front with each individual....that includes the manager. He needs to up his game but so do they.
Exactly my point. However I have a hard time putting anything on Mourinho regarding his desire.
That could be the case. I understand what you mean regarding coaching, no matter how hard someone is pushing and trying to motivate you, in the end, it's still up to you to actually want it. Martial for example, especially looks lethargic at times. You can have all the talent in the world but you still need that will to work harder than anyone else.
Hmmm I see the odd thing that I can pick on. The guy who shook the PL up with his 3 subs when not happy to change a game....the guy who had Modric on the touchline before the Nani red card was back in the ref's pocket....compared to the Mou who at Leicester away didn't react when Smalling was injured and Neville was calling the issue 5 mins on commentary before the goal.....the inaction on his part was just so not him.....a commentator seeing something before the great man.....and calling for change for so long...that to me shows a drop in his game.....He's the man for me but I still have to say its those small things he was so great at which define him!
This. We need to see an improvement in the team before we further invest with the manager. We can see it with Arsenal, Liverpool. Arsenal need a top class DM and a CB or two to sort out their team. Liverpool need a top class GK along with a strong DM. I fail to understand what this squad needs to start playing better football. I don't believe adding another player or two to this squad will suddenly make us start playing better football. The problem isn't our defence. It's our attack. We don't create enough chances. We need to create a lot more chances to pin back other team defenses'. We certainly don't put enough pressure on our opposition. We need to develop patterns in our attacks. That falls down to the manager.
Well Mourinho is not perfect he has done mistakes and will most likely continue to do so. That is okay with me. I don't get mad about players and managers making mistakes. If I can see that the players and manager gave it their all then it is fine by me. Sometimes you are unlucky.
Oh I agree but on that occasion thats not a man giving his all.......that's a man who is operating at a lower level than I'm used to seeing....
What about when said manager continues to play an overly defensive midfield set up, when he doesn’t have the right players to do so and so shoe horns his most exciting attacking midfielder into the back midfield line and even though it doesn’t work he persists with it week in week out. Does that not make you a little mad?
Take a look at the quality of our attacking players and Pogba, plus 2 fullbacks who are former wingers, then let that sink in. Other teams are playing much better football with much less.
Amen!
I don’t see how anyone can watch Madrid v PSG and think we’re anywhere close in terms of the football being played.
Playing out from the back, the composure on the ball and the movement in build up. We’re behind in all those aspects.
Playing out from the back, the composure on the ball and the movement in build up. We’re behind in all those aspects.
Maybe there's a possibility that the players are not on the same wavelengths, that they don't fit well with each other or that they haven't had enough time to gel, since we have had a constantly changing starting eleven. And why has it been changing so much? Probably because none of the attackers(bar Zlatan) have been able to nail down a starting spot. Because none of them have been good enough to be given as a starter.
There's only so much a manager can do in terms of style of play etc. If the players are as good as people claim, then they should have at least a decent football IQ to make things work.
Ever since City started taking of this year, people seem to have started believing that he holds a remote control in his hands, controling their every move. People are massively exaggerating how much a manager can actually impact how well his team plays. The other day, I even saw someone saying that Mourinho should teach them how to score 1 on 1's.
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Well that's your opinion, and you're up against one of the best managers the game has ever seen. I'm sure he has his reasons why he makes those choices. How unfortunate that none of the cafs armchair tactical specialists could just relay this simple change in formation to him. But this is such complex tactical thinking though, I don't think Mourinho will understand it, being stuck in his old ways and all.
Sad to say but i agree. The main huge difference is the defenders. CBs and fullbacks all seem capable on the ball and of course both teams have some incredible midfielders and attackers
Well as well as the armchair tactical specialists it also seems to be the unanimous opinion of ex pros, analysts and sports journalists. In fact I have yet to hear anybody talk about Pogba current performances without questioning why he is being deployed in a more defensive role than the one he thrived in at Juve and the one he has thrived in at times at united when used more offensively. People have every right to question why you pay £90m for a player and then deploy him in a position that doesn’t suit him. It doesn’t make them armchair tactical specialists that think they could teach Jose a thing or two.
Don't you think Jose would play a 3 man midfield if he had the players for it? Who do you want to play there, Hererra? Do you seriously believe Mourinho doesn't know what Pogbas best position is?
If you think the ex pros, analysts and journalists are in agreement that Mourinho doesn't know what he's doing and they have that simple answer how to solve our problems, then why don't our owners bring one of these ex players in to do the job then? Because they don't have the resume, and it would be as big of a gamble as if one of the self proclaimed caf experts would get the job.
Madrid couldn't keep the ball for long periods while PSG were caught numerous times trying to play the ball out in dangerous areas by a non pressing side in Madrid.
I'm lost at how tonight was anything we should be in awe of.
I'm lost at how tonight was anything we should be in awe of.
As I said, a manager like Sarri or Pep would not have bought Matic or Lukaku which gives about 120-130M to spend on 2-3 starters wherever you think we're weakest (FB, CB, CM and one attacker depending on if Martial and Sanchez were playing wide or up top), but with the present squad I could see that being the team, though I could also see Matic being the DM and Blind, Jones, Bailly (obviously hasn't been healthy) or even Rojo at CB. Basically anyone but Smalling, and I think Lindelof would suit those managers.
You really think that team would finish out of the top 6? We'd get beaten on the break at times, but we'd also score more goals and like City last year, be obviously in need of 2-3 signings on defence to bolster a top heavy team. No reason to think Pep coaching our current squad wouldn't be somewhere between 2nd and 5th, like Mourinho will be, and most importantly, we'd have an obvious path going forward and play good football.
Not going to even mention City because they are on another level which I don't foresee Mourinho ever matching even if he had unlimited budget, but watching teams like Spurs, Liverpool or even Arsenal makes you leaves you wondering why we cannot put more than 2 passes together unless it's against the lowest level teams.
That is a problem with this forum, no? The moment you express the desire to see your team string two passes together or not hoof incessantly when under pressure, you are assumed to be expecting us to play like City. As if there is nothing between our shitty level and the level where City are at. It's hard to mention without being hounded that you want the team to do the basics right: defend well, keep the ball in the midfield & attack with a cohesive plan.
Probably what Pool fans were saying in the early 00's. We need to get things right pronto. Our neighbours not only have a bottomless pit but have no hired a coach who knows what he's as opposed to before when they had the likes of Pellegrini and Mancini. We can't afford to have this sort of attitude thinking it'll all work out in the end. What are realistic expectations for the biggest club in world football? while it's obvious there's serious competition at the top of the European game but we not there, not even close at this point.
Clubs go through these downward spirals when they are getting it wrong, that's what we've been doing. Instead of hoping our luck will turn we have to put things in place to change that. The man on the negotiation table hasn't got any experience of that and isn't a football man so predictably we get ripped of and have a wage bill of clubs significantly better than us. We can't seem to make an value signings. We don't have a style of play that can be a template for great United sides to come. Our directors are mostly non footballing people.
SAF is gone and we've experienced the consequences, now it's time to get back on track.
I just don't think this is our major problem to be honest. I do agree that against the bigger teams we should go with a 4-3-3 but 4-2-3-1 should be good enough against the lesser teams. Why Mourinho doesn't try and use McTominay with pogba and matic I don't know. I just think our major concern is the mental aspect rather than a tactical one. I only see Alexis and lindgard trying to press when we lose the ball. Matic, pogba Martial and to some extend lukaku just falls back infront our back 4 and press from there.
You wanted Pochetino here bro, seems am fully on board with you.
The biggest issue is a distinct lack of purpose and proactiveness.