A cohesive modern structure/fluid style of play needs to come first before United can win big

[Adisa]

It's also a big problem when plan A fails because the players have nothing hang onto

That's probably right but still explains why they're very good at their "Plan A". They repeat it so much,that their players have become so good at executing their roles within that plan.
Ive not suggested we play like them, before someone makes that accusation.
The point I'm trying to make is, what is our Plan A?
Guardiola has gone to City with a well established plan on how he wants them to play. Identified the members of the squad he inherited, that can play within that system, sold everyone else but those members that he inherited have improved immeasurably because he has drilled that system into them. Sterling (was often the butt of Caf jokes) has improved because he goes into a game, knowing exactly what he's meant to do. It was a role he did last week, the week before and on and on.
20 months into our own transition, I still can't say what kind of team we are, what are the qualities the coach is trying to impact on the team? 20 months in, we are still debating what our best formation is.
We seem to adjust too much to the opponent for my liking. And it's almost like it's every opponent we do this for.

 

[roonster09]

I have no idea why I bolded that part, it was supposed to be the last sentence.

It completely changed your post and a 180 degree shift from your usual opinion.

 

[JPRouve]

It completely changed your post and a 180 degree shift from your usual opinion.

That's interesting, you think that it's a 180 shift from my usual opinion? I confuses myself sometimes.

I like and rate tactical versatility but you need a consistent framework, that's what I liked the most about Barcelona under Guardiola with the same framework they were able to be very defensive, very attacking or play on the counter, all of that was possible because of the way they used possession and pressing. The game plan was totally different depending on how long the players were instructed to press and how high they were supposed to do it. In theory, it's a very simple principle and a very adaptable one, you don't need to change the personnel and you don't ask them to do a completely different job, they are always in their supposed comfort zone.

Mourinho and SAF used to be like that too, they would tweak the approach but rarely revolutionize it.

 

[roonster09]

That's interesting, you think that it's a 180 shift from my usual opinion? I confuses myself sometimes.

I like and rate tactical versatility but you need a consistent framework, that's what I liked the most about Barcelona under Guardiola with the same framework they were able to be very defensive, very attacking or play on the counter, all of that was possible because of the way they used possession and pressing. The game plan was totally different depending on how long the players were instructed to press and how high they were supposed to do it. In theory, it's a very simple principle and a very adaptable one, you don't need to change the personnel and you don't ask them to do a completely different job, they are always in their supposed comfort zone.

Mourinho and SAF used to be like that too, they would tweak the approach but rarely revolutionize it.

Yeah, reading most of your posts gave that impression. That you need a system for players to shine. So all of a sudden saying repetition is sort of bad as players don't have plan B was sort of contradictory to your previous views. At least that's what I thought.

Also to what you are saying, Juventus was also good example. They played 3-5-2, 4-3-1-2 but most of the time their game plan was more or less same. Even with different formations, the general style of their play was almost same. With Vidal being most attacking player, Pogba drifting left, pirlo was playmaker and their fullbacks always pushed higher up the pitch.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, reading most of your posts gave that impression. That you need a system for players to shine. So all of a sudden saying repetition is sort of bad as players don't have plan B was sort of contradictory to your previous views. At least that's what I thought.

Also to what you are saying, Juventus was also good example. They played 3-5-2, 4-3-1-2 but most of the time their game plan was more or less same. Even with different formations, the general style of their play was almost same. With Vidal being most attacking player, Pogba drifting left, pirlo was playmaker and their fullbacks always pushed higher up the pitch.

I thought that you meant the opposite, otherwise you are right I do think that players need a system to shine together, they need a system that exposes their qualities and hide their flaws.

 

[roonster09]

I thought that you meant the opposite, otherwise you are right I do think that players need a system to shine together, they need a system that exposes their qualities and hide their flaws.

Yeah we are on the same page.

 

[Smores]

That's probably right but still explains why they're very good at their "Plan A". They repeat it so much,that their players have become so good at executing their roles within that plan.
Ive not suggested we play like them, before someone makes that accusation.
The point I'm trying to make is, what is our Plan A?
Guardiola has gone to City with a well established plan on how he wants them to play. Identified the members of the squad he inherited, that can play within that system, sold everyone else but those members that he inherited have improved immeasurably because he has drilled that system into them. Sterling (was often the butt of Caf jokes) has improved because he goes into a game, knowing exactly what he's meant to do. It was a role he did last week, the week before and on and on.
20 months into our own transition, I still can't say what kind of team we are, what are the qualities the coach is trying to impact on the team? 20 months in, we are still debating what our best formation is.
We seem to adjust too much to the opponent for my liking. And it's almost like it's every opponent we do this for.

Which of our players don't know thier role in your opinion? The only one is Pogba really and that's because he's failed at being the all rounder he wanted to be. Maybe throw Sanchez in there but even then he's quite consistent in that he'll look to find the ball through to Lukaku 9/10.

Every other player has a very consistent task and you'll know what they're going to do.

 

[Return of the Manc]

Looks like everyone wants a philosophy now.

Fair play to LVG who tried to implement a cohesive structure but was not modern.

People jumped to quickly on what LVG did & went on to the complete opposite side of things; going for a manager who favours individualism& who broke up everything to start again.

People forgot:

• LVG did not come here to manage the club long term, he came to guide the club towards the next manager implemented within or settle which was Ryan Giggs - http://www.skysports.com/football/n...nthony-martial-bought-for-next-manager-not-me
• People rated his football rightfully dire but they didnt analyse what he had managed to do; he managed to to make the bigger teams play on the backfoot due to our football & they rightfully struggled whilst the lower teams on the backfoot causes us a problem with us finding it difficult to break them down. This was hard for the better teams and easier for the teams who were lower down and used to it.
• There was disagreement between LVG & Giggs- which is usual between any managment relationship about how the club was run - but we had the whole league playing reactive football in reaction to us playing a very basic type of possession football under LVG
• All Giggs had to do then was make the appropriate changes on that possesion football to include his own gameplan and freedom that blended with United's way of football and results.
• Instead now we are the team playing restrictive football; playing a reactive type of football not only to the big teams but against smaller teams. On top; Manchester City has managed to become the team who has taken possession and has the whole league playing reactively instead.
• We were on the ladder to be a step ahead under LVG followed by Giggs.
• We had a formation plan 352 that we started with - it was clear players liek Falcao, RVP, Hernandez wernt good enough to form partnerships upfront. It was clear that our defence was all not that good that lacked an attacking and defensive balance.
• Towards the end of LVG's second season we got to see the perfect strikers developing to play upfront in a two (Martial & Rashford), a suprisingly good CAM in Lingard who has shown this season that when playing there he is a completely differently player & would only be better behind strikers like Martial & Rashford- not lukaku as seen in the game against Chelsea when he played behind Rashford playing in a similair formation which I believe was our best performance under Jose who actually continued there what was fundamentally part of our long term plan under LVG & Giggs.
• Giggs wanted to play the lads up front in a partnership; no we have the youngsters competing against eachother for the same position- (http://www.espn.co.uk/football/manc...cus-rashford-partnership-at-manchester-united )
• Towards the end of LVG's second season we saw a defensive partnership developing between Smalling & Blind; the latter who is made for a 3 at the back to provide more defensive and attacking balance which would have only improved with a defender like Baily who has been a wonder addition
• Giggs was the right man to guide us on from LVG; he knew what was right and what was wrong that LVG was doing - which is fundamentally the ladder and progression he needed to be a manager here.

People can go speak and laugh about the whole LVG & Giggs plan for the future; however this was the closet plan for a long term plan to overcome a league for Giggs by the time Guardiola just started.

Now all these pro- Jose fans are turning his back on him & realising there is not quick easy fix at United; it needs to be built from within which we stopped half way through LVG because people got bored. Instead of giving it to Giggs- someone who can progress with united & bring an understanding of growth as a club with regards to players, fans etc; we gave it to someone who is losing all the power he has built up the more jobs that is added to his CV.

People told alot of forum posters here that they will be asking for Giggs, asking for a plan but no - everyone who even mentioned Giggs, LVG, the growth of Manchester United instead of expecting us to be at the top of the game with a non versatile manager like Jose was regarded as WUM on this forum & banned forever.

They are not looking like Wum's now are they? They are seeking a quite a similar path towards giving a management the oppurtunity to build a cohesive modern structure fluid style of play that can only be given through a manager who understands United and is afforded time by fans and leaders of the club.

What will happen is that Jose will struggle midway through next season; lose his job and we will either give this Job to Giggs or Nicky Butt. Then the Wum's should be resurrected from understanding things a different way.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Looks like everyone wants a philosophy now.

Fair play to LVG who tried to implement a cohesive structure but was not modern.

People jumped to quickly on what LVG did & went on to the complete opposite side of things; going for a manager who favours individualism& who broke up everything to start again.

People forgot:

• LVG did not come here to manage the club long term, he came to guide the club towards the next manager implemented within or settle which was Ryan Giggs - http://www.skysports.com/football/n...nthony-martial-bought-for-next-manager-not-me
• People rated his football rightfully dire but they didnt analyse what he had managed to do; he managed to to make the bigger teams play on the backfoot due to our football & they rightfully struggled whilst the lower teams on the backfoot causes us a problem with us finding it difficult to break them down. This was hard for the better teams and easier for the teams who were lower down and used to it.
• There was disagreement between LVG & Giggs- which is usual between any managment relationship about how the club was run - but we had the whole league playing reactive football in reaction to us playing a very basic type of possession football under LVG
• All Giggs had to do then was make the appropriate changes on that possesion football to include his own gameplan and freedom that blended with United's way of football and results.
• Instead now we are the team playing restrictive football; playing a reactive type of football not only to the big teams but against smaller teams. On top; Manchester City has managed to become the team who has taken possession and has the whole league playing reactively instead.
• We were on the ladder to be a step ahead under LVG followed by Giggs.
• We had a formation plan 352 that we started with - it was clear players liek Falcao, RVP, Hernandez wernt good enough to form partnerships upfront. It was clear that our defence was all not that good that lacked an attacking and defensive balance.
• Towards the end of LVG's second season we got to see the perfect strikers developing to play upfront in a two (Martial & Rashford), a suprisingly good CAM in Lingard who has shown this season that when playing there he is a completely differently player & would only be better behind strikers like Martial & Rashford- not lukaku as seen in the game against Chelsea when he played behind Rashford playing in a similair formation which I believe was our best performance under Jose who actually continued there what was fundamentally part of our long term plan under LVG & Giggs.
• Giggs wanted to play the lads up front in a partnership; no we have the youngsters competing against eachother for the same position- (http://www.espn.co.uk/football/manc...cus-rashford-partnership-at-manchester-united )
• Towards the end of LVG's second season we saw a defensive partnership developing between Smalling & Blind; the latter who is made for a 3 at the back to provide more defensive and attacking balance which would have only improved with a defender like Baily who has been a wonder addition
• Giggs was the right man to guide us on from LVG; he knew what was right and what was wrong that LVG was doing - which is fundamentally the ladder and progression he needed to be a manager here.

People can go speak and laugh about the whole LVG & Giggs plan for the future; however this was the closet plan for a long term plan to overcome a league for Giggs by the time Guardiola just started.

Now all these pro- Jose fans are turning his back on him & realising there is not quick easy fix at United; it needs to be built from within which we stopped half way through LVG because people got bored. Instead of giving it to Giggs- someone who can progress with united & bring an understanding of growth as a club with regards to players, fans etc; we gave it to someone who is losing all the power he has built up the more jobs that is added to his CV.

People told alot of forum posters here that they will be asking for Giggs, asking for a plan but no - everyone who even mentioned Giggs, LVG, the growth of Manchester United instead of expecting us to be at the top of the game with a non versatile manager like Jose was regarded as WUM on this forum & banned forever.

They are not looking like Wum's now are they? They are seeking a quite a similar path towards giving a management the oppurtunity to build a cohesive modern structure fluid style of play that can only be given through a manager who understands United and is afforded time by fans and leaders of the club.

The board succumbed to a lack of patience. Plus the fear of losing the likes of De Gea

 

[Return of the Manc]

The board succumbed to a lack of patience. Plus the fear of losing the likes of De Gea

The board and alot of the fans to be fair; Im not here to say I'm a better fan than others (because im not); but people had been trying to open peoples understanding on the long term plan under LVG & Giggs - that looked more closer towards sustained progression than anything short term in reaction to how as a club we were planning to play football & who was planning to manage us.

We had a club that held 'useless possession'; that was not useless against big clubs but useless against lower clubs. What Giggs had to do was to make it useful and find the gaps within the smaller clubs since the Big clubs were reacting to our possesion football which to them could not be matched.

Either way; it's going to happen sooner or later; when people get tired of the quick fix that has caused more harm than fixation
- The fans will see United playing
a) 352
b) wonderful football
c) utilising the youngsters coming through
d) Utilising the youngsters that have come through
e) one of giggs or butt as managers

 

[edcunited1878]

This was the part of your initial post that triggered my question which I am not sure you answered.

"So the quality and consistency of that quality comes first, then the style of play comes second. You can't play chess with checkers."

I asked if you think city added quality a season ago and have now taken care of the cohesion and style of play this season with the quality they acquired last season. The part in bold suggests that's what you're getting at.

Secondly I asked what stage you think we are at currently? Do you think we are currently adding quality and will improve on the style of play in the next season or 2?

Currently, we're two levels off of winning the PL. The consistency home and away (collectively) is not there yet to be within 3 to 5 points of 1st at any point of the season. Then the second level is the true expectation of being able to win it with quality, tactics, depth, etc.

United are currently adding quality and the style of play will improve with player consistency and improvement in a few areas that will take United up the levels necessary. Many players have improved this season because if that wasn't the case, United wouldn't be in the top 4 as they are currently. I'm actually more interested in the manager after Jose because the cupboard will be well stocked (at least it should be) with quality, quality depth, age mix and experience. It'll be up to that manager to be the EXACT opposite of Moyes and improve upon what Jose has done.

 

[redIndianDevil]

So in other words, Jose isn't actually suited to a 'big' club. His 'motivation' works best with so called underdogs. If he doesn't get a grip we're fecked

Exactly his strategy is perfectly suited for an underdog, the players at those clubs will be willing to do anything the manager asks if it means winning trophies(they'd have no chance of any glory otherwise). His recruitment I think is also at odds with our club, he was desperate for Perisic but I think Woodward was not willing to spend much for him.

 

[f_to_z]

I totaly agree with OP. We are lacking a style of play, not just a style that suits us but any style whatsoever. Matches seem very random racticaly wether we win or lose. Just think with me for a second, our next few matches can you predict what will happen? Can you vision the way we will perform. I dont. Now visualize City or Liverpool for example. I know exactly how they are going to play from the start. It does not matter if they win or lose. They have a style an identity, a way of play which the players adapt to and perfect. This perfection of a style of football and the players adaptation to it is what will bring consistency and then we can compete. At the current time we are not playing football. What makes it worse is Mourinho is in denial and does not see that we are playing bad outdated football. Even if he wins us the premier league like this next year i would still think its bad football.