Something like this needs to occasionally be said on here, just to bring the football Einsteins back to reality.
A cohesive modern structure/fluid style of play needs to come first before United can win big
- Thread starter Raees
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Exactly. We need to think long term rather than short term. We've been thinking short term well into Fergie's latter years and we're paying the price for it now. We need to get a manager in who will transform our style of play that's suited to a club of Manchester Uniteds resources and standing in the game and then the trophies will come. We don't need trophies at the cost of our style of football.
People claim those that want Poch will be on his back if he doesn't win anything in his first year. This isn't true. I'll speak for myself here but if we were to get Poch, I wouldn't expect a single trophy in his first year; they'd just be a bonus. In his first year, what I'd want is for him to get us playing in a way all the big clubs do - setting a formation, figuring out who fit's his style, getting the players adjusted to his way of playing, improving our off the ball movement and understanding. Then, once he's done that which I'm sure he could do, we'd have a much better chance at challenging for trophies for years to come.
People claim those that want Poch will be on his back if he doesn't win anything in his first year. This isn't true. I'll speak for myself here but if we were to get Poch, I wouldn't expect a single trophy in his first year; they'd just be a bonus. In his first year, what I'd want is for him to get us playing in a way all the big clubs do - setting a formation, figuring out who fit's his style, getting the players adjusted to his way of playing, improving our off the ball movement and understanding. Then, once he's done that which I'm sure he could do, we'd have a much better chance at challenging for trophies for years to come.
Not really. The forum is for discussion, and no one is saying those who support Mourinho shouldn't do so.
Arrogant shite like this does nothing for discussion. There are quite clearly issues with the team. Bury your head in the sand if you like, but stop trying to insult others. for voicing their concern.
but you're okay with the fact that mourinho has won titles before?
saying we can't win without playing fluid football is flat wrong and just pointing it out
Please, dont resort to denial. All 3 City managers since 2012 favour possession based, fluid, free flowing attack oriented football. Mancini on the lower scale, Pellegrini in the middle, Pep as the pinnacle. Guardiola did not take over a club at which his preferred style of football was an alien style to the playing staff.
Really? Pep was able to over haul a good number of what he inherited. Even though he joined a team that planned harmoniously for 6 years for his arrival.
Seriously? You think Heynckes was not playing free flowing, possession based, fluid attack oriented football? Why do you think Bayern targeted Pep to replace him?
Have they hired a single manager since he left with a similar footballing philosophy to his? No.
Im sorry but this is a load of utter nonsense. Mourinho has nothing in common with David Moyes style of managing nor football. Moyes likes slow, possession based build up with loads of crosses and natural width from full backs, and wide men as playmakers. A Mourinho team functioning at top capacity in comparison is is geared towards speedy counter attacking and transition play. Plus uses inside out wingers or inside forwards. Mourinho only has controversy and work ethic in common with LVG. LVG is possession hungry and control obsessed. To Mourinho possession is a secondary means to and end and he is direct and transition based. Its a disingenuous and shockingly bad use of logic to ever claim our last 3 managers "have similar styles. That is a classic example of the dishonesty on here amongst Mourinho critics.
It doesn't have to be fluid, there just has to be a plan though. And one that clearly works. What we're doing is just unbalanced and looks a mess every game and it leads to shit, disjointed performances most of the time. Nobody is saying we have to play like City. But there has to be a plan and Mourinho has to get the team to play that way. I would suggest a lot of what Pochettino does is what Mourinho wants, but they are just better drilled. We have better players and are ahead in the league, but they blatantly look more balanced and a better "team". You can say the same that Liverpool also looks a better side with a clear plan, they just make stupid mistakes often that holds them back.
The difference with us is that we just look aimless too often. It doesn't have to be fluid, but it's just a collection of individuals and clearly there are mix ups in what they should be doing as we never play a similar type of pattern when on the ball, and defensively we get exposed too often. It's clearly either just a plan that doesn't work, or one that isn't getting through to the players, because there has been no evidence of us building towards a certain style or system or anything in particular in the 18 months that Mourinho has been here.
The difference with us is that we just look aimless too often. It doesn't have to be fluid, but it's just a collection of individuals and clearly there are mix ups in what they should be doing as we never play a similar type of pattern when on the ball, and defensively we get exposed too often. It's clearly either just a plan that doesn't work, or one that isn't getting through to the players, because there has been no evidence of us building towards a certain style or system or anything in particular in the 18 months that Mourinho has been here.
Well said. Those posters who think there is no problem with our stodgy, incoherent and outdated style of footie are subjectively unable to face our reality.
An objective realistic assessment will observe how awful and cowardly we really are, especially in big games. We have some of the most exciting prospects in world football playing for us yet we have to watch Mourinho resort to small club mentality serving defensive stodge and impotent, incoherent attack, week in week out.
Tottenham, Liverpool, Chelsea and even Arsenal are playing much better than us atm. This is a shame as I believe we have the more naturally talented footballers but they are forced to play in a botched compromise of a system that does not know what it's trying to achieve.
There is no sense of fight, no spirit, no identity, no team cohesion, no fluency, no pressing, no discernible pattern of play, no chemistry and with players like Pogba and Lukaku regressing we will be very lucky to maintain top 4 status. Whatever the team is being coached is not working. In fact there is little evidence of any coaching in our play whatsoever. Its like eleven guys just met up for a kick about. That is absolutely scandalous for a club who want to compete for major trophies especially after our spend.
Clueless, indecisive and outdated botch job from Mourinho. We never hunt in packs. We never close down opposition when we give the ball away. We never high press. We sit back and invite pressure if we take a one goal lead. How we manage to look completely bereft of any plan, any coached sequences or pattern of play is beyond comprehension. It can't be fun to play in this shackled stodgy and confused formation. Worryingly individual players beginning to look confused, lacking in self belief and short on inspiration and aggression. This is all down to Mourinho's lack of street savvy. Even his post match interviews it appears that he is confused. He seems to confusedly think that maturity in management implies accepting a loss of raw aggression. That is a fatal flaw.
I'd like to bury my head in the sand like some of the posters on here, those who arrogantly, falsely accuse the realists as being whingers and spoilt, but I'd rather face the truth. Mourinho's outmoded 'stodge and counter' tactics will not suffice against today's high pressing, free flowing footie teams. If he can not adapt and get the team playing coherently by the end of the season then we need to get him out. Another season of confusion and disappointment will have drastic effect on the players progress and self belief.
No fuss, no hysterics just calmly thank him for his contribution and get a forward looking manager in.
I agree with the OP.
No one is clamoring for Pep's Barcelona out here, but it'd be nice to see a more progressive system in place.
No one is clamoring for Pep's Barcelona out here, but it'd be nice to see a more progressive system in place.
I don't know how anyone can deny that there are issues with our style of play.
I suppose it's the sense that people have accepted Jose's tumescent style as it get results.
But we aren't getting the results we desire nor do we play good football. So I think it's fair to criticize him, but some don't want to. Likely, because of their faith in Jose to achieve success.
Also I think the forum is somewhat divided on this subject, because it stems from Jose himself. Half of the people on here don't like him(I am one I admit, but I do hope for success ofc) and half wanted him after SAF to succeed him and are fans of him, so they are of more accepting of his approach.
We’re a badly coached unit. 29th minute vs Newcastle matic has the ball from DeGea and he’s looking to launch a quick counter. One glance to his right and Martial is walking about the halfway line looking to receive it to the feet ...by then their defenders have already recovered. Martial saunters with the ball across midfield before getting tripped and it brings a question of what he was even doing there in the first place.
We rarely put enough attacking players on the opponent box and that’s why we don’t score.
We rarely put enough attacking players on the opponent box and that’s why we don’t score.
Won’t lie it’s a bit depressing seeing Spurs going to Juventus and taking the game to one of the top teams in Europe,and then knowing we’re going to go to Sevilla and sit deep and play cagey and hope for them to make a mistake.
I generally liked Mourinho even from his Chelsea days. What he's doing here isn't the same as what he was before though. Or he might be trying, but the on pitch performances are way different. We aren't well drilled or organized as a defensive unit, and on top of that we usually look disjointed going forward. Mourinho's sides in the past were well drilled defensively and knew what they were doing going forward, nothing glamorous but were clearly well drilled. We just look like a collection of individuals, which isn't common for his sides at all. And that's the issue. There would be a lot less complaints if we had the right intensity in games, looked like we knew what we were doing and looked like we had a plan. Even if it was something like Atletico Madrid or Juventus where they have a really solid defensive unit but aren't special going forward.
That's a good post. The assumption on here from some is that if you criticize the manager or our current style of play it is because you are swooning over Pep and his City team. When in fact that is not the expectation from a Jose team. What you expect from a Jose team is machine like efficiency and consistency. You expect the team to be solid at the back and functional in the middle and in attack. The team that eek out results after results week in and week out. Because let's be honest, it's the results that make Jose, his football and his general demeanor bearable.
The issue with us is that we don't look like a well coached and well managed team. We can be all over the place on defense when chasing a game or defending a narrow lead, our midfield is unusually open & our attacking unit looks clueless at most times. It feels like our team can unravel at any time.
I have a sneaky feeling that the players aren't buying into JM's coaching methods.
The amount of stupid goals we have conceded this season is mind blowing. Minus those silly goals, we wouldn't be that far behind City.
OP has got a lot right, I have never seen us this disjointed. There is no identifiable or prevalent patterns in our attacking play, we just seem to rely on individual brilliance.
So you think the reason we're far behind City is "stupid goals" conceded? Interestingly, City have conceded one more goal than us. So I'd envisage (and maintain) there's little between the two defences.
More interestingly, City have scored 79 league goals to our somewhat measly 51. I think that's why we're behind City. Goals. We're shit at that and have been since Ferguson retired.
The squad is good enough, the manager is good enough, the tactical decision made by Mourinho every single game will be always be a gamble just like any other football tactics. I refuse to believe there is one tactic or play style or structure that could beat every team, every time. For me the it's not about being "modern" or "fluid" or whatever. If you love that type of football then fair enough, They matter to you. But for me, the main problem is the lack of consistency to keep on winning games. That is up to the players but even more, the manager.
Our position right now is similar to that of Real Madrid under Mourinho. They faced an incredibly talented Barcelona team full of world class players and lost the league to them. But They kept progessing and finally snatched the title from Barca also under Mourinho.
I believe that Manchester United is improving. Compared to Moyes and Van Gaal We're in a much much better position. I honestly can't think of a better manager than Mourinho for United as of this moment. We've been shit ever since Fergie left, but We're less shit now. I don't expect us to win the league this season considering how We've changed managers that have different views on football three times compared to City who's also changed managers but They're all possession based managers, as someone stated in this thread.
It's easy to overlook your own progress when you see your neighbor doing very well compared to you, especially if his method is way different than you. You'd then think "Maybe what I've been doing is really, really wrong". The grass is always greener on the other side. We're 2nd, I expect us to finish 2nd. I'm happy with Mourinho considering how shite We were before He came here, it almost as if We were turning into the next Liverpool.
United can win big and win trophies when They start winning games. Using which tactics? any football tactics.
Our position right now is similar to that of Real Madrid under Mourinho. They faced an incredibly talented Barcelona team full of world class players and lost the league to them. But They kept progessing and finally snatched the title from Barca also under Mourinho.
I believe that Manchester United is improving. Compared to Moyes and Van Gaal We're in a much much better position. I honestly can't think of a better manager than Mourinho for United as of this moment. We've been shit ever since Fergie left, but We're less shit now. I don't expect us to win the league this season considering how We've changed managers that have different views on football three times compared to City who's also changed managers but They're all possession based managers, as someone stated in this thread.
It's easy to overlook your own progress when you see your neighbor doing very well compared to you, especially if his method is way different than you. You'd then think "Maybe what I've been doing is really, really wrong". The grass is always greener on the other side. We're 2nd, I expect us to finish 2nd. I'm happy with Mourinho considering how shite We were before He came here, it almost as if We were turning into the next Liverpool.
United can win big and win trophies when They start winning games. Using which tactics? any football tactics.
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You're kidding yourself if you think we might win the CL. We don't have any sort of record against good teams under Jose. Just look at his approach. The odd scraped win here and there but in general we crap ourselves and lose. Same will happen in the CL. We won't get past the quarters if we somehow manage to beat Seville.
The Fa cup.... maybe. And that's only because the stronger teams left will be going for bigger things. And it's not a big trophy anymore IMO. .
The table wont lie at the end of the Season.
Unless something clicks and Jose does something different we'll be 5th place and then what.
Nice optimism but it trivialises legitimate concerns. Has it occurred to you that the consistency you speak off comes from not having a set style of play? Teams find consistency in their identity and we have none.There's no support system to fall back on if our attackers don't provide any individual moments of brilliance.
And I think by now it's clear that the concerns have nothing to do with City. Truth is with how much we've spent and the quality of our squad, we shouldn't be sweating bullets about the chances of finishing outside the top 4, getting outclassed by every half decent opponent, struggling to put away relegation teams and playing a brand of football that makes the fans want to fast forward to the fulltime result.
We all love the team and can't stand seeing teams like Tottenham outclass us on shoestring budgets
Spurs played with courage taking the game to the opponents. When you play on front foot and with plan, everything looks easier. They just kept going for for the goal and even when it was 2-2 they attacked Juventus and we are talking about one of the best tactically drilled teams in Europe.
That's how ManUtd used to play, play without fear. Now we don't, Jose lack courage or ability to go toe to toe. Hopefully we will be more adventurous in our play, we have players to play opposition off the park and dominate games.
That's how ManUtd used to play, play without fear. Now we don't, Jose lack courage or ability to go toe to toe. Hopefully we will be more adventurous in our play, we have players to play opposition off the park and dominate games.
We are not exactly an attacking team and we are supposedly a team which is defensively solid. If we are not going to excel in that area, what else do we have? We are definitely not going to outscore the opponent so we have to do something better than the rest.
I believe if we didn't conceded those stupid goals, we would definitely be closer to City right now.
Pogba, Sanchez, Lingard, Mata, Rashford, Martial, Lukaku. Yet "we are not exactly an attacking team".We are definitely not going to outscore the opponents".
This sums us up under Mourinho. We have the best attacking line up on paper but have accepted the conservative stodge Mourinho serves up.
We need to stop accepting the tumescent football that Mourinho is happy with.
Absolutely. Our defenders aren’t perfect (not great on the ball), and our set piece defending looks pretty clueless (not just defenders and surely a coaching issue), but the enthusiasm the Caf has for slagging them off is completely irrational.
They’re obviously blessed by having DDG behind them, but that advantage is lost by the midfield having so little control.
This.
I agree.
Howevr I think "style" is a red herring and is best left to the Scousers ("we need to play the Liverpoooool way").
The main concern is currently that Jose's plan isn't working. Whether that's style, players, tactics, mentality etc. is to be debated but I don't think any of us would complain about the team sitting back if it looked solid and threatening on the counter.
At the moment the team are simply too passive/mentally weak, particularly against the big teams.
I wouldn't say we are a defensive team...far from it.
We are just passive.
When you watch us, you just get the sense we are waiting for something to happen.
I'm not having "it's cause of the players" angle.
Direction has to come from the coach.
Look at how purposeful City, Liverpool and Spurs are. It's not cause they have superior players, their managers insist on it.
We are just passive.
When you watch us, you just get the sense we are waiting for something to happen.
I'm not having "it's cause of the players" angle.
Direction has to come from the coach.
Look at how purposeful City, Liverpool and Spurs are. It's not cause they have superior players, their managers insist on it.
I don’t think we would need the things the OP calls us to have if we just played like a proper Jose team. The problem is we aren’t, and quite a few of his signings seem not to be his type of player at all.
There’s no doubt that Alexis is though. Yes it’s not great that Martial has been displaced, but he’s not been doing enough to have become untouchable. And if Jose reckons that McTominay can carry out his instructions for the good of the team better than Pogba, that’s good by me.
What the team needs right now is to become more Jose-like. Let’s not think about another complete change of direction until Hudds and Sevilla have done us over and we’re out of the top four. Not all of which will happen, incidentally.
There’s no doubt that Alexis is though. Yes it’s not great that Martial has been displaced, but he’s not been doing enough to have become untouchable. And if Jose reckons that McTominay can carry out his instructions for the good of the team better than Pogba, that’s good by me.
What the team needs right now is to become more Jose-like. Let’s not think about another complete change of direction until Hudds and Sevilla have done us over and we’re out of the top four. Not all of which will happen, incidentally.
What style did we play under Fergies last decade in charge out of interest? Didn't do to bad relying on individual talent then
I find these threads usually just contain laxy analysis in the form of the latest buzz words and silver bullets. This thread isn't much different to many under Fergie except people didnt direct so much ire at the manager (for obvious reasons) but the contradiction is interesting
And if my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle.
What you are saying is that he can win the title only when no one else does well?
Oh yes, and the United Way is as much about winning, ruthlessness and a degree of healthy cynicism as it is about pretty football.
I understand Pogba's done himself no favours as of late and irrespective of whats been going on the manager should have the power and be listened to. But we spent £90million on Pogba and he has the attributes to be one of the best players in world football, certainly he has to be the player we build around, but what I will suggest is, after he bought Pogba, if he can't find a system that gets the best out of him so instead he just settles for a far inferior player in McTominay just because he's doing a better job in this system, then i suggest we replace the system and find a way to get the better of Pogba instead
The irony is we'll probably be the ones to make one.
Watching Spurs over the last three weeks has thoroughly ruined my morale.
The reason is simple.
I'm convinced their squad of players isn't any better than ours.
Oh please stop with all these needless SAF comparisons. Mourinho is miles and miles off SAF. While we may not have exactly been fluid under SAF we created loads of chances in most of the matches. And we didn't exactly spend much under SAF too,
For your information, football evolves.
I even think it's one of the problems here and why I think it will never change under this manager.
Mourinho is trying to win the league the same way he's always done it and get the team to play the same as he's always done.
Just have a look at the best teams in the world at this moment. There's something all of them share. They're very aggressive with and without the ball. We just look very passive and no amount of money is going to change that. The direction has to come from the manager.
We look like a team always waiting for the opponent to make a mistake. The best teams don't do that. It might have worked in 2004, 2010 or even 2015. But football doesn't stay the same.
Sorry this is a forum, it isn't a safe space for tantrums.
SAF laters teams defied the types of labels that got thrown around then and now as "required" by the modern game. In fact the last two premier league winners don't really fit into the style most here want to see, yes they had patterns of play but it falls into the apparently outdated. Lets face it we're all just a little envious of city thats all this is and it happens every time someone is better than us.
Everyone lauds City, Liverpool, Spurs attacking football and always trying to play on the front foot, while labelling us a counter attacking team.
Those team are even better at counter attacking than us.
Those team are even better at counter attacking than us.
Didn't read OP but I agree with the title of the thread. As much as I rate Mourinho and back him 100%, it's depressing watching games like City vs Liverpool and Spurs vs Juventus and watching how far behind we are in terms of attacking ability and fluidity.
What makes it worse is we have absolutely brilliant attacking players in Pogba (if moved up the pitch in an Erikson type role) Martial, Lukaku (Belgain NT when he gets service), Sanchez for a front 3-4 and bench players like Rashford, Lingard and Mata.
Put those players with two new full backs in a team managed by Pep and they would be devastating.
What makes it worse is we have absolutely brilliant attacking players in Pogba (if moved up the pitch in an Erikson type role) Martial, Lukaku (Belgain NT when he gets service), Sanchez for a front 3-4 and bench players like Rashford, Lingard and Mata.
Put those players with two new full backs in a team managed by Pep and they would be devastating.
Of course their squad isn’t better. Blaming the players is just the go to excuse to justify managers underperforming. Our squad, particularly our attacking players could be doing so much more.
Yes Chelsea last season and Leicester before that weren't exactly a possession based 4-3-3 sides but they were cohesive and fluid in what they did, they weren't a disorganized mess like we are this season. If we had looked like 2005 Chelsea or the 2010 Inter this season I wouldn't mind but we are not, we are a nothing style football team now. Neither do we attack like Barca nor do we defend like Inter or Chelsea, we are a disorganized inbetween team and have been since SAF left. Mourinho was supposed to fix that and 1.5 years later we are still a disorganized inbetween team. That is the issue(at least mine) not that we aren't playing like Guardiola.