City have lost once lol they are exceptional. If we were 2 pts behind them I doubt we would have dropped the points we have - players aren't motivated at all
A cohesive modern structure/fluid style of play needs to come first before United can win big
- Thread starter Raees
- Start date
Oh come on, I just now used the "if my auntie had bollocks...." statement and you are responding again with a hypothetical situation?
Oh and by the way we were ahead of City and probably have been behind City by 2 or 3 points over the course of this season, where was the motivation then?
With all due respect your can't really believe this, can you?
I think teams get more points of they are challenging for something and close to the top of the table. I can't believe you don't believe that ?? If we had a game vs Newcastle and it had no effect on league table vs a game to go top you don't think mourinho would get players motivates more for the second game? With 'all due respect most people would disagree with you
We were playing better then...
Not sure about others who complain about our style of play. I personally dont mind us being defensive, for me there is nothing ugly about being good at defending, problem in that case for me is what we do with a ball after we win it. Against better teams, after winning a ball we hoof in full coward mode, we look like Sunday league team fighting for relegation.
We win the ball and we hoof it, most of times we looked clueless when it comes to counterattacking.
On other hand when we dominate possession, our attacking play in final third is out of ideas, now dont get me wrong, i dont expect us to look like aliens out there but come on, at least do basics in final third. Looking how our full backs play in opposition`s third is enough for cry, let alone other areas. There arent runs behind, between full back and center back, nothing.
If you dont know how to play on the ground, go practice crossing 24/7 on Lukaku, funny enough, set pieces and crossing in general are also bad. What on earth they do on training then!?
We win the ball and we hoof it, most of times we looked clueless when it comes to counterattacking.
On other hand when we dominate possession, our attacking play in final third is out of ideas, now dont get me wrong, i dont expect us to look like aliens out there but come on, at least do basics in final third. Looking how our full backs play in opposition`s third is enough for cry, let alone other areas. There arent runs behind, between full back and center back, nothing.
If you dont know how to play on the ground, go practice crossing 24/7 on Lukaku, funny enough, set pieces and crossing in general are also bad. What on earth they do on training then!?
Agree. I too don't mind the style of play but we don't seem to have any. Even with Van Gaal, from day 1, we could see what he was trying and we all could see the flaws.
With us now, I still don't know how we play and what exactly it is that we do.
We try to pass it but our players are so poor at it that things break down. We try a swift counter but our players look like they have never practised together and the move again breaks down. Even hoofing it like West Brom does not work because even though our players are tall, they are very poor in the air.
We can just vaguely say that we try our best to be pragmatic about the match.
We could be out of the top 4 in a few weeks.
You put in 100% in every match. Respect your opponents, respect your own fans, especially the match going fans.
@Raees its not so much that we need to play in a more attractive way, we just need to start playing well. Analysing our games there is something missing and it does look like a bunch of strangers at times just out on the pitch playing as individuals. There is no real pattern to any of our play. It’s just slow and laboured and really lacks an intensity to it. It’s like our players think they have a god gifted right to win and just don’t seem to get out of 3rd gear, they just think their individual qualities will pull them through.
Also if someone had told me we’d have Matic and Pogba in our midfield and it wouldn’t be as good as an aging Carrick and Giggs i’d Spit out my drink.
Personally on the style I think we have players who would be better in a more adventurous formation/style. Maybe Jose doesn’t trust his CB’s and the 2 CM’s to allow it to flow more freely. I remember a thread at the start of the season and getting hammered because I said I don’t think our defence is actually as good as the stats suggest and although we still have the best record think more are seeing we are poor.
Was thinking about this yesterday and although they are 5th and 3rd currently Liverpool and Spurs are both better teams than us. Just the things they do on the pitch. Both of course aren’t perfect and if we could get our team to get to that level we’d be smashing people.
Also if someone had told me we’d have Matic and Pogba in our midfield and it wouldn’t be as good as an aging Carrick and Giggs i’d Spit out my drink.
Personally on the style I think we have players who would be better in a more adventurous formation/style. Maybe Jose doesn’t trust his CB’s and the 2 CM’s to allow it to flow more freely. I remember a thread at the start of the season and getting hammered because I said I don’t think our defence is actually as good as the stats suggest and although we still have the best record think more are seeing we are poor.
Was thinking about this yesterday and although they are 5th and 3rd currently Liverpool and Spurs are both better teams than us. Just the things they do on the pitch. Both of course aren’t perfect and if we could get our team to get to that level we’d be smashing people.
So why are we 16 pts behind them when "we were playing better then"?
Yes that is the problem, even when hoofing it downfield our players don't aim, our forward doesn't hold the ball up. Even Burnley has much better clarity, plan and fluidity compared to us when we are trying to be pragmatic.
Totally agree.
That is why I changed the thread title to fluid rather than attacking style of play because it was fair to say it doesn't necessarily have to be attacking to be successful. What I will say is that in the history of football, generally proactive attacking football wins much more trophies than the odd counter-attacking pragmatic teams which break the mould - but that is a question for another thread.
Fluidity is paramount though, even a side like Leicester a few years back or the Chelsea that won under Jose, they were fluid. They set up pragmatically yes, but the ball flowed from back to front very smoothly, they defended as cohesive units and attacked as cohesive units with everyone aware of their role and what they needed to do on and off the ball.
With United I see alot of confusion, alot of broken moves, lots of bad decisions, it is all very stodgy and we are an ugly side to watch. There is alot of disharmony and it has nothing to do with being defensive, but the Liverpool display.. it was an ugly display, it was just defending but no way of getting out once you've won the ball.. we looked a broken side and since then we've just played in fits and spurts.. we rarely play like we are at full throttle, or the team knows exactly what they are doing. Arsenal and Everton are two recent games where we got the best out of Pogba and looked like a slick outfit, but definitely feels like they are outliers rather than the norm. The fact both displays occured when we changed formation, is not a good thing because it suggests we are still nowhere near a fixed formation, a fixed lineup and you need that consistency in structure in order to develop patterns of play on and off the ball, for players to gel together.
Even someone like Lukaku he adds to the inconsistency because if your first touch is inconsistent and you're the front man, its going to lead to attacks sometimes sticking or others will break down.. compare that to say Diego Costa whose hold up play was generally immaculate. But lets just say we played Lukaku in a way where once we get the ball, he drifts to the right and gets it to feet.. little patterns of play like that would increase fluidity and get the best out of him, because we are giving him the ball where he feels comfortable. Little nuances like that are missing from our play, we just seem to make it up as we go along with no deep thought behind where we are picking the ball up, where we need to pass it to, what runs need to be made. I don't rate City that highly, but they look better coached, as do Liverpool, Spurs.
People point to Jose's past, but I am sorry that is neither here nor there.. because LVG created a legendary team in Ajax, but he was below par here which is what counts. This does not resemble a classic Mourinho team to me and yet we have spent absolute shitloads and for me, it would be a huge gamble to gut half the squad yet again in the belief that he can put it all right. I think if he fails to turn it around by the end of the season, and next year is similar to this.. we are best off getting a new manager who is in coaching terms top notch, and can really put in a proper structure and get us playing fluently and like we are a team not a collection of talented individuals.
The winner requirement needs to be put aside for now, because we need a structure, a playing identity first and then once we have that in place, trophies can follow. Right now we are trying to run before we can walk. This is summed up by the signing of Pogba.. an icing on the cake sort of player, not the heartbeat of a side. We can't afford to splash cash on players like that, we need to focus on bricks and mortar players and build the foundations first, instead of splashing out on fancy lipstick to put on a pig.
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I feel that the lack of system or identity is our biggest problem. We aren’t a hard working team, a pressing team, a counter attacking team, a tiki taka team etc. We just seem to play football and due to the fact that we have some great players we are capable of crafting something to win matches.
And it's the biggest reason why individuals within the team don't seem to be improving.
Looking at Liverpool, Spurs and City with the talent each has, they seem as a team, greater than the sum of their parts.
We look like a bunch of individuals.
@Adisa nailed it by calling us a passive team. Perfect description for us at the moment.
Considering Jose provides no instructions he sure does like to bench people for not following his instructions or tactical indiscipline
Well we could try to replicate the Juventus setups he thrived in, but it wouldn’t be easy and would have a high risk of failure. This isn’t Serie A.
City and spurs play a 3 man midfield. Seems to be working for them.
There certainly is a visible problem with the way we attack and play in general.
Jose is a master at organising a defensive unit, but the personnel at his disposal is mediocre, on the contrary, we have above average to brilliant personnel in attack, but Jose's tactics have been found wanting.
Jose is a master at organising a defensive unit, but the personnel at his disposal is mediocre, on the contrary, we have above average to brilliant personnel in attack, but Jose's tactics have been found wanting.
I don't necessarily adopt the finality of your opinion as it is expressed in the first sentence but I'll certainly give you a strong point about the poor execution of the tactical plan. Only the thought that we're about to restart our CL campaign with most certainly a rather cautious approach to get the job done and that we'll depend on a back-four line which consists of Young-Smalling-Jones-Valencia makes me frown with a mixture of nervousness and sadness.
Maybe he's caught between two minds atm, i honestly can't say. When he first arrived at OT i thought that he would prioritize the creation of a confident side through defensive stability. That's what he's best at, after all. But this hasn't happened thus far during his tenure. Silly mistakes at the back lots of open gaps between our lines. The weird thing is that his choices are far from being described as "classic Jose" moves. Firstly, take a look at the two centre-halves he signed, Bailly and Lindelof. They're not your prototypical Mourinho defenders which means players who are experienced and excellent at clearing everything that comes in their box. They are known for being more proactive CBs with a tendency to play in front of the forward and presumably good with the ball at their feet. Jones and Rojo belong in the same category too. Last season's experiment with Blind at CB/LB was not typical Mourinho either. And we also have the manager who opted for good defensively full-backs and even used centre-halves in that role following LvG in trusting makeshift full-backs as his first choices.
I think he acknowledges the weaknesses of his system in the modern era when all the more sides become better on the ball and aim to win the ball high on the pitch. But i also believe that he will exhaust all chances in order to make his initial plan work one way or another with slight alterations. Still set the team to defend deep and use transition football to attack but trade some solidity and toughness at the back for more urgency and ball playing skills and also sacrifice some positional/tactical awareness next to the holding midfielder for sheer charisma on the ball in tight spaces and against pressing tactics.
The result of all that is that we're stuck in no man's land. We're not a good Mourinho team and we're sailing into uncharted waters because the man at the helm seems to be still trying to figure out the course we should take himself. I chose to focus on the back-six because they are the backbone of any good Mourinho side. If they manage to establish confidence through good defending in the whole team and work out a way to play correctly the first two passes out of the back, things automatically improve. From that point forward, we have players to finish the job. But if we'll ever get to that point is still questionable under the current circumstances.
Maybe he's caught between two minds atm, i honestly can't say. When he first arrived at OT i thought that he would prioritize the creation of a confident side through defensive stability. That's what he's best at, after all. But this hasn't happened thus far during his tenure. Silly mistakes at the back lots of open gaps between our lines. The weird thing is that his choices are far from being described as "classic Jose" moves. Firstly, take a look at the two centre-halves he signed, Bailly and Lindelof. They're not your prototypical Mourinho defenders which means players who are experienced and excellent at clearing everything that comes in their box. They are known for being more proactive CBs with a tendency to play in front of the forward and presumably good with the ball at their feet. Jones and Rojo belong in the same category too. Last season's experiment with Blind at CB/LB was not typical Mourinho either. And we also have the manager who opted for good defensively full-backs and even used centre-halves in that role following LvG in trusting makeshift full-backs as his first choices.
I think he acknowledges the weaknesses of his system in the modern era when all the more sides become better on the ball and aim to win the ball high on the pitch. But i also believe that he will exhaust all chances in order to make his initial plan work one way or another with slight alterations. Still set the team to defend deep and use transition football to attack but trade some solidity and toughness at the back for more urgency and ball playing skills and also sacrifice some positional/tactical awareness next to the holding midfielder for sheer charisma on the ball in tight spaces and against pressing tactics.
The result of all that is that we're stuck in no man's land. We're not a good Mourinho team and we're sailing into uncharted waters because the man at the helm seems to be still trying to figure out the course we should take himself. I chose to focus on the back-six because they are the backbone of any good Mourinho side. If they manage to establish confidence through good defending in the whole team and work out a way to play correctly the first two passes out of the back, things automatically improve. From that point forward, we have players to finish the job. But if we'll ever get to that point is still questionable under the current circumstances.
this doesnt seem to have been the case imo. To say that there's not a difference in motivation from one match to another from one team to another is ridiculous in my eyes
when we were closer we were playing better. When the gap opened we look less motivated. You'd swear this was astro physics.
How could we lose ground while playing better than we are currently playing? City were playing better again. It has been argued that they're the best ever premiership side. Simple enough again
You don't need a fluid style of play, you just need A style of play and implement it effectively.
Assuming it is implemented effectively, it will run smoothly and be fluid no? fluid doesn't mean it has to be attacking. Just has to run effortlessly and flow harmoniously. Whether it is more defensive/attacking is neither here nor there.
That's how I generally judge a team and a manager, but I prefer to use the word synergy in order to avoid misunderstandings. The semi final, Atletico-Chelsea is the perfect example of that, it was a defensive matchup but both teams were extremely cohesive and it was two great games.
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So I totally agree with everything you wrote, I actually think @JPRouve used a better word than flow although I know what you mean. Synergy, it’s what we lack, it’s fine to sit back and defend but when we go forward it just doesn’t look like it should, it should flow, people seem to be seen one guessing where and what they should be doing and look more confused. It sort of goes for when we are defending also.
I just wonder what Jose is waiting for, is it new defenders, a midfielder until he gets the team he wants. I do think he is try9ng to break players to his will instead of him seeing what is best for the team that he has.
Overall something is missing from the team mentally. It’s not so much they are bottlers or anything like that. It does honestly just look like they are either confused with what they are supposed to be doing or just aren’t coached.
I just wonder what Jose is waiting for, is it new defenders, a midfielder until he gets the team he wants. I do think he is try9ng to break players to his will instead of him seeing what is best for the team that he has.
Overall something is missing from the team mentally. It’s not so much they are bottlers or anything like that. It does honestly just look like they are either confused with what they are supposed to be doing or just aren’t coached.
I'm sorry but constantly bashing a manager with that kind of reputation is what screams of arrogance to me. These armchair managers who are quick to criticize every decision Mourinho makes. Put them in his position and let them implement their genius tactics. Let them try and create a cohesive unit out of this spineless bunch.
I'd rather trust one of the best managers around and give him time to build something rather than stare myself blind at what City are doing and demand something that's unnatainable. It's not like we aren't seeing progress under Mourinho either.
Get a fecking grip. We are Manchester United, not Bristol City. That is something that David Moyes would say.
Our history suggests, if anything we can aspire to and can actually out-do what City are currently achieving. We have been champions of Europe and FWIW I reckon this City side will fall short in Europe.
Not much to add but its been obvious since November that when teams press us and/or we play against good teams we are:
A. Overwhelmed in Midfield
B. Cant play out from the back
C. Hoof the ball ALOT
Not much good going to materialize until we fix these issues.
A. Overwhelmed in Midfield
B. Cant play out from the back
C. Hoof the ball ALOT
Not much good going to materialize until we fix these issues.
An excellent post, well written and well thought out.
Personally I think Mourinho has lost all his fight and passion. After his last job, getting fired by Chelsea and that whole affair/court case with the doctor something broke in him and he has never recovered. Unfortunately we have got the shell of the manager he once was and he is getting away with a lot of slack/crap due to the history of all his trophies. It is about time that he starts taking responsibility for the dross being played week in week out.
I think he should start with a major clear out at the end of the season, of all the deadwood that aren't pulling their weight, starting with himself because he is the manager and he is responsible for what happens on the field.
Looking at what is being dished up week in week out I do not see us winning any silverware and I will be very surprised if we end up finishing in the top 4. Liverpool and Tottenham both seem to have found their groove and if Conte and steady the ship at Chelsea we will finish 5th.
So many buzzwords with little meaning in this thread.
Very true, and to think we are 18 months further since the LvG days, when we were mocked as Hoofchester, playing boring side to side football at a snails pace and hardly getting a shot on goal in games, making poorer teams look good.
It's amusing to see people blame our defense for our dropped points, when, apart from a few games like the 4-0s, our attacking play is generally lackluster.
Martial-Rashford-Sanchez
-----Pogba---Pereira------
--------Herrera------------
Shaw-Matic-Lindelof-Valencia
----------DeGea-----------
would have as many points under Pep as we do and be playing much more exciting football (though less of a threat in the CL than our current side should be), and in reality it would be a stronger side as Pep would have bought a technically strong CM instead of Matic (think he'd have liked Herrera as a 6) and spent the Lukaku money elsewhere.
And most importantly, we'd play good football and clearly be a signing or two away from having a great team, like City were last year. And I don't know if you can say that about us now. Even if we do sign a top CM and a fullback this summer, it's hard to say how much better we'll actually be.
We'd be absolutely massacred with that central defence and Herrera protecting it. On top of constantly 'losing beautifully' like Bournemourth. We wouldnt even finish top 6! You Pep fans are delusionalThe reason we have conceded so few goals in the last 4 seasons is not the defense, but the best GK in the world - David de Gea. If not for him, I dare not imagine what could have been the state of the club right now.
I think you have answered your own question here. I think all this tactical debate about how to play is a bit overrated amongst fans and pundits. For me it is quite simple. What we are missing is not a different manager, or more talent in our squad. The missing piece of the puzzle is desire. I really think this is the major difference between us and City this year.
I think I've read that you have some coaching experience, so you must know how much desire can give you on the pitch. When you have the right mindset and the focus and passion you perform 20-30% extra. Tactics just don't give you that much in my opinion. I feel we are lacking the desire to take those extra sprints and run those extra miles in order to get the ball. Just look at our game against Newcastle. After they scored every player thought "Ohh feck this is not good" and you saw them sprinting and being more aggressive to get the ball and try and score. Why don't they do that earlier? City does. Mourinho didn't change anything in his tactics barely.
We need that rage and determination to go and smash every team from minute 1. I don't know if it is a lack of warrior mentality we need in the team or what it is. I don't know the players personally. I just can't seem to find in our team the likes of Schmeichel, scholes, Ronaldo and Keane who reminded their team mates about their responsibilities
I don't get the impression he's usually overworked, with a few exceptions like the Arsenal game. Normally he makes the saves you'd expect a very good GK to make. For most of last season he didn't have very much to do, slightly busier this season perhaps.
Our attacking is incredibly laboured, not enough players making runs or movements in advanced positions so we end up playing back too many times.
This exposes our second problem: lack of composed CBs on the ball. This means they just hoof it up the field and it comes right back at us again. That is the exact reason Smalling is not picked by Southgate but somehow here he is, stuck with us.
This exposes our second problem: lack of composed CBs on the ball. This means they just hoof it up the field and it comes right back at us again. That is the exact reason Smalling is not picked by Southgate but somehow here he is, stuck with us.