A cohesive modern structure/fluid style of play needs to come first before United can win big

[Raees]

Mourinho does have a vision,but he still doesn't have the players who can implement his vision.Yes,despite spending 300 million,we are still nowhere close to being the real deal.I think a lot of folks on here have probably forgotten how shambolic we were under LVG and Moyes,both on and off the field(in the transfer market).

When Mourinho took over he inherited a hopelessly unbalanced squad,lacking in quality,strength and depth.He has slowly rebuilt the squad and he has got us to a place where we feel dissapointed despite being 2nd in the league.We won 2 trophies last year,will/could win another trophy this year....We are on course to qualify for the CL 2 times in a row,we are on course to finish in the top 3 for the first time since 2013.If this isn't progress,what is?

Jose needs 4 more players(for the starting 11) to really take us to the next level.We need a top class ball playing CB,someone who can comfortably pass the ball/carry the ball forward in the big games.We need a quality LB,plus we need 2 Central midfielders(1 DM plus 1 box to box 8).

If we finish 2nd and win the FA cup,that's discernible,definitive progress.We have to back Jose this summer,we have to help him sort out the midfield and the defence...We have no other choice and he definitely deserves to be given another season at the very least....

What is exactly his vision apart from just splashing lots of money at any position which to his mind seems to be underperforming? because I don't actually see an overarching vision to how to actually approach games, other than the odd big game where we seem to have a tactic of sitting deep, soaking pressure and then making it up as we go along in attack (which worked a treat against blunt instruments like Liverpool and Arsenal) but would lead to annihilation against seriously top sides like a Barca.

Generally whenever we are in a game where we slightly have to open up and go for it, due to us being the bigger team.. we look very unstable in large patches of the game, have to slugfest our way out of it, rely on abit of luck and then rely on our superior individual quality to make that telling bit of difference and get us the win. Now it isn't a particularly awful strategy, as long as you buy well (which in fairness Jose has been better than his predecessors) but it leads to very inconsistent performances where we veer from destruction to joy several times during any given game. It has been incredibly rare to see us completely dominate an entire game of football and even when we're in cruise control, like we were against Liverpool.. the manager's approach led to us almost drawing that game.

You keep talking about progress and yes there has been progress, but at what cost? if Jose stays, we will probably lose Pogba and Martial (now the former might not be missed) but what does it say about us as a place where flair players can go nurture their talent? who will want to come here and risk being destroyed by Mourinho should he not have results go his way and then turn on his flair players first - which he always does in times of crisis.

Plus we are up against rivals who are severely hamstrung. Liverpool lost their star player in Coutinho, their midfield now looks bang average without him. Spurs are building a new stadium and simply do not have the same resources we do when it comes to buying players. Arsenal have Wenger and Conte has been fighting a board battle all season, and clearly isn't able to buy and sell as freely as Jose can here (who moans about his allowance when he is second only to Pep in this respect). So in the context of all that, just how meaningful in this progress?

Final point, do you really think giving Jose yet another shitload of cash is actually going to win us the League? think about it. Pep will also be given funds yet again to strengthen, and with his superior brand of football.. I can't see how we are going to overcome them, if both of us are signing big players but their players are trained better, and they play a more cohesive and more effective brand of football. To make it all worse, we'll be bored shitless as we grind our way to second again... FWIW the way recent body language is going, we might not even be consistent in keep getting second, as players just might stop trying altogether eventually like they did in the Sevilla game.

Give Jose one more year? I wish it was that simple. Giving him one more year based on results.. I don't mind, but his man-management and performances, and the risk of losing many star players due to potential fall outs this summer and beyond? he's a grenade waiting to go off and I think he's a big risk beyond this season.

 

[Adisa]

I think it's all he knows really. Just like every top manager, there is a core methodology about them. They build their success around it and along the way, there are many times when they are criticized to a level that it truly takes an extremely strong personality and high level of stubbornness to get through it. This obviously means that not only are they always skeptical and dismissive of criticism to what they would consider inferior footballing minds and rightfully so, but also incapable of doing anything else. To be as good as Mourinho is at what he does, it requires total commitment to it. He cannot just one day change approaches radically because that would also take years of commitment, honing and improving.

In Mourinho's case, this approach was not low percentage. Throughout the '00s, most teams played with a similar mindset. The big games were cagey affairs where you feel your opponent, make sure you don't concede that all important first goal and capitalize on mistakes to get your noses up front. We at United had to discover that the hard way many times in Europe and domestically against his very own Chelsea. Since everyone approached the game that way from Benitez's Liverpool, the Italian sides and later on our very own club especially in Queiroz's time, Mourinho was a true master mind and stood out from the rest since he could read the game better than anyone else. His skill set of being able to nullify opponents' strengths and ensuring a warrior like mentality with his teams through game and man management, and working with players who were more recipient to that ideology like Essien, Lampard, Terry, Drogba, Zanetti, Cambiasso, Motta, Milito and few others, meant he had the edge over most. He was still considered boring by English football standards where the norm was taking risks and playing a less tactical game. But he was not viewed as the anti football he is today because his methods were seen as no more than bringing organisation and attention to tactical detail to a country that likes it football a bit more chaotic.

What happened to him afterwards however is that Barcelona and Pep came along. They won by abandoning the previous agreed upon wisdom and not only that, everybody treated them as the ultimate team to aspire to. Everyone started to copy them, maybe not exactly in terms of tactics but definitely in terms of approach in the sense that "we will look to be pro active and go for goals instead of waiting and reacting to events". Klopp's Dortmund and Heynckes' Bayern are stand out examples in that sense. This has made Mourinho no longer the new innovator, but the champion of an ideology that is not only not as efficient, but viewed with less love and adulation. This is where according to some journalist and people familiar with him, he went even further in his stubborn mode where now he felt he needed to not only win, but win by proving all these new "Einsteins" are nothing more than "poets". Add to that Barcelona rejecting him and knowing what they represent in world football, and it makes perfect sense that he felt almost on duty to be their exact opposite.

You still see this obsession quite regularly. He will always bring up how he is not the type of manager who tells players that player A should pass to B and B to C etc ... like he did last Saturday. He will talk about controlling without the ball. When Chelsea won the league he used the celebration party to talk about how some other teams like us and Arsenal were more interested in possession stats. Something comes up that hints to his disdain for this school of thought on a regular basis. The man is an absolutely fascinating character, maybe the most fascinating character in football in recent memory.

Excellent post and why imo, we are pretty much fecked.
I don't think there's a modicum of doubt that he got it wrong on Tuesday.

 

[Adisa]

A manager who's entire ethos is about stopping the opponent first and foremost will never implement a "modern cohesive style".
It's simply not possible because different teams pose different challenges and he has no principles on how his team should play.
I think his only attacking philosophy is that he will never play the Cruyff school of the positional/pressing game.
There's a fantasy on this forum that Mourinho will be more adventurous with more quality players. I think it's a fantasy.
He plays the percentages, it will never change. The only thing better players will help him achieve is make more of those percentage count.
There's no difference between how he approached the Sevilla and Liverpool games and how he will approach the City game.
His priority will be to ensure his side don't make any mistakes and he will sacrifice anything to achieve that, even attacking cohesion.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Pep's allegedly superior brand of football has no relevance what so ever to us. Our current system can work at an optimum nor consistent level because we have systemic and personnel problems.

Firstly, In midfield we are so imbalanced in personnel that our only forward creative passers are Pogba and the retiring Carrick. Mourinho can't be blamed for it because he is only responsible for recruiting 2 of the members of that department. Of which the defensive one was essential to replacing what we had begun to lose defensively as Carrick reached retirement age.

As a result we also lack chemistry in midfield because of as a result of the imbalance, we haven't found a consistent formation to bring out the best of our midfield parts. To attempt at all to claim Mourinho doesn't deserve at least the opportunity to rectify that with spending that is being very disingenuous. For it isn't he who spent us into that imbalance.


Secondly, we have a problem down the right attacking flank. We have no natural right sided player, yet again another thing that is no fault of Mourinho. Which is further compounded by the fact we have 3 emerging young talents (Rashford, Martial, Lingard) who tend to prefer the left or middle, yet are all too good to be simply sitting on the bench collecting dust awaiting game time. This has tended to put the skids on us recruiting a natural right sided talent since its Mourinho's responsibility that all those 3 lads get game time.

To make matters worse, were forced to act and recruit Alexis, who was not only a world class player readily available in mid season, but above all a player we didn't want inflating Manchester City's weapons if we harbour any hopes of catching up to them in the future

Given a pre season, I expect Mourinho ti be able to both fully integrate Alexis to our attack and to get one of Rashford, Lingard or Martial to make the right flank their own position.

Our current problems are not terminal nor can they not be solved by our current manager. We also need to stop obsessing over what Pep and Manchester City or even Liverpool are doing. We wont get any where merely reacting to others. We should trust in building our own way in our own time frame. We also need to stop lying to ourselves that we are making no progress.

 

[Adisa]

Who's obsessing over what others are doing. Our football is shit by any standards.
Also balls to Mourinho using those ta tactics against a shite Sevilla side because we are imbalanced.
He used those tactics cause that's who he is.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Not going to repeat the comments I made in the Busby mantra thread, but surely unless we start playing good football, any dreams there are of big trophies are very unrealistic? no one is saying we need to be as extreme as say City in the beauty of our football but at the same time, you can't have as many unstructured, chaotic random performances like we have and expect to be rivalling the best clubs in the world.

No matter how much money you throw at the situation, until you have a proper vision for how to play the game, for how you want those 11 players on the pitch (as well as the squad, academy) to play, they're going to go out on the pitch and play like strangers..

First thing you have to look at is, well what is the most successful modern formation at the moment, which formation is the one which most teams use.. and it still tends to be a 4-3-3, but even if you say chose a diamond or a 3-5-2, the bottom line is that there seems to be a huge emphasis placed by the top sides in controlling the midfield battle and being proactive on the ball, playing out from the back and lots of nimble possession play and pressing pretty high. That seems to be a common theme amongst the top sides, so why are we not following this formula to success.. why are we playing like the English national team from the 00's, when the rest of the major clubs seem to have taken Barca/Bayern/Dortmund template from 06-14 and added their own twists to it.

We are playing football that is tactically more prehistoric than anything we played in 2008. We look out-dated. Simple eye-test tells you, we don't play good football.. we make bad decisions on the ball constantly, we kick it long, our build play is too slow and laboured, we have a big lump up front when the likes of Barca, Napoli, City have more nimble strikers and even sides like PSG/Spurs have very multi-dimensional target men up top, mobile number 9's who can drift across the pitch.

What bemuses me, is people saying well we have Jose.. he's a winner! well, Jose at his best had a proper system and usually was ace at picking players who fitted that system but as he has aged.. the system remains in his head, but his ability to execute it and his choice of players for that system is not as sharp as it used to be. So we are suffering a double-whammy, slightly out-dated tactical system but it is being implemented really badly and it shows on the pitch. We have more bad performances than we do good.. we are regularly outdone tactically and it is only the superior individual quality we have at our disposal and the fact other teams have their own defensive deficiencies that we are second in the league. But it is very much a false position because playing wise, to the naked eye we look very far from a title winning side or a great challenging side.

Final bone of contention is, without playing well to the naked eye.. regardless of whether you prefer a more counter-attacking style (say Leicester from a few years back) or a more proactive style, if you can see that whatever it is, it isn't clicking fluidly and the team constantly looks out of sorts. Surely that is an issue to worry about, because no side wins major titles by being disjointed? getting a cohesive side out on the pitch week in week out needs to be the first step and United have totally failed carry out their duty in this regard. It has been years since we have seen United, regularly play an identifiable and outstanding brand of football. Until that happens, we have no big major success in our near future.

Agree with this as far as the first team is concerned.

Not sure we need to inculcate a certain style of play across the whole club - that sounds a bit idealistic to be honest. But the first team definitely needs to have a clear style of play.

Whether we decide to go with a pressing game, a counter-attacking game or a tiki taka game, the fans will get behind it as long as we've got a tangible identity and we're working towards something.

 

[sunama]

Who's obsessing over what others are doing. Our football is shit by any standards.

If we were as shit as you suggest, we wouldn't be 2nd in the league.
You are over exaggerating.

 

[Adisa]

If we were as shit as you suggest, we wouldn't be 2nd in the league.
You are over exaggerating.

I'm not discussing results.
I did not say we are a shit team.
Im saying our football, most of the time is not fun to watch.

 

[Catt]

A manager who's entire ethos is about stopping the opponent first and foremost will never implement a "modern cohesive style".
It's simply not possible because different teams pose different challenges and he has no principles on how his team should play.
I think his only attacking philosophy is that he will never play the Cruyff school of the positional/pressing game.
There's a fantasy on this forum that Mourinho will be more adventurous with more quality players. I think it's a fantasy.
He plays the percentages, it will never change. The only thing better players will help him achieve is make more of those percentage count.
There's no difference between how he approached the Sevilla and Liverpool games and how he will approach the City game.
His priority will be to ensure his side don't make any mistakes and he will sacrifice anything to achieve that, even attacking cohesion.

Sigh... This is pretty much what I think and not the way forward for the club. We will never see a proactiv approach under Mou.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

What is exactly his vision apart from just splashing lots of money at any position which to his mind seems to be underperforming? because I don't actually see an overarching vision to how to actually approach games, other than the odd big game where we seem to have a tactic of sitting deep, soaking pressure and then making it up as we go along in attack (which worked a treat against blunt instruments like Liverpool and Arsenal) but would lead to annihilation against seriously top sides like a Barca.

Generally whenever we are in a game where we slightly have to open up and go for it, due to us being the bigger team.. we look very unstable in large patches of the game, have to slugfest our way out of it, rely on abit of luck and then rely on our superior individual quality to make that telling bit of difference and get us the win. Now it isn't a particularly awful strategy, as long as you buy well (which in fairness Jose has been better than his predecessors) but it leads to very inconsistent performances where we veer from destruction to joy several times during any given game. It has been incredibly rare to see us completely dominate an entire game of football and even when we're in cruise control, like we were against Liverpool.. the manager's approach led to us almost drawing that game.

You keep talking about progress and yes there has been progress, but at what cost? if Jose stays, we will probably lose Pogba and Martial (now the former might not be missed) but what does it say about us as a place where flair players can go nurture their talent? who will want to come here and risk being destroyed by Mourinho should he not have results go his way and then turn on his flair players first - which he always does in times of crisis.

Plus we are up against rivals who are severely hamstrung. Liverpool lost their star player in Coutinho, their midfield now looks bang average without him. Spurs are building a new stadium and simply do not have the same resources we do when it comes to buying players. Arsenal have Wenger and Conte has been fighting a board battle all season, and clearly isn't able to buy and sell as freely as Jose can here (who moans about his allowance when he is second only to Pep in this respect). So in the context of all that, just how meaningful in this progress?

Final point, do you really think giving Jose yet another shitload of cash is actually going to win us the League? think about it. Pep will also be given funds yet again to strengthen, and with his superior brand of football.. I can't see how we are going to overcome them, if both of us are signing big players but their players are trained better, and they play a more cohesive and more effective brand of football. To make it all worse, we'll be bored shitless as we grind our way to second again... FWIW the way recent body language is going, we might not even be consistent in keep getting second, as players just might stop trying altogether eventually like they did in the Sevilla game.

Give Jose one more year? I wish it was that simple. Giving him one more year based on results.. I don't mind, but his man-management and performances, and the risk of losing many star players due to potential fall outs this summer and beyond? he's a grenade waiting to go off and I think he's a big risk beyond this season.

There isn't an overarching vision,Jose wants us to be flexible in our tactical approach/formation.So we will set up in a 4-3-3 to counter attack in certain games,in others we will play 4-2-3-1 where we concede possession and control for greater attacking impetus in the final third.Alexis and Pogba are both out of form right now so Jose needs to get them back to their best again.

Firstly let me make this clear,I don't agree with everything that he's doing right now,obviously...But his negative approach against the top 6 teams is producing results,this season only Man City have picked up more points against the top 6.Last season we had the worst record in head to head games against the top 6,so we have improved substantially this season.

Secondly,Alexis Sanchez chose Jose over Pep less than 2 months ago,so there is absolutely no evidence of the top attacking players not wanting to play for Mourinho.But I completely agree with your point about us lacking balance,and why do we look so unbalanced in most games?Why do we never dominate games from start to finish?Because of -a)The Pogba conundrum,and I don't completely blame Jose for the problems that he's facing right now.He needs to learn how to play in a midfield 2,he needs to improve his spatial/tactical awareness.b)Not having enough strength in depth in midfield,because of our lack of quality we aren't really able to play an effective 4-3-3.So like I said earlier,we need to sign two quality midfielders in the summer.

Finally,if not Jose,then who??Please look across the top leagues in Europe,how many managers have the stature and the track record to manage United(obviously out of the managers who are available)??Luis Enrique or Zidane?Would be incredibly risky to take a punt on them.Simeone?His style and philosophy can best be described as "Mourinho on steroids"!!Tuchel?On his way to Bayern.Ancelotti?Bayern were struggling in the bundesliga under him!Pochettino??Could be a future Man United manager,but he has to do a lot more to be ready for this job....

So there is no alternative to Jose right now and it would be ludicrous to sack him if he finishes 2nd and wins the FA Cup.We finished 6th with 69 points last season,we are well on course to getting over 80 points this season,how can this not be progress?If we win the FA Cup,that would be 3 trophies in 2 years(Klopp and Pochettino have won nothing so far),how can this not be progress??It would be breathtakingly irresponsible to sack Jose,and frankly there is absolutely no way in hell that he will be replaced this summer....

 

[Jazz]

I don't mind Jose wanting the players to learn to play more than one formation. The more flexible you are the better.

However, in order to make anything work effectively, you need to have the tools. You cannot perform in anyway if there isn't a cohesive structure in place, and in my eyes we don't seem to have one.

Jose needs to first shake up his backroom team and come out of his comfort zone and accept that we need to have a modern structure. Accepting this doesn't mean that you have to play Pep football, in fact, he needs to forget Pep exists and just focus on us. It's not much to ask from a very well paid manager to provide some cohesion to our play. This is the bare minimum, especially with the resources he has available to him.


He'll also need to stop his habit of playing or relying on his 'favourites' (whether they're good or bad), and choose players on merit only. For eg. Shaw was doing well enough and getting some chemistry with his team mates, yet as soon as Young comes back he drops him. Fellaini comes back and McTominay gets dropped. You just can't do things like that. The players won't trust you, and if they don't trust you, they sure as hell aren't going to run through 'brick walls' for him.

In short, we won't see a cohesive modern structure with Jose if he doesn't lose these bad habits.

Sadly, I think his narcissism is so extreme that it would take a miracle for him to change. If no such miracle occurs then we will have to wait for another manager to implement it.

 

[Harry190]

So... basically the United Way eh.

 

[edcunited1878]

I'm trying to relate your post with City's evolution from last season to this season. So would you say they were taking care of quality and consistency last season and with that sorted out have now embraced a style of play?

And if so, where would you say we are currently?

Why only City though? We saw how different their tactics were compared to other teams with the fullbacks higher up the pitch and more inside towards the channel with Fernandinho split between two central defenders, but at a level ahead of them. Sane's improved, as has Sterling, as had Jesus, etc. Silva and KDB have a much better understanding of how to play together and where on the pitch. But to me, City this year has Pep's mindset and off the ball movement/understanding (offensively and defensively) as his peak Barca teams. Then they bought their preferred fullbacks, GK (I think this is Ederson's first full year), CB cover, etc.

Chelsea have an effective system playing 3 at the back, which saw them win the league last year, but poor signings/poor form from players they bought (quality overall has become worse) has been detrimental. Liverpool have had the same system, but their quality has improve via Salah and potentially VVD, but they are still being held back by Karius/Ming. Spurs are similar in everything they do and in quality, but Alli has had a down season, but it has been buoyed by Son.

And to me, United need 4 above average players to challenge for a starting XI or to take it out right in order to really compete in the PL and CL. Then after that, comes the understanding of your teammates and styles of play under Jose.

United have had too much player turnover each of the past two years (not including pre-Jose) and will continue to do so until Young, Valencia, Felliani (to an extent Zlatan and Carrick) are replaced because they still play prominent roles in the team, whether you agree with it or not. There's no settled XI yet. Rooney -> Zlatan -> Lukaku | Central midfield is still a revolving door, but there's more quality now than in past years | right midfield = nothing consistent. Sanchez has been extremely underwhelming and a passenger too many times.

 

[Theonas]

I feel like this is true for the old guard, but the younger up and comers (most of whom have experience strictly as coaches) don't feel this way at all. Pep and Klopp most prominently have adamantly said that they see themselves as coaches, not managers. Pep even went so far as to say he didn't have any interest in most of the responsibilities that came with the role of "manager."

It's why I'm hesitant to bin Jose unless they're ready to move on to a more modern organizational structure. I don't think there are any readily available candidates who'd be willing to act as a manager and do a better job at it.

Good point. I agree completely which is why I never understand when people give credit or blame the likes of Klopp or Pep for the signings their club make. Those two among many others are simply not involved in transfer activity beyond telling their clubs the profile of players they need and maybe giving the green light to finalize the transfer. In England obviously this is difficult to accept as an essential part of the job of the boss is to conduct transfers. Managers have always been judged on their ability to motivate, man management, picking the right 11 and transfer dealings. I disagree however that it is necessarily an old vs new mindset. For example, I don't think LvG is as involved in that department either whereas someone like Conte seems to be very confident in his ability to conduct his transfers.

Your last point is one of the main reasons I am reluctant to call for Mourinho's head. I would definitely not miss him if he left but as you say, it is almost impossible to think of a good coach that has any experience with our setup. It puts a question mark in front of any name which is why as long we don't change that, it's difficult to see any obvious improvement.

 

[Sultan]

You seem to forget the missing piece here.....which is desire.

Compare when Man City lose the ball and what the entire players do to recover the ball quickly to ours?

That to me tops the array of talents we have. It’s the reason a team like Bristol FC can knock the almighty United out of a cup competition.

The ‘99 TREBLE team wasn’t necessary the best XI in Europe as at that time but they had desire. There was no stand out player, everyone worked together in unison.

I think that is what the current squad is lacking. I don’t know how to reach desire. I don’t necessarily think Jose’s approach was terrible last night, the players just didn’t do enough to carry the team past the forward line.

SAF/Queiroz deployed the same approach against Barcelona in 2007/8. The first leg was goalless and the 2nd leg was a cagey affair where the only goal came through a mistake in the Barca midfield. Scholes scored and we defended with 10 men for the rest of the game.

You do make very valid points regarding desire. The hard work to win the ball back is practically non-existent or not part of the instructions given by the coaches. Their likely instruction is to get the team back into shape. Obviously, different coaches differ in their methods.

 

[Theonas]

Great post. But a little depressing as I find that particular ideology as dull as dishwater. Sigh.

I am in total agreement with you there. In fact I find it worse than dull. I can tell myself dull is something about aesthetics and it would be unfair to criticize someone because of something so subjective, something that so many others happen to enjoy or at least not mind. I find it however directly harmful to the brand, and brand is as important as anything when it comes to any corporation, let alone a football club. This is why for me even winning the PL won't change that just like Inter, Chelsea, Leicester, Atlético Madrid and maybe even Juventus have won big things as of late but no one is ever going to look at them the same way they do the true elite of European football which is the only place I think we should belong to, not out of entitlement, but size and resources.

 

[JPRouve]

I am in total agreement with you there. In fact I find it worse than dull. I can tell myself dull is something about aesthetics and it would be unfair to criticize someone because of something so subjective, something that so many others happen to enjoy or at least not mind. I find it however directly harmful to the brand, and brand is as important as anything when it comes to any corporation, let alone a football club. This is why for me even winning the PL won't change that just like Inter, Chelsea, Leicester, Atlético Madrid and maybe even Juventus have won big things as of late but no one is ever going to look at them the same way they do the true elite of European football which is the only place I think we should belong to, not out of entitlement, but size and resources.

It kind of make your point but Inter under Mourinho were a very good team to watch, most of the time they weren't dull or negative but a handful of CL games completely destroyed their image.

 

[Theonas]

It kind of make your point but Inter under Mourinho were a very good team to watch, most of the time they weren't dull or negative but a handful of CL games completely destroyed their image.

Exactly which is my point. Image is paramount for a club like us because we have no excuse. The same it is for Real and Barcelona. The idea that it's just about entertaining football misses the point completely. Real broke the goal scoring record in their country playing some breath taking football at times, yet the fans weren't satisfied and they hated the under dog role purely because of how they approached the big games. Big clubs have a gigantic ego and so they should. Playing reactive football may win you league titles and even trebles but it will never satisfy that ego.

 

[Jazz]

Exactly which is my point. Image is paramount for a club like us because we have no excuse. The same it is for Real and Barcelona. The idea that it's just about entertaining football misses the point completely. Real broke the goal scoring record in their country playing some breath taking football at times, yet the fans weren't satisfied and they hated the under dog role purely because of how they approached the big games. Big clubs have a gigantic ego and so they should. Playing reactive football may win you league titles and even trebles but it will never satisfy that ego.

So in other words, Jose isn't actually suited to a 'big' club. His 'motivation' works best with so called underdogs. If he doesn't get a grip we're fecked

 

[JPRouve]

Exactly which is my point. Image is paramount for a club like us because we have no excuse. The same it is for Real and Barcelona. The idea that it's just about entertaining football misses the point completely. Real broke the goal scoring record in their country playing some breath taking football at times, yet the fans weren't satisfied and they hated the under dog role purely because of how they approached the big games. Big clubs have a gigantic ego and so they should. Playing reactive football may win you league titles and even trebles but it will never satisfy that ego.

And it's not reliable, for all the talks about Mourinho's success, in the last 8 years he has won relatively little when you consider the fact that he has always been at the head of one of the bigger spender in wage and transfer fees. Mourinho said it perfectly during his first press conference, ideally you want to score as much as possible and concede as little as possible, the problem is that he has barely tried to do that in the last eight years, the two times he did it his team won the league and at Chelsea he stopped around January or February, if i'm not wrong.

 

[Raebareliwale]

So what? Vity have had every window since 2012 and every manager implementing a playing philosophy geared to what Pep is perfecting now. That's 6 darn years. Yet just because we are spending big Mourinho should just get us their in 4. Of which 2 were January windows? Come on....



It isn't impossible to say. Pochetino for all the stability he has brought to and had at Spurs could not even beat a mere Leiceister to a league title. With a far better balanced and cohesive United than the current United. No chance in hell he'd be doing any where near as good as Mourinho currently is.

As for Pep, even though he took over a team that for 6 seasons had been geared towards him taking over, has needed 2 summers to get his team to this current level. Doing a massive recruitment and off loafing drive. Yet even in January he has targeted more. So how does anyone seriously think with the cash constraints we've placed on ourselves in the market as compared to City, he'd have had us anywhere nears as fluid as City under him have been, whilst being unable to offload and recruit talent enmass?

Even Pool are more fluid than us because Klopp was a straight up upgrade on Rodgers tactically who was there for 2-3 years implementing a similar style. Manchester United and indeed Mourinho himself are being judged on very dishonest and disingenuous scales. All these complaints would make sense of we reached January next season still clunky and inconsistently fluid. Right now they are just disingenuous whinging based on very misguided sentiment and Pep fanboism. Its plain annoying. Yet am not even amongst those who wanted to hire Mourinho as a reaction to City netting Pep.

I think you have a wrong perception that city were building the squad from 6 years or so to suit PEP.

If that was the case, we would have bought a sweeper keeper long time ago but we stayed with Joe Hart. We also would have upgraded our fullbacks years ago as PEP needs pacy fullbacks.

Any team would want players like DeBruyne, Sterling, FErnandinhio,Otamendi etc.

The reality is that PEP identified the issues and fixed them. The current City team is great because of PEP and PEP alone.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

http://kwese.espn.com/football/club...cking-not-the-answer-despite-sevilla-shambles

 

[liamp]

http://kwese.espn.com/football/club...cking-not-the-answer-despite-sevilla-shambles

Honestly, this is complete faff. I don't have anything against Mitten but this is definitely not his best work.

 

[JPRouve]

http://kwese.espn.com/football/club...cking-not-the-answer-despite-sevilla-shambles

Yesterday, I realized that I don't understand football and its mentality. In Rugby or the NFL head coaches or managers are judged on their ability to coach and manage, to make the better use of what they have and if they can't they are logically deemed as not good enough. In football there is always a terrible excuse to keep or hire the same failing coaches, it's weird. I don't know if Mourinho is failing and I don't mind keeping him but the excuses are in my opinion terrible.

 

[liamp]

Yesterday, I realized that I don't understand football and its mentality. In Rugby or the NFL head coaches or managers are judged on their ability to coach and manage, to make the better use of what they have and if they can't they are logically deemed as not good enough. In football there is always a terrible excuse to keep or hire the same failing coaches, it's weird. I don't know if Mourinho is failing and I don't mind keeping him but the excuses are in my opinion terrible.

Jason Garrett though

I agree...the US sports are far more cutthroat, and most of them have actual wage caps that promote parity in their leagues. The idea of spending hundreds of millions more than 95% of your competitors over a 2-5 year period and not even sniffing a title would cause mass hysteria over here. The part that's really different for me is when people say not to focus on City's successes. The concept of not benchmarking your club compared to your main rival and being content with whatever incremental gains you've made despite how far you've fallen behind does my head in.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I think you have a wrong perception that city were building the squad from 6 years or so to suit PEP.
If that was the case, we would have bought a sweeper keeper long time ago but we stayed with Joe Hart. We also would have upgraded our fullbacks years ago as PEP needs pacy fullbacks.

That is where I believe you are mistaken. Planning for Pep's arrival didn't mean making every single first team purchase with him in mind since other managers had the job. But it meant bringing in a director of football and other back room people to implement with a 5 year plan to put the club in a position to be compatible with Guardiola.

It was deliberate that City from Mancini onward were implementing an attacking, possession based style of football, with central playmakers, reliant on over lapping wingers and width. Mancini and his successors may not have required a sweeper keeper, but the required the type of players who are Guardiola staples. Flying fullbacks like Zabaleta and Kolarov. Playmakers like Silva and Yaya Toure and holding players like Fernandinho. Wide players like Sterling and those before him. Man City were making deliberate purchases with the aim to build a style that would suit Guardiola. Even Vieira managing the youth ranks I believe was implementing it, whilst the owners heavily invested in youth.

As regards your fullbacks, the season before Guardiola arrived, they were still the best in the league. His arrival just happened to coincide with the time it was ripe to replace them. Not of some over sight by the board or the DOF.


Furthermore, as much as any team would want players like DeBruyne, Sterling, Fernandinho,Otamendi etc. They were all purchased under a harmonized plan. None of the purchases were made with out the long term goal being deviated from

...... The current City team is great because of PEP and PEP alone.

Which isn't true at all. He deserves credit but certain isnt the sole reason. All Pep has done is replace the aged parts of your existing squad in order to implement his footballing vision:
i. He already found a club hat has been marching in one direction for 5 years.

ii. He hasn't introduced a style of play that was a fundamental change of direction and playing philosophy. He has simply brought a slight upgrade of it.
iii. He didn't find a team full of players that had never played to their current levels before.

What Pep has given this City team is a relentless competitive intensity that has did not exist under previous managers, and a total belief in themselves and their style of play which has in turn made the team brilliant. Because for the first time since they last won the title City have been firing on all cylinders 24/7.

He hasn't had to do any where near as much as he had to do to, for example, restore Barca to the top like he did during his first job. City didn't have that many issues to fix and being the top manager that he is, he sorted the few and is now marching towards perfection.

He certainly did not have to clean up anything as chaotic as what Mourinho found at OT. Which has been two managers with opposing philosophies and transfer visions, with playing styles almost entirely opposed to his, with a squad unbalanced as a result of the changes in direction.

 

[dannofdawn]

Jose needs to seriously evaluate his plan for winning trophies because whatever he had plan doesn't look to be working. We're an improvement over last season, but I don't see where this is going. We brought in quality players for positions that needed improvement, and that gave us better results in the league, but the team is not working well as a team at all. We might be able to grind out results better than last season thanks to the quality our players have, but we can't rely on that to give us consistent performances and results in multiple competitions over a whole season. I'm not saying a mere 2 years is enough to rebuild a team and that Jose should have been expected to win us the league this season because that's a bit unrealistic and unreasonable in my opinion. However, we don't look to be playing under a system that works with the team, nor does it bring results.

Pep's way of doing things isn't the only way to winning trophies, so it's not like had Jose play "positive football" against Sevilla, we would have been guaranteed to progress. The issue is the lack of vision for the players. When you're playing in a team sport, the team needs to know what they need to do in order to win, that's what gives cohesion. Our squad looks to have great relationships among themselves, so it's not like they couldn't play well together, the issue is when they are playing, they don't seem to know what to do. Against Liverpool and Arsenal, the team played with a plan and they executed it well. They never looked like they were lost, and they managed to play good games of football. But against Sevilla, its like they weren't brief of a plan at all, except "play safe". And they don't even look like they were told HOW to "play safe". The team looked shambolic from many aspects. And that's what my point is.

Why, and how on earth was that performance possible? What happened? We went into that game on a high from beating Liverpool, the morale should be high. Yet the performance didn't reflect that at all. Every player that day tried. I can see their effort, they never gave up. But they were lost. They don't know how to win, how to play, how to coordinate, how to play as a team. Is it because Jose wanted them to play safe? What are the reasons for such an embarrassing performance? Jose better figures it out, or next season we won't be winning anything important again, not even with even more money invested in the team.

 

[JPRouve]

Jason Garrett though

I agree...the US sports are far more cutthroat, and most of them have actual wage caps that promote parity in their leagues. The idea of spending hundreds of millions more than 95% of your competitors over a 2-5 year period and not even sniffing a title would cause mass hysteria over here. The part that's really different for me is when people say not to focus on City's successes. The concept of not benchmarking your club compared to your main rival and being content with whatever incremental gains you've made despite how far you've fallen behind does my head in.

But it's the taboo that I find unsettling, not a lot of people will argue if you say that McCarthy and Garrett have failed and deserve to be sacked, in football people pretend until the last second and sometimes try to stretch it a bit.

 

[liamp]

But it's the taboo that I find unsettling, not a lot of people will argue if you say that McCarthy and Garrett have failed and deserve to be sacked, in football people pretend until the last second and sometimes try to stretch it a bit.

I say this having moved from England to the US as a teen, but I think it's a cultural thing.

 

[Adisa]

Yesterday, I realized that I don't understand football and its mentality. In Rugby or the NFL head coaches or managers are judged on their ability to coach and manage, to make the better use of what they have and if they can't they are logically deemed as not good enough. In football there is always a terrible excuse to keep or hire the same failing coaches, it's weird. I don't know if Mourinho is failing and I don't mind keeping him but the excuses are in my opinion terrible.

It's doing my head in.
Every discussion about how we can improve descends into who we can buy.
Not enough people are admitting he needs to get more out of what he has.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Yesterday, I realized that I don't understand football and its mentality. In Rugby or the NFL head coaches or managers are judged on their ability to coach and manage, to make the better use of what they have and if they can't they are logically deemed as not good enough. In football there is always a terrible excuse to keep or hire the same failing coaches, it's weird. I don't know if Mourinho is failing and I don't mind keeping him but the excuses are in my opinion terrible.

I think the difference also with American sport is that its the front office that recruits a team and then recruits a coach to harness the talent into a team. Thus the only brief for the coach is performing. Hence if he does it with what he is got, he is trusted with time and the front office will consult him on how to recruit to keep performing.

In European football, especially in England the coach tends to be in charge of both. Thus if you keep changing coach, you burden yourself with players recruited for opposing reasons, philosophies and long term plans. That is why if a boss is results wise improving things like Mourinho is doing
He is bound to be given time to marry the results to the root philosophy of the club.

I feel though that more British teams are going to move to the front office - coach model that is actually very common in continental Europe.

 

[Theonas]

So in other words, Jose isn't actually suited to a 'big' club. His 'motivation' works best with so called underdogs. If he doesn't get a grip we're fecked

I don't think that's controversial at all. He and Guardiola have a very similar CV in terms of trophies. I might even put Mourinho ahead on the basis of how varied his trophies have been won across different countries. Yet how come one had the pick of Europe's elite for about 8 years straight now and the other did not? Guardiola had Abramovic begging him to come, City planning their entire long term strategy around him, Barcelona wanting him back, there were even rumors about Real being interested. Not to mention that Bayern never sacked him. Compare that to Mourinho and it is nowhere near the desperate pursuit. We looked past him, Real sacked him, Chelsea took him back after they missed out on Pep only to sack him again, Barcelona rejected him in 2008 and never showed interest again, same as Bayern and City. You have to ask why? How can two managers with similar trophy hauls, in the case of Mourinho, one that is achieved across more testing and challenging circumstances, be so different in terms of how desperately wanted they are? Personality cannot explain such difference, especially since I don't buy into the notion that Pep is some low maintenance employee. In fact I think he is even more demanding and more picky with the structure and personnel of his clubs.

 

[Amira]

Why only City though? We saw how different their tactics were compared to other teams with the fullbacks higher up the pitch and more inside towards the channel with Fernandinho split between two central defenders, but at a level ahead of them. Sane's improved, as has Sterling, as had Jesus, etc. Silva and KDB have a much better understanding of how to play together and where on the pitch. But to me, City this year has Pep's mindset and off the ball movement/understanding (offensively and defensively) as his peak Barca teams. Then they bought their preferred fullbacks, GK (I think this is Ederson's first full year), CB cover, etc.

Chelsea have an effective system playing 3 at the back, which saw them win the league last year, but poor signings/poor form from players they bought (quality overall has become worse) has been detrimental. Liverpool have had the same system, but their quality has improve via Salah and potentially VVD, but they are still being held back by Karius/Ming. Spurs are similar in everything they do and in quality, but Alli has had a down season, but it has been buoyed by Son.

And to me, United need 4 above average players to challenge for a starting XI or to take it out right in order to really compete in the PL and CL. Then after that, comes the understanding of your teammates and styles of play under Jose.

United have had too much player turnover each of the past two years (not including pre-Jose) and will continue to do so until Young, Valencia, Felliani (to an extent Zlatan and Carrick) are replaced because they still play prominent roles in the team, whether you agree with it or not. There's no settled XI yet. Rooney -> Zlatan -> Lukaku | Central midfield is still a revolving door, but there's more quality now than in past years | right midfield = nothing consistent. Sanchez has been extremely underwhelming and a passenger too many times.

This was the part of your initial post that triggered my question which I am not sure you answered.

"So the quality and consistency of that quality comes first, then the style of play comes second. You can't play chess with checkers."

I asked if you think city added quality a season ago and have now taken care of the cohesion and style of play this season with the quality they acquired last season. The part in bold suggests that's what you're getting at.

Secondly I asked what stage you think we are at currently? Do you think we are currently adding quality and will improve on the style of play in the next season or 2?

 

[Adisa]

Imo, City's players have improved greatly because they have come into a system. You know how Pep was going to play and saw what he wants trying to do from the very first preseason game. They have improved vastly because of repetition. They constantly repeat their roles and way of playing. To a lesser extent, you can see the similarities at Spurs and Liverpool.
Players imo, should have a role and way of playing so they can improve within those roles.
One of our problem is one game, we are hitting long balls, the next, through the middle, one game we play with a 3, the next with a two, a player plays on the left with a lot of defense responsibility, the next he's on the right with the aim of always running in behind.
When your game is so dependent on how the opponent is playing, it's impossible to build team cohesion and I can't see how players improve within their roles, since they have no set roles.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

This was the part of your initial post that triggered my question which I am not sure you answered.

"So the quality and consistency of that quality comes first, then the style of play comes second. You can't play chess with checkers."

I asked if you think city added quality a season ago and have now taken care of the cohesion and style of play this season with the quality they acquired last season. The part in bold suggests that's what you're getting at.

Secondly I asked what stage you think we are at currently? Do you think we are currently adding quality and will improve on the style of play in the next season or 2?

Me thinks the answer is yes. We are in the period City were at the start of last season. We add, promote and sell the right pieces in the summer we should be good to go by next season IMO.

 

[Smores]

Whenever i see buzz words thrown around like 'cohesive' and 'modern' its usually a pretty good indication that the poster is using them because they can't explain in any further depth. It's lazy moaning and more often than not parroting what they've read.

There's plenty of debates to be had but when you throw them all under such useless terms its meaningless.

The "individual" one gripes me as its fairly evident what our players try to acheive together. Its the same every game and not at all made up on the spot. I'm not saying i agree with the patterns of play but if you've yet to spot any then you're not watching very attentively.

 

[JPRouve]

Imo, City's players have improved greatly because they have come into a system. You know how Pep was going to play and saw what he wants trying to do from the very first preseason game. They have improved vastly because of repetition. They constantly repeat their roles and way of playing. To a lesser extent, you can see the similarities at Spurs and Liverpool.
Players imo, should have a role and way of playing so they can improve within those roles.
One of our problem is one game, we are hitting long balls, the next, through the middle, one game we play with a 3, the next with a two, a player plays on the left with a lot of defense responsibility, the next he's on the right with the aim of always running in behind.
When your game is so dependent on how the opponent is playing, it's impossible to build team cohesion and I can't see how players improve within their roles, since they have no set roles.

It's also a big problem when plan A fails because the players have nothing to hang onto

 

[roonster09]

It's also a big problem when plan A fails because the players have nothing hang onto

Their plan is A is very good and they have very good set piece threat too. So maybe that's their plan B.

For me there isn't much noticeable changes like playing long balls but he makes lot of small changes to control the game, like making some player playing deeper, or pushing wide, or making fullback either play like wingback to provide width or play in midfield to crowd the midfield. There are lot of things that he does that can be called as plan B.

 

[JPRouve]

Their plan is A is very good and they have very good set piece threat too. So maybe that's their plan B.

For me there isn't much noticeable changes like playing long balls but he makes lot of small changes to control the game, like making some player playing deeper, or pushing wide, or making fullback either play like wingback to provide width or play in midfield to crowd the midfield. There are lot of things that he does that can be called as plan B.

I have no idea why I bolded that part, it was supposed to be the last sentence.

 

[Sylar]

Funny thing is, we could have still been knocked out going for it against Sevilla, but fans would have been more forgiving.
What we saw against Sevilla isnt even vintage Mourinho. It was peak LVG at United without the needless possession. So maybe more Moyes vs Olympiakos away?

The one thing that his Inter team also had were defenders who were rabidly cheering tackles as if they had scored goals.
(well also a structured and set team. Actually it seems all his teams had a pretty set at least 8 or 9 out of 11. For United it seems to change almost every game).