I think they would probably see that as collateral damage. I personally don't think we'll lose anyone of huge importance long term. Even if we lost Garnacho, I think we'd get good money and long term be better off.
3-4-3 Ain’t it
- Thread starter RedDevilCanuck
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Someone in the club hierarchy decided 3-4-3 was it!
That's why Ruben is here, he has to find which players in our employ right now, can function in the 343 and that is the whole purpose of what he is doing, right now.
Maybe in his prelim with Sir Jim he has been promised other players, but who and when? More likely he has been told sort those out who can play the way you want and sell the rest. For example it could even mean such as Martinez leaving, he is a very good Left CB in a back 4, but not in a back 3, he needs someone outside him.
These are the sort of risks of course, where good players in our current system (at least playing with a back 4) such as Martinez may need to go; we will get more for him than we paid, which would be something of a miracle at this club.
The worse risk of course is being drawn into a relegation 'dog-fight', but no one wants to hear that, its ridiculous, isn't? However if it was to occur, does anyone seriously think the current squad could win out in such a struggle?
However, lets be honest a few more results like Bournemouth and Wolves will start to give fans terrible nightmares, like we had in the 70's when reds fans woke up screaming..... " no, no, no... we are too good to go down"... "there are others worse than us..." etc. Then the nightmare became a reality!
It's more than likely if Ruben can't sort out a squad that can play effectively in 343, from the ones he has, Sir Jim will have to have another little chat with the manager. The problem may well be that with Ruben's approach appearing to be 'whatever happens the sun will still rise tomorrow', he seems to present himself like the eternal optimist.... if so, then yet another 'back me or sack' scenario begins to form at OT.
Meanwhile the ship is drifting with the tide!
That's why Ruben is here, he has to find which players in our employ right now, can function in the 343 and that is the whole purpose of what he is doing, right now.
Maybe in his prelim with Sir Jim he has been promised other players, but who and when? More likely he has been told sort those out who can play the way you want and sell the rest. For example it could even mean such as Martinez leaving, he is a very good Left CB in a back 4, but not in a back 3, he needs someone outside him.
These are the sort of risks of course, where good players in our current system (at least playing with a back 4) such as Martinez may need to go; we will get more for him than we paid, which would be something of a miracle at this club.
The worse risk of course is being drawn into a relegation 'dog-fight', but no one wants to hear that, its ridiculous, isn't? However if it was to occur, does anyone seriously think the current squad could win out in such a struggle?
However, lets be honest a few more results like Bournemouth and Wolves will start to give fans terrible nightmares, like we had in the 70's when reds fans woke up screaming..... " no, no, no... we are too good to go down"... "there are others worse than us..." etc. Then the nightmare became a reality!
It's more than likely if Ruben can't sort out a squad that can play effectively in 343, from the ones he has, Sir Jim will have to have another little chat with the manager. The problem may well be that with Ruben's approach appearing to be 'whatever happens the sun will still rise tomorrow', he seems to present himself like the eternal optimist.... if so, then yet another 'back me or sack' scenario begins to form at OT.
Meanwhile the ship is drifting with the tide!
Ruben Amorim right now needs results and needs to play the team like what it is a bottom 6 club trying to nick a result against Newcastle and Liverpool. One point will be near impossible from those two games with how we are playing. But right now the team needs to start wining and scoring goals. I’d change the team for Newcastle to something like this;
Tom Heaton(GK)
L Martinez(LCB)
H Maguire(CB)
MDL (RCB)
Amad(RWB)
Casemiro(DM)
T Collyer(CM)
N Mazraoui (LWB)
A Garnaucho (L10)
R Hojlund (9)
C Eriksen (R10)
Bruno, Ugarte are out, Rashford probably won’t be in the Squad and Kobbie struggling massively right now. Newcastle will dominate the ball with their midfield and they have far more in attack than us right now.
Tom Heaton(GK)
L Martinez(LCB)
H Maguire(CB)
MDL (RCB)
Amad(RWB)
Casemiro(DM)
T Collyer(CM)
N Mazraoui (LWB)
A Garnaucho (L10)
R Hojlund (9)
C Eriksen (R10)
Bruno, Ugarte are out, Rashford probably won’t be in the Squad and Kobbie struggling massively right now. Newcastle will dominate the ball with their midfield and they have far more in attack than us right now.
lost me at Heaton
Would a 343 be better than a 3421 in terms of attacking threat. I don't really know the advantages/disadvantages of either formation other than the obvious
Considering how much talk there was around Amorim's tactics before he joined us, the whole evolution he made in Sporting - somehow 99% people of this forum didn't read nor listen any of them. He is very tactically flexible and his whole tactic relies on the players he has to choose from. Our lot is so terrible and none of his variations work yet. So it takes time and patience to teach them and see who we can add to the squad for roles that can't be found within current squad.
That depends if his 3-4-3 is with wide forwards, or floating number 10s and whether the middle CB will step into midfield to cover one of the double pivot midfielder in possession, if he pushes forward.
That all relies on specific player profiles and their ability at our level.
That depends if his 3-4-3 is with wide forwards, or floating number 10s and whether the middle CB will step into midfield to cover one of the double pivot midfielder in possession, if he pushes forward.
That all relies on specific player profiles and their ability at our level.
Yep and it's not like Dalot has even been great defensively on the left. He offers very little going forward, and provides no real outlet.
Perhaps so but I see another expensive retooling of this squad in the near future. Let's hope the club can afford it.
Not sure if this has been discussed but I dont think Zirkzee has been tried in one of the positions behind Hojlund. He might be better there than up top. Need to find a position for him as he’s not getting sold this early on.
He has, only that it was Rashford who was playing up top then. And he was ok, but we dominated so hard, so everyone was ok.
I thought Rashford was the CF only in one game and that was against Ipswich. We didn’t dominate that game at all
Yeah it would be interesting if someone like Athletico Madrid came in with a £50m bid for Martinez in the summer. He’s definitely not in the unsellable pile but we also have 3 other CBs running out of contract so would create even more upheaval of the squad.Someone in the club hierarchy decided 3-4-3 was it!
That's why Ruben is here, he has to find which players in our employ right now, can function in the 343 and that is the whole purpose of what he is doing, right now.
Maybe in his prelim with Sir Jim he has been promised other players, but who and when? More likely he has been told sort those out who can play the way you want and sell the rest. For example it could even mean such as Martinez leaving, he is a very good Left CB in a back 4, but not in a back 3, he needs someone outside him.
These are the sort of risks of course, where good players in our current system (at least playing with a back 4) such as Martinez may need to go; we will get more for him than we paid, which would be something of a miracle at this club.
The worse risk of course is being drawn into a relegation 'dog-fight', but no one wants to hear that, its ridiculous, isn't? However if it was to occur, does anyone seriously think the current squad could win out in such a struggle?
However, lets be honest a few more results like Bournemouth and Wolves will start to give fans terrible nightmares, like we had in the 70's when reds fans woke up screaming..... " no, no, no... we are too good to go down"... "there are others worse than us..." etc. Then the nightmare became a reality!
It's more than likely if Ruben can't sort out a squad that can play effectively in 343, from the ones he has, Sir Jim will have to have another little chat with the manager. The problem may well be that with Ruben's approach appearing to be 'whatever happens the sun will still rise tomorrow', he seems to present himself like the eternal optimist.... if so, then yet another 'back me or sack' scenario begins to form at OT.
Meanwhile the ship is drifting with the tide!
Might be foolish of me, but I think with vivell, berrada, Wilcox and the fact Ineos want do all this with minimal spend as possible, we should be able to unearth some bargains and the rest won't be on mega money, if we do need to sell.
He's better at staying wide as a lwb thwn as a fullback. That's about the best I can say.
I don't see the point in playing him ahead of an attacking player there because he's nearly always in line with the opposition centrebacks. To the point it actually makes attacking harder because he either gets caught offside or takes away the space from one of our forwards.
Then he invariably wants to cut inside anyway so it's not like the opposition even need to pick him up, which they don't.
This is the biggest problem with playing him there, make us so predictable down the left. Shaw can't stay fit I really don't see why he hasn't at least given Antony 20 minutes there. He's played him at RWB, it's not a great shit to move him across. There's no where else for him to play in this formation. And you never know he could be good there.
Onana (GK)
Yoro (LCB)
H Maguire(CB)
MDL (RCB)
Anthony (RWB)
Casemiro(CM)
Ugarte (DM)
Mazraoui (LWB)
Erikson/Mainoo (L10)
R Hojlund/Zirkzee (9)
Amad (R10)
Until we can buy in Jan.
Yoro (LCB)
H Maguire(CB)
MDL (RCB)
Anthony (RWB)
Casemiro(CM)
Ugarte (DM)
Mazraoui (LWB)
Erikson/Mainoo (L10)
R Hojlund/Zirkzee (9)
Amad (R10)
Until we can buy in Jan.
Imo wingbacks need to have a good pace and physicality on them, think Reece James / Walker / Rose / Bale (when he was young), I don’t think anyone in our team is anywhere close to meeting such criteria (the closest we have is Shaw but he’s a sick note). It will be next to impossible to implement it successfully in English football without those type of players in the team for this formation.
Same. Cannot be taken seriously
It's the only system Amorin plays.
He isn't going to change it - so this is indeed, It. For now.
The players here either fit in, or they get cast out or sold.
Get used to it.
It may well bow up in our face in 3-4 years when Amorin moves on and we switch formations again (we wont play 3-4-3 forever) and then we have a whole sqaud signed and used to Amorin's way but it is what it is.
Amorin sold his vision - we have to allow it time to develop and grow. Amorin will not change formation - he's already said as much.
The worrying part is that bar Amad and Maz - no current player has stepped up and shown any worth in any of the new positions. Garnacho has been underwhelming as a 10, Fernandes has shifted between an 8 and a 10 with no real influence to note, Anthony has been a bit meh at RWB, Dalot has been an absolute shocker at LWB, Zirkzee not really kicking on as a 10 or 9, Mainoo is out of sorts. Mount did show some promise as a 10 but injured until March now.
I'd imagine Amorin would have expected more of the current squad to step up into the newer roles than he's seen. He probably needs more transfers than first thought based on this - which means his transformation will probably take a season or 2 longer than he would have liked.
Garnacho, Martinez, Onana, Dalot have probably all become sellable under Amorin whereas they were nailed onto stay under ETH
He isn't going to change it - so this is indeed, It. For now.
The players here either fit in, or they get cast out or sold.
Get used to it.
It may well bow up in our face in 3-4 years when Amorin moves on and we switch formations again (we wont play 3-4-3 forever) and then we have a whole sqaud signed and used to Amorin's way but it is what it is.
Amorin sold his vision - we have to allow it time to develop and grow. Amorin will not change formation - he's already said as much.
The worrying part is that bar Amad and Maz - no current player has stepped up and shown any worth in any of the new positions. Garnacho has been underwhelming as a 10, Fernandes has shifted between an 8 and a 10 with no real influence to note, Anthony has been a bit meh at RWB, Dalot has been an absolute shocker at LWB, Zirkzee not really kicking on as a 10 or 9, Mainoo is out of sorts. Mount did show some promise as a 10 but injured until March now.
I'd imagine Amorin would have expected more of the current squad to step up into the newer roles than he's seen. He probably needs more transfers than first thought based on this - which means his transformation will probably take a season or 2 longer than he would have liked.
Garnacho, Martinez, Onana, Dalot have probably all become sellable under Amorin whereas they were nailed onto stay under ETH
I think ot makes a lot more sense to have the wing back play on the side of their strongest foot in this system as well.
Wingers you might want to cut or run inside the opposition fullback, but wing backs surely the point is to stretch the opposition and draw the opposing defenders out so there is room for one of the front 3 to run inside?
If they are trying to turn the opposition defence themselves it only makes sense if it's to get behind and get a ball into the box
Don't get me wrong, i fully accept there is going to be a transitional period, which is what we're going through currently, i just feel that a bigger deal is made of the whole system/formation thing than is necessary. It doesn't help that the media are all over it like a cheap suit which only inflames the whole situation. It's not like we're asking Maguire to play upfront. You're either good enough to play at this level or you aren't. Time will show us who is and who isn't.
2 10s won't work in this league. Even improved 10s than we have. Maybe 2 Rooneys.
Absolutely detest this formation. Yes it may work if you have the right personnel, we clearly don't.
Asking our fullbacks to play like wingers.
Too defensive.
All our attacking players nullified.
Asking our fullbacks to play like wingers.
Too defensive.
All our attacking players nullified.
We don't have the players to play 343 and we may get relegated before we have the chance to buy ones that'd make it work to a truly top standard.
We are creating zero
Surely we are better than the sum of our parts?
You can stick these players in whatever formation you want.. it won’t make a difference, they struggle to move and also pass to each other while they’re doing it.. they’ll always look second best
I don't know how anyone can judge the formation with our squad.
This is a bunch that was 13th playing for the manager who assembled the squad in their preferred formation.
This is a bunch that was 13th playing for the manager who assembled the squad in their preferred formation.
We don't have the personnel to play any system properly, the squad is a mish mash that's doesn't have anywhere near enough physicality for the league no matter what system we try.
It’s a god-awful formation that gives us zero attacking edge while making almost all of our players look worse than they are. Simply no excuse for him to keep playing it.
We’re running out of new excuses, but I must admit “not enough time to train” is a pretty good one.
We don't have the players for any formation today (or most days).
- CF - Neither Zrikzee nor Hojlund can play in this league.
- Left back/left wing back - we don't have one
- Midfield - Today, Ugarte and Bruno are suspended. Which means we had no choice but to play with the geriatric duo. Could've started Mainoo, but he's been in bad form recently and probably needed a bit of a rest so I do get it. Though it failed woefully not playing mainoo
- Wingers/attacking mids - We have Amad who is worth a start right now. Garnacho is young and has potential, but is so far off form from long ago and again, you can't just keep starting kids when they aren't in form
That might have been the case 15-20 years ago but these days with how hyper focused football is on Tactics/formations etc. it is a fairly big deal.
Seeing it again and again, game being lost in the midfield, the opposition break through that area of the pitch too easily and in the build up there's no substance. I look at these issues from the basis of position compared to player quality / availability.
United have had too many managers using a useless double pivot to pioneer so much of the teams play yet United's best midfield by a distance was a three of Matic, Herrera and Pogba. It wasn't perfect but there's no midfield pairing that outclassed those three in terms of balance and quality.
United have had too many managers using a useless double pivot to pioneer so much of the teams play yet United's best midfield by a distance was a three of Matic, Herrera and Pogba. It wasn't perfect but there's no midfield pairing that outclassed those three in terms of balance and quality.
Absolutely I think this system will only work once we have top wingbacks playing on their natural sides to provide width and help us stretch teams. Look at Dalot tonight, total non entity going forward.
It shouldn't be though as one man assembled 80% of it to play a very specific formation and style.
Conte made it work with Victor Moses & Marcos Alonso. That's the blue print to follow.
You don't need "top" wing backs - i doubt there's many even on the market, considering clubs don't play this system. But you need at least one strong attacking ball carrier, and a genuine crossing threat from the other wing. To make that work though, you need CBs comfortable defending the channels (Azpilicueta and David Luiz) because you're always going to be exposed there. And you also need 2 rock solid CMs defensively (Kante and Matic)
And he did an absolutely terrible job at that.
Unless we buy a lot of starters in January playing that system with these players could really get us relegated.
Amorim must see this at this stage.
Amorim must see this at this stage.
3-4-3 aint it… with this set of players. Splash the cash in January, use some levers like they do in Barcelona. Sell some youth.. do something
Which was my point, I agree.
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