Dems seem to play by the book - Which I agree they shouldn’t. Absolutely agree on that.
2024 U.S. Elections | Trump wins
- Thread starter Raoul
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Dems seem to play by the book - Which I agree they shouldn’t. Absolutely agree on that.
Liz Cheney is with Harris in Wisconsin right now. Nice to see.
Dick Cheney is not my cup of tea, but he seems to have done a good job raising her. I would vote for this woman for president.
Dick Cheney is not my cup of tea, but he seems to have done a good job raising her. I would vote for this woman for president.
Add a zero to the body count total. That would be 10x worse.
You can’t possibly think that a man that’s called for a ban on Muslims and frequently brands them as dogs, while being surrounded by prominent pro-Israeli voices that lavish praise on him, all while having a pathological misunderstanding of international aid and relations attached… wouldn’t just shrug if the entire Middle East erupted?
Of course he’d be 10X worse. And then some. Palestine would -for all intents and purposes- come close to total annihilation if Trump had a second full term.
Liz Cheney i don't much of have a problem with, her father aka the destroyer of Iraq, better stay far away from the campaign though.
Difference between having political disagreements and being a literal war criminal.
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Yes. He should stay away, and I expect him to not be active in this campaign.
Today, Harris mentioned him quickly, out of respect to Liz. That was a reasonable approach.
Some wants Bush Jr to come out and endorse Harris too, but i'm happy it looks like he is staying out of it completely, its not "help" you would want, and i think he realizes it too.
For some, it’s enough that he is not voting for Trump.
I do want to say, though, that over the past decade the Bushes and the Obama’s got closer to each other, and the Obama’s are popular among Democrats.
She was the 3rd ranking member of the House Republican caucus, you think she didn’t have hand in voting for the vote to repeal ACA, longest gov shutdown in history, Trump tax cuts, voting against the voting rights bill etc? You think she didn’t support the SC picks, the repeal of Roe, were she still in her seat?
Yes, kudos to her for breaking with her party over the bare minimum for a representative democracy, but cool it with the love in, the likes of her, Adam Kinzinger and Geoff Duncan, or the people at Lincoln Project. They like the things Trump do in office, voted with him 95% of the time (bare minimum), it’s just minus the overt authoritarian shit.
Ya this is all valid, fair play to them for sticking their neck out to try and stop Trump (we know that MAGA will target these folks first if they win), but it's also fair to not have to put them in positions to influence policy. After all the goal is to have 2 healthy political parties and I would imagine most of the anti-Trump coalition are on the same page regarding that.
GFC followed by 14 years of Tory incompetence and Brexit silliness.
I don't know how or why but ......
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dick cheney's honesty
@InfiniteBoredom what word will jon ossoff 2036 use for trump... unifying? willing to work across the aisle? patriot?
@InfiniteBoredom what word will jon ossoff 2036 use for trump... unifying? willing to work across the aisle? patriot?
People have been saying "Trump would be 10x worse" even as the situation becomes 10x, 20x, 30x worse. At a certain point it just becomes an article of faith backed by nothing.
Biden is not surrounded by Norman Finkelstein. Who is around him? Brett McGurk, a guy who quit his job at the Trump administration over the decision to remove troops from Syria, Amos Hochstein, a man born in Israel and who served in the IDF. Those are the guys from that recent Politico article.
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I think people need to start realizing that Palestinians deserve a lot of the blame for why they are in the position they are, namely lack of a strong visionary leader and/or inability of the population to support such a leader. Where is their Mandela, Gandhi, or MLK? They don't have one and there are multiple reasons for that. People need to stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, there are far more admirable anti-colonial struggles than the Palestinian one, which lacks a lot of morality. Don't forget what they did to the Jordanians for example.
I would love more than anything to throw Netanyahu in the Hague, he deserves to be cell mates with Mladic. Biden of all people probably wants to do so deep down given that Netanyahu has probably not screwed a politician more over the last 20 years than Biden (both in the Obama and current administrations). It would be a great site to see the settlers forced to leave their compounds and run back to Israel with their tails between their legs. But regardless of what happens in this US election, that is not going to happen for a whole host of reasons, largely centered around the fact that if the Palestinians and Iranians had the means, they would be just as genocidal and cruel towards the Israelis, it's that simple. The Arabs and Palestinians certainly tried long before to do this, long before the atrocities by the Israelis in Gaza or the West Bank, but the Palestinians were incompetent and lost and are paying the consequences for that now. It's clear that Israel struggles to defend itself despite the claims of the superiority of their military, without American support several ballistic missiles would have hit Israeli cities and killed 100s to 1000s a couple days back. Hence why it's hard to cut off aid to Israel, the pendulum would swing so dramatically in the opposite direction we would have a new crisis of population on our hands in a few years.
Had the Palestinians adopted a non-violent struggle and Netanyahu still pursued what he was always going to do, there would be a lot more political will in the US to cut off funding to Israel and to pressure Israel to extradite Netanyahu, including from American Jews who are ultimately far more liberal than Israeli Jews. A targeted, significant non-violent struggle (particularly against settlers in the West Bank who are extremely trigger-happy) could have yielded a lot of benefits in the long run for the Palestinians but they lack the discipline to commit to such a strategy.
Anyways, this post is in some ways a deviation from the topic of the thread but hopefully provides some insight into the decision-making process in the context of the US election regarding this crisis that is now escalating into Lebanon.
I would love more than anything to throw Netanyahu in the Hague, he deserves to be cell mates with Mladic. Biden of all people probably wants to do so deep down given that Netanyahu has probably not screwed a politician more over the last 20 years than Biden (both in the Obama and current administrations). It would be a great site to see the settlers forced to leave their compounds and run back to Israel with their tails between their legs. But regardless of what happens in this US election, that is not going to happen for a whole host of reasons, largely centered around the fact that if the Palestinians and Iranians had the means, they would be just as genocidal and cruel towards the Israelis, it's that simple. The Arabs and Palestinians certainly tried long before to do this, long before the atrocities by the Israelis in Gaza or the West Bank, but the Palestinians were incompetent and lost and are paying the consequences for that now. It's clear that Israel struggles to defend itself despite the claims of the superiority of their military, without American support several ballistic missiles would have hit Israeli cities and killed 100s to 1000s a couple days back. Hence why it's hard to cut off aid to Israel, the pendulum would swing so dramatically in the opposite direction we would have a new crisis of population on our hands in a few years.
Had the Palestinians adopted a non-violent struggle and Netanyahu still pursued what he was always going to do, there would be a lot more political will in the US to cut off funding to Israel and to pressure Israel to extradite Netanyahu, including from American Jews who are ultimately far more liberal than Israeli Jews. A targeted, significant non-violent struggle (particularly against settlers in the West Bank who are extremely trigger-happy) could have yielded a lot of benefits in the long run for the Palestinians but they lack the discipline to commit to such a strategy.
Anyways, this post is in some ways a deviation from the topic of the thread but hopefully provides some insight into the decision-making process in the context of the US election regarding this crisis that is now escalating into Lebanon.
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Yeah, I don' think there is a way to make it 10x worse for the Palestinians at this point. What's 10x worse than indiscriminate murder, famine, homelessness, constant displacement, etc.? The only reasonable argument is that Trump will certainly be a continuation, whereas Harris might represent a slight change in direction towards something better. But it's a hope more than anything.
dick cheney's honesty
@InfiniteBoredom what word will jon ossoff 2036 use for trump... unifying? willing to work across the aisle? patriot?
Embarrassing. Let's just assume it's the dementia and move on.
Probably murdered by Israel, to be fair.
To be fair, the Afrikaaners locked Mandela in a cage on an island for two decades, that didn't stop his movement.
There is 0% chance that Joe Biden wants Netanyahu in the Hague.
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Do you believe that Biden is galvanised by voices around him, telling him he’s wonderful, regardless of policy? Because Trump is.
The first point is toast. That man would let the populace be eradicated if he was getting cheered by those close to him. He be planning to buy land there for a golf resort.
He’s not normal. Political norms do not apply to him. It really will be orders of magnitude worse.
This opener invalidates everything that comes after. Jesus Christ.
No but it did stop his effectiveness until after he was released.
If they’d simply murdered him (along with a few thousand men, women and children just so they could get at him), we likely wouldn’t be discussing him today.
Does the little girl sniped repeatedly in the head by Israeli soldiers deserve blame for the position she was in? or does the mother scooping up bits of her child from the road and putting them in a bucket, after being torn to shreds by US-Israeli weaponry deserve blame for the position she is in. Or do the Palestinians systematically raped and mutilated by members of the IDF deserve blame for the sickening depravity of the soldiers?
It's so cool that you have a tier list of admirable anti-colonial struggles and use it to question the ligitimacy of those that don't measure up. Which are these struggles not lacking in morality?
Your position would be to condemn the struggles to liberate the likes of Haiti, Kenya, Algeria, South Africa etc. because of their violence and acts of terrorism. And you think that they should have been kept under the brutal colonial regimes because of their lack of morality.
Wrong thread, but a car crash of a post anyway that would be better placed in the bin.
Yes.
The voices around Biden told this clearly mentally unfit man to remain as Democratic nominee even as all polls showed him losing to Trump. This just happened.
Obviously, it's not like you can actually ever verify a counterfactual in politics. But Trump is extremely eager to accuse democrats of being Hamas plants and Republican Party has basically no divide on this issue, compared to Democrats.
Palestinians themselves have the same fears about Trump. They don't think any US president will actually solve anything, but like any other rational/normal people, they can see the frothing lunatic will only make things worse and hope Kamala is different. They are probably wrong, but it's a sad indictment of discussion when those suffering the most have more positivity than the armchair activists.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024...st-palestinians-react-to-us-presidential-race
Just to be clear and ensure that I understand the point you’re making here, ignoring trump and what he would do, are you saying that on this day, based on what has transpired so far and what is going on today, October 4th 2024, that Palestine is not on the road to total annihilation?
Despite the title, most of this article is not about fear of Trump. There's barely any positivity to it.
Man alive that’s a dumb take.
Even if I take it at face value; what just happened was he stepped/was kicked aside.
No. I’m saying the car is in 2nd gear and Trump won’t object to the accelerator being pressed to the floor.
Presumably, in this sanitised version of history you've learned, you missed the violence enacted by the ANC and Mandela, the military training he organised for some of his followers, the indiscriminate violence meted out by the Afrikaaners onto the black population and the placing of the ANC and Mandela onto the terrorist watch list by governments such as the USA and UK (in the USA's case until 2008)?
Mandela wasn't sitting there singing kumbaya, holding hands with the South African whites. Nor was black freedom won in south Africa through the kindness of their white 'neighbours'.
For what it's worth, there may well be a Palestinian Mandela. He's currently languishing in solitary confinement in an Israeli prison, most likely being beaten.
You can't really put a / on two things that are opposites.
It's not that Trump is a great guy or a peacenik. It's that you keep saying he would be worse because of "X" thing that also applies to Biden.
I'd love to hear the crowd reaction to this.
Also, what's the play here? Is Dick Cheney even well-liked by Independents and moderate Republicans these days?
Anyone choosing to vote against Harris, or not vote, on the issue in Gaza is doing so to punish Harris. Not to improve the situation there by electing Trump.
There is literally nothing besides blind hope to suggest having a Trump administration come January is likely to improve the conflict. There is plenty of historical actions and facts to the contrary.
It's fine to be irate about the current administration, and to take that out by not voting. But it's a reaction, not a solution.
There is literally nothing besides blind hope to suggest having a Trump administration come January is likely to improve the conflict. There is plenty of historical actions and facts to the contrary.
It's fine to be irate about the current administration, and to take that out by not voting. But it's a reaction, not a solution.
It is the opposite of a solution.
This is, in fairness, completely true. It is a reaction and not a solution, I don't think I've seen anyone claim otherwise to be fair.
I think a lot of the to and fro still on this topic comes about from people still trying to pretend the Democrats are currently really reining in Israel in any way, as their bombing intensifies and widens or that things definitively would be so much worse ( said every time over the past year it has gotten so much worse).
I imagine if people just said. You know what. This is a really shit situation. The Dems are shit. The republicans even more so. Palestinians are fecked. Without all these caveats.
It would probbably just be left at that.
It's when people come and say things could be so much worse. Well sure I guess. Perhaps 1 in every 40 Gazans could be dead, as opposed to the 1 in 50 now. Perhaps 99% of buildings could be gone, as opposed to the 90% or so that are. Perhaps they could set up concentration camps for them or literally drive them into the sea. Sure these things could happen. Though from the evidence we've seen so far, the weapons would keep flowing either way, whoever is sitting in the WH.
But yes, your main point is right. It's a visceral emotional reaction, as opposed to a reasoned thought process about making things better.
For what it's worth and to make all those ready to blame Arabs/ Muslims/ leftists for a Harris loss. At least on here the only person who is actually eligible to vote who was thinking it abstaining for the above has I believe said they're gonna vote for Harris anyway.