2024 U.S. Elections | Trump wins

AfonsoAlves said:
This is just not true though, whether that be in the US or in the Western World in general.

You wouldn't believe the number of people who subscribe to fiscal tightening, who don't believe in Keynesian economics, who don't believe in big government, the number of people who believe that the state's responsibility should be instead handled by the community (church or other forms of communal support). The number of people who believe that the US debt crisis is truly catastrophic, or who are truly against Universal healthcare because it's "inefficient" is staggering.
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It's completely true and your denial that it is true just proves the point. Reality has a liberal bias because conservatives don't actually have a leg to stand on when it comes to the issues that affect people on a daily basis so they have to resort to fearmongering and lies.

"Staggering" is doing a lot of work there bub. If it was actually "staggering" then there would have been a right-wing candidate who would speak about literally any of those issues at some point in the last few decades. And gosh, if only we could look retrospectively at the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war to have some accountability over where the national debt is actually coming from! Here's a hint - it's not social safety net programs! Perhaps Trump in all his eloquence could mobilize this staggering voting bloc - he's of course a big church / community guy.

You are better off just accepting the simple fact that right wingers have to combat demographic realities by lying and making shit up. It's extremely comical that you are being so precious about the objective fact that reality has a liberal bias because conservatives constantly create fictions about what's actually happening - it's literally their only recourse to retain power.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
It's completely true and your denial that it is true just proves the point. Reality has a liberal bias because conservatives don't actually have a leg to stand on when it comes to the issues that affect people on a daily basis so they have to resort to fearmongering and lies.

"Staggering" is doing a lot of work there bub. If it was actually "staggering" then there would have been a right-wing candidate who would speak about literally any of those issues at some point in the last few decades. And gosh, if only we could look retrospectively at the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war to have some accountability over where the national debt is actually coming from! Here's a hint - it's not social safety net programs! Perhaps Trump in all his eloquence could mobilize this staggering voting bloc - he's of course a big church / community guy.

You are better off just accepting the simple fact that right wingers have to combat demographic realities by lying and making shit up. It's extremely comical that you are being so precious about the objective fact that reality has a liberal bias because conservatives constantly create fictions about what's actually happening - it's literally their only recourse to retain power.
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This is the kind of hubris that allowed Trump to be elected in the first place, this whole: "You guys are just fecking stupid and are all brainwashed by Right wing propaganda" is not a way to win an argument.

1) Yeah, I mean quite literally an entire GOP movement stemmed out of those views, a movement that completely hijacked the GOP agenda for 6 years until the MAGA crowd took it a step further. Tea Party politicians got in all over the place by putting some vague assertations about national debt (amongst very other far-right economic viewpoints).

I don't know what to say, if you don't believe that the American Overton window is incredibly right wing, then I don't know how to convince you.

Everyone agrees that US healthcare is broken and the reason universal healthcare isn't anywhere close to being on the agenda is because a large voting bloc genuinely believes that Government subsidies has made it worse.

2) I mean, quite literally do you forget that 2016-2020 happened?

Trump is a fecking idiot, but he isn't the final form. The final form is someone with those views who isn't a complete shambles of a human being and can actually hold himself together publically without making himself seem inbred. I am far more worried about a Tom Cotton led USA than a Donald Trump led America, from an economic and social perspective. Though, kudo's the one thing that Cotton actually has a good grasp of seems to be foreign policy.

And I'm willing to put money on Tom Cotton running for POTUS at some point.


Spend some time talking to Americans who don't live on the coast lines, you'll be surprised and maybe even horrified to see how people actually think. Research, polling and data shows this too. It isn't a case of "Well, Bush did the tax cuts so how can right wingers believe in being Fiscal hawks" - I mean shit, there's a reason that the term RINO gets thrown about like skittles these days. A lot of Americans feel like the standard establishment GOP doesn't represent their right wing views and have turned to people like Trump.

Also, final note. There's just no reason to be such a dick about things mate, relax. I'm not right wing nor am I defending Right wing views, I'm pointing out that a lot of people have very right wing views in the US and it'll take decades and decades before the Overton window there shifts anything remotely close to Western Europe.
 
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TheMagicFoolBus said:
It's completely true and your denial that it is true just proves the point. Reality has a liberal bias because conservatives don't actually have a leg to stand on when it comes to the issues that affect people on a daily basis so they have to resort to fearmongering and lies.

"Staggering" is doing a lot of work there bub. If it was actually "staggering" then there would have been a right-wing candidate who would speak about literally any of those issues at some point in the last few decades. And gosh, if only we could look retrospectively at the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war to have some accountability over where the national debt is actually coming from! Here's a hint - it's not social safety net programs! Perhaps Trump in all his eloquence could mobilize this staggering voting bloc - he's of course a big church / community guy.

You are better off just accepting the simple fact that right wingers have to combat demographic realities by lying and making shit up. It's extremely comical that you are being so precious about the objective fact that reality has a liberal bias because conservatives constantly create fictions about what's actually happening - it's literally their only recourse to retain power.
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I like the cut of your jib, FoolBus.
 
Watched a couple of Harris/Walz rallies this weekend (Arizona/Vegas) and while they are pretty unremarkable (except the crowd size), I kinda get why Pelosi/Obama wanted an open convention. Harris on the stump is fine, she isn’t bad or anything, safe, to the point, disciplined, but she’s not inspirational, she doesn’t have that instinct to direct the energy of the crowd, leave them transfixed. Walz is much better at this, he evokes much more enthusiasm in his speech despite being the opening act, however, he clearly got the assignment as the attack dog and the combative stance might contrast with the message of unity and optimism the campaign try to portray.

All in all, because they are running against Von Shithispantz and the IKEA stalker, these flaws probably won’t matter, but talent wise not the best the Dems could have mustered to represent them on the national ticket.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Watched a couple of Harris/Walz rallies this weekend (Arizona/Vegas) and while they are pretty unremarkable (except the crowd size), I kinda get why Pelosi/Obama wanted an open convention. Harris on the stump is fine, she isn’t bad or anything, safe, to the point, disciplined, but she’s not inspirational, she doesn’t have that instinct to direct the energy of the crowd, leave them transfixed. Walz is much better at this, he evokes much more enthusiasm in his speech despite being the opening act, however, he clearly got the assignment as the attack dog and the combative stance might contrast with the message of unity and optimism the campaign try to portray.

All in all, because they are running against Von Shithispantz and the IKEA stalker, these flaws probably won’t matter, but talent wise not the best the Dems could have mustered to represent them on the national ticket.
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I would agree with this. There's a reason her campaign crashed and burned in 2019. When she is compared to other Dem candidates, they usually outperform her, mainly because she's not a very good communicator and has to instead rely on scripted one liners.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Eh?

I can’t figure this one out. Is he trying to say she changed her name to Harris? Or that she has another last name after Harris?
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Not sure you need to go that deep to be honest. It's pure racism. How can someone who looks like her, who is half Indian, half black, have a Harris surname?

Must be Singh or Shanequa or something I can easily put in a box like that.
 
The scariest thing about this whole scenario to me is that if Trump weren't such an indisiciplined idiot, he'd easily win this election. And all based on the idea that things are so terrible now, and we need to 'go back' to when things were better.

Why is that so powerful? It's not because of the parties, or the candidates. It's because of our diet of media.

The most telling part of this whole election cycle for me was that Fox News clip on violent crime, where the stats were shown, clear as day that violent crime is down. Then the panel talked about how it certanily doesn't feel that way to them, or to the 'average American' and that they're more scared than ever, and that's on the current administration.

Same thing with the economy. You can make a perfectly cogent argument that inflation has made people 'feel' like the economy is terrible and we need to 'go back' but this should be easily disprovable with facts. The US economy is the envy of the world since covid. Unemployment is near record lows. The market is higher than ever (Trump's barometer).

It's simple human psychology that we crave negative news more than positive. It's simple economics that media companies make more peddling negativity. Therefore, as an entire electorate, we 'feel' that things are worse than they are, thereby blaming the current situation on the incumbent.

It's the same all over the world. I don't know how we get out of it.
 
africanspur said:
Not sure you need to go that deep to be honest. It's pure racism. How can someone who looks like her, who is half Indian, half black, have a Harris surname?

Must be Singh or Shanequa or something I can easily put in a box like that.
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Clearly it’s racist in one way or the other, but it’s such a weird way to make a racist dog whistle. I would have expected him to just focus on her first name, or maybe draw on her middle name as well, rather than grasping for something that isn't really there.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
The final form is someone with those views who isn't a complete shambles of a human being and can actually hold himself together publically without making himself seem inbred.
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Being a complete shambles of a human being who makes himself seem like an inbred moron is part of Trump's appeal among his core base though.

If he were well-spoken and appeared intelligent, he wouldn't have a cult.
 
Shane88 said:
People make a living by doing that shit, just pulling faces "reacting" to videos. Wrecks my head.
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It's insanity. The other day I saw my brother watching one of those cooking tv shows but instead of just watching the show in a normal way he was watching a version with a guy on the bottom corner reacting to what was happening in the show.
 
maniak said:
It's insanity. The other day I saw my brother watching one of those cooking tv shows but instead of just watching the show in a normal way he was watching a version with a guy on the bottom corner reacting to what was happening in the show.
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Confiscate the TV.
 
It's just the right trying to do the Vance couch thing, and missing the point entirely.
 


I’m surprised that the Dems don’t at least try to make a meal out of this. Trump stiffing people is a well known fact, hammer it home repeatedly that he looks to screw the ‘little guy’ at every turn.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
This is the kind of hubris that allowed Trump to be elected in the first place, this whole: "You guys are just fecking stupid and are all brainwashed by Right wing propaganda" is not a way to win an argument.

1) Yeah, I mean quite literally an entire GOP movement stemmed out of those views, a movement that completely hijacked the GOP agenda for 6 years until the MAGA crowd took it a step further. Tea Party politicians got in all over the place by putting some vague assertations about national debt (amongst very other far-right economic viewpoints).

I don't know what to say, if you don't believe that the American Overton window is incredibly right wing, then I don't know how to convince you.

Everyone agrees that US healthcare is broken and the reason universal healthcare isn't anywhere close to being on the agenda is because a large voting bloc genuinely believes that Government subsidies has made it worse.

2) I mean, quite literally do you forget that 2016-2020 happened?

Trump is a fecking idiot, but he isn't the final form. The final form is someone with those views who isn't a complete shambles of a human being and can actually hold himself together publically without making himself seem inbred. I am far more worried about a Tom Cotton led USA than a Donald Trump led America, from an economic and social perspective. Though, kudo's the one thing that Cotton actually has a good grasp of seems to be foreign policy.

And I'm willing to put money on Tom Cotton running for POTUS at some point.


Spend some time talking to Americans who don't live on the coast lines, you'll be surprised and maybe even horrified to see how people actually think. Research, polling and data shows this too. It isn't a case of "Well, Bush did the tax cuts so how can right wingers believe in being Fiscal hawks" - I mean shit, there's a reason that the term RINO gets thrown about like skittles these days. A lot of Americans feel like the standard establishment GOP doesn't represent their right wing views and have turned to people like Trump.

Also, final note. There's just no reason to be such a dick about things mate, relax. I'm not right wing nor am I defending Right wing views, I'm pointing out that a lot of people have very right wing views in the US and it'll take decades and decades before the Overton window there shifts anything remotely close to Western Europe.
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I'm not trying to win any arguments - I'm pointing out that conservatives consistently make up boogeymen to scare people and convince them to vote against their own self-interest. Migrant crime is not a real thing. No one is aborting babies at 8 months just because they feel like it. Trans people aren't trying to molest or convert random children. Most of the Republican base believes that these are all serious problems that need to be addressed but they are obviously not - hence reality having a liberal bias.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
I'm not trying to win any arguments - I'm pointing out that conservatives consistently make up boogeymen to scare people and convince them to vote against their own self-interest. Migrant crime is not a real thing. No one is aborting babies at 8 months just because they feel like it. Trans people aren't trying to molest or convert random children. Most of the Republican base believes that these are all serious problems that need to be addressed but they are obviously not - hence reality having a liberal bias.
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None of the examples you gave are economic? They are all social issues.

For context - this is what you wrote.

It's pretty obvious - right wing / conservative economic policy inherently appeals to a minority of people so their focus instead is on riling up the ignorant masses to convince them to vote against their self-interests. Most of the time this is accomplished by lying - hence the axiom that reality has a liberal bias because conservatives can't actually produce substantive policy arguments with broad appeal.
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Based on what's happening in the swing states where Harris is gradually taking slight leads, I suspect she is currently up by about 4 in the national polls, which due to the short timeline of this election, are behaving more as lagging indicators that are constantly catching up to rapidly changing events on the ground from the Trump assassination attempt to the RNC convention to Biden dropping out to Harris being his replacement to the Walz pick, and in a week the DNC convention. Too many big events are happening in a very short time, resulting in the polls struggling to keep up.
 
lonelyred said:
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I have a question: how come there's such a great moderator in a Republican primaries debate? Don't get me wrong, that's exactly how interviewing politicians should be done, but by today's standards it's quite hostile, so why did they allow it (the candidates, I mean)?
 
cafecillos said:
I have a question: how come there's such a great moderator in a Republican primaries debate? Don't get me wrong, that's exactly how interviewing politicians should be done, but by today's standards it's quite hostile, so why did they allow it (the candidates, I mean)?
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Local television stations (well at least the ones not owned by Sinclair) often have no nonsense reporters who have no issues doing stuff like this.
 
WI_Red said:
Local television stations (well at least the ones not owned by Sinclair) often have no nonsense reporters who have no issues doing stuff like this.
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Thanks for the reply. Is this station generally more liberal leaning? Are there other stations they could have had the debate on instead? I'm just puzzled that the current Republican party, so full of clowns, bigots and thickos, would voluntarily show themselves in such a well moderated environment.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
None of the examples you gave are economic? They are all social issues.

For context - this is what you wrote.
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Ok sure - the same is true of trickle-down economics. They don't work, republicans always have to lie about how devastating higher taxes for billionaires are, again not reflective of reality.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Spend some time talking to Americans who don't live on the coast lines, you'll be surprised and maybe even horrified to see how people actually think. Research, polling and data shows this too. It isn't a case of "Well, Bush did the tax cuts so how can right wingers believe in being Fiscal hawks" - I mean shit, there's a reason that the term RINO gets thrown about like skittles these days. A lot of Americans feel like the standard establishment GOP doesn't represent their right wing views and have turned to people like Trump.
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It's a bit of chicken and egg story, isn't it. Did they believe those things already and the Reps are appealing to that, or did the Reps (and right-leaning anything) sow those ideas so they can use it for elections?

I'm thinking it's at least in part the latter - just like they've managed to make abortion and gun control wedge issues. It's not the same admittedly: people have always had economic views and neoliberalism just got really popular in the 80s. But it's widely known now that it holds many flaws (an understatement from my perspective) and neoliberal views anyway continue to be promoted full on by the Reps.
 
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