2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

[maniak]

I hate the expression "virtue signalling" so much.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

To me it's a complete breakdown of what democracy should be.

People vote, and the intention of democracy, is to vote in their best interests.

It's wholly unrealistic and is just virtue signalling, to be honest.

Perhaps.

But this is the opposite of what is often said in the thread.

There are many, many, many posts here exhorting people to vote for Joe Biden (and now Harris), not because it is in their best interests, but because of solidarity towards minorities, women, immigrants, etc.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

People in this thread know very well that harris supports israel on their genocidal campaign.

The thing is, we don’t.

Sure, we do suspect, with a fairly high degree of certainty, that she will not break in any meaningful way with the Biden policies once in office, given the donors/handlers she surrounds herself with, but that remains a suspicion. As of this moment, she has not been in a position to make the decision herself, nor could she openly and publicly break with him over this, because sitting VP who breaks with prez lose election, so by not voting for her you give up on a chance, however slim, of improving the situation, for the certainty of Trump, who moved the embassy to Jerusalem, assasinated an Iran general and whose top donor said openly that he will let Israel annex the West Bank.

It’s like climate change, we are probably irreversibly and inevitably fecked, but it’s not an excuse to stop trying and let climate deniers do what they want (and yes, I’m aware of the irony about Harris dropping fracking ban). Ultimately, it’s just harm mitigation and we try to do the best we can despite the bleak prospects.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Perhaps.

But this is the opposite of what is often said in the thread.

There are many, many, many posts here exhorting people to vote for Joe Biden (and now Harris), not because it is in their best interests, but because of solidarity towards minorities, women, immigrants, etc.

I kind of agree with the latter also being problematic:

But it's also more palatable because it's for the intrinsic values of domestic populations within a nation state. This is where it get's philosophical and some people might argue that all people are equal and that you cannot prioritise one over another, but that's why nation states exists, to protect the interests of a particular subset of a population.

It's far more acceptable for me for someone to vote on moral capacity over their own interests for their own country, over making a foreign peoples welfare the #1 priority over their own.

I cannot attack Trump voters because they don't want to support Ukraine. It makes me sad, but they're allowed to have that opinion. It, intrinsically, is not their problem.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Perhaps.

But this is the opposite of what is often said in the thread.

There are many, many, many posts here exhorting people to vote for Joe Biden (and now Harris), not because it is in their best interests, but because of solidarity towards minorities, women, immigrants, etc.

I think it's fair to argue that the solidarity you are speaking of here hits a lot closer to home for most voters than what is happening on another continent. Especially as it relates to women, as half the voters are women themselves, and almost every man will have a close relationship to one that could be negatively affected. It's part solidarity for another group, but certainly also in someones own interest that their daughter can access the right reproductive care, for example.

 

[NotThatSoph]

The thing is, we don’t.

Sure, we do suspect, with a fairly high degree of certainty, that she will not break in any meaningful way with the Biden policies once in office, given the donors/handlers she surrounds herself with, but that remains a suspicion. As of this moment, she has not been in a position to make the decision herself, nor could she openly and publicly break with him over this, because sitting VP who breaks with prez lose election, so by not voting for her you give up on a chance, however slim, of improving the situation, for the certainty of Trump, who moved the embassy to Jerusalem, assasinated an Iran general and whose top donor said openly that he will let Israel annex the West Bank.

It’s like climate change, we are probably irreversibly and inevitably fecked, but it’s not an excuse to stop trying and let climate deniers do what they want (and yes, I’m aware of the irony about Harris dropping fracking ban). Ultimately, it’s just harm mitigation and we try to do the best we can despite the bleak prospects.

It's not! Not even close. Actual harm mitigation would include real introspection about signaling, and calculation of political power. This has never happened in this thread, and it never will. The logic that is continously employed here is the same that would lead to conclusions like "protesting is worthless", "collective barganing is a losing battle", and every single other political loss of every single win you could ever think of. Historically, you're fighting for harm maximization, and this time you'll win.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Every few days, someone comes here to lecture us, those who plan to vote for Harris, about how morally bankrupt we are. We heard that already a million times.

How many times we are supposed to explain our position? How many times we are supposed to say that Trump wouldn’t be better than Biden when it comes to the Middle East? How many times we are supposed to explain that we are NOT happy about Gaza? How many times we are supposed to say that we have a democracy to defend, institutions to defend, relationships with allies to defend, etc?

And, yes, the Democrats are not perfect. Far from it, particularly when it comes to Gaza. I have been disappointed by their stand.

It’s exhausting to keep saying that, and it’s tough to see how Biden has let so many of us down with his mishandling of this conflict.

But, whether you like it or not: it’s either Harris or Trump. That’s it. I have no choice but to pick her. If there was a candidate who can win in November and opposes the war, that would be great. But we have no such choice.

 

[Abizzz]

Every few days, someone comes here to lecture us, those who plan to vote for Harris, about how morally bankrupt we are. We heard that already a million times.

How many times we are supposed to explain our position? How many times we are supposed to say that Trump wouldn’t be better than Biden when it comes to the Middle East? How many times we are supposed to explain that we are NOT happy about Gaza? How many times we are supposed to say that we have a democracy to defend, institutions to defend, relationships with allies to defend, etc?

And, yes, the Democrats are not perfect. Far from it, particularly when it comes to Gaza. I have been disappointed by their stand.

It’s exhausting to keep saying that, and it’s tough to see how Biden has let so many of us down with his mishandling of this conflict.

But, whether you like it or not: it’s either Harris or Trump. That’s it. I have no choice but to pick her. No choice.

I'm starting to think they do it because they, like us, can do, are doing, feck all to help. So they do this instead.

 

[Lemoor]

I hate the expression "virtue signalling" so much.

It's amazing when every discussion about it just devolves into bashing the other side for alleged impure intentions.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

It's not! Not even close. Actual harm mitigation would include real introspection about signaling, and calculation of political power. This has never happened in this thread, and it never will. The logic that is continously employed here is the same that would lead to conclusions like "protesting is worthless", "collective barganing is a losing battle", and every single other political loss of every single win you could ever think of. Historically, you're fighting for harm maximization, and this time you'll win.

The immigration bill Harris is touting is more conservative than what bloody Reagan ran on in 1980, after Dukakis lost Dems nominated a Deep South gov who ran as a centrist, after Clinton lost they dug up Biden from a crypt who campaigned against M4A. I don’t know what your signal and political calculation involves but if you think they will react to losing this election by listening to progressives then you don’t know the Democratic Party.

 

[The Boy]

Calling out people online is more reprehensible than voting for a candidate that supports genocide?

You're basically treating voters like children. People in this thread know very well that harris supports israel on their genocidal campaign. If they're ok with that or believe it's a price worth paying they're in their right to vote accordingly, but please stop pretending that's not what you're voting for.

I'm genuinely interested as I do not know what I would if I was a US citizen in a swing state and I've thought about it alot.

If you vote for Harris, then yes part of that vote is supporting her/Biden's foreign policy which is genocidal in its support for Israel.
A vote for Trump is unknown in relationship to the ME, but I doubt given his past comments and actions, the US backing for Netanyahu changes at all and on so many other globally important policies he's worse. I'm thinking climate change, Ukraine, refugees etc
A vote for Stein is a vote for Trump, she is so far from any green politician that I could recognise.
Not voting is basically a vote for Trump because, as I understand it the only way the dems win is with a large turn out.

The choices are pretty sh1t.

What would you do? I'd ask the same of @NotThatSoph as well, as you're both posters I normally find myself agreeing with on lots of issues

 

[AfonsoAlves]

It's amazing when every discussion about it just devolves into bashing the other side for alleged impure intentions.

Because the requirements are absolutely asinine:

“If you don’t vote for this one issue that has practically zero material impact on your life in a country that isn’t even yours, over the 20 other things that directly impact or harm you, you’re a terrible human being!”

I usually hate that term as well to be honest, but how is this anything other than high horse berating.

 

[maniak]

I'm genuinely interested as I do not know what I would if I was a US citizen in a swing state and I've thought about it alot.

If you vote for Harris, then yes part of that vote is supporting her/Biden's foreign policy which is genocidal in its support for Israel.
A vote for Trump is unknown in relationship to the ME, but I doubt given his past comments and actions, the US backing for Netanyahu changes at all and on so many other globally important policies he's worse. I'm thinking climate change, Ukraine, refugees etc
A vote for Stein is a vote for Trump, she is so far from any green politician that I could recognise.
Not voting is basically a vote for Trump because, as I understand it the only way the dems win is with a large turn out.

The choices are pretty sh1t.

What would you do? I'd ask the same of @NotThatSoph as well, as you're both posters I normally find myself agreeing with on lots of issues

Choices are pretty shit, no doubt. In normal circumstances I would vote for the democratic candidate, because they're the least shit ones generally. But we all have our personal red lines, and the complete cooperation with israel in the current genocide would be a red line for me. I'm not sure I could reconcile with my conscience if I voted for a candidate explicitly supporting this. It's too serious, too cruel to discard as the lesser of two evils. It goes beyond that.

If I was american I would probably stay at home, depressed.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It's far more acceptable for me for someone to vote on moral capacity over their own interests for their own country, over making a foreign peoples welfare the #1 priority over their own.

This whole issue is about making a foreign people's welfare the #1 priority over your own: Israelis.

I cannot attack Trump voters because they don't want to support Ukraine. It makes me sad, but they're allowed to have that opinion. It, intrinsically, is not their problem.

That's fine. I don't think Harris voters are evil for supporting her either.

The flow here is usually the opposite, or at least it used to be: it's Dem voters haranging people (real or imagined) for not wanting to vote for Biden or Harris.

 

[Lemoor]

Because the requirements are absolutely asinine:

“If you don’t vote for this one issue that has practically zero material impact on your life in a country that isn’t even yours, over the 20 other things that directly impact or harm you, you’re a terrible human being!”

I usually hate that term as well to be honest, but how is this anything other than high horse berating.

Just to be clear, I do believe that not voting for Harris because of Biden's administration handling of Gaza is a very weird approach. I just hate "virtue signalling" whenever it pops up.

 

[NotThatSoph]

The immigration bill Harris is touting is more conservative than what bloody Reagan ran on in 1980, after Dukakis lost Dems nominated a Deep South gov who ran as a centrist, after Clinton lost they dug up Biden from a crypt who campaigned against M4A. I don’t know what your signal and political calculation involves but if you think they will react to losing this election by listening to progressives then you don’t know the Democratic Party.

Yes, and the reason the Democrats are more anti immigration than even Trump was four years ago is that the Democratic voters let them be. That's how it works. You're literally arguing for this being how it should be. By always voting for "the lesser evil" you're giving all political power to the median voter. That's literally what the median voter theorem says: when people are mindless automations then the winner will be the median, no matter what the median wants. The only way to impact that is to use whatever political power you have to threaten the politicians, by witholding your vote, which is what people here are arguing against. If you used that same logic in the past you'd be arguing for slavery, for killing gay people, and for every single abhorrent thing you can think of, because doing so would be marginally better than the alternative. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't vote for "the lesser evil", but it means that it's a serious decision with obvious drawbacks, and if you don't seriously consider those obvious drawbacks you're enabling evil. And, of course, taking into account how the Democrats will react to a loss is also something you should take into account, I have never said otherwise.

I'm genuinely interested as I do not know what I would if I was a US citizen in a swing state and I've thought about it alot.

If you vote for Harris, then yes part of that vote is supporting her/Biden's foreign policy which is genocidal in its support for Israel.
A vote for Trump is unknown in relationship to the ME, but I doubt given his past comments and actions, the US backing for Netanyahu changes at all and on so many other globally important policies he's worse. I'm thinking climate change, Ukraine, refugees etc
A vote for Stein is a vote for Trump, she is so far from any green politician that I could recognise.
Not voting is basically a vote for Trump because, as I understand it the only way the dems win is with a large turn out.

The choices are pretty sh1t.

What would you do? I'd ask the same of @NotThatSoph as well, as you're both posters I normally find myself agreeing with on lots of issues

I'm not telling people what to do. I think people should vote for who they want to vote for, or not vote if they don't want to vote. However, I want to be very clear that those who try the thing I've been calling out in my last few comments should feck right off. If you think voting for Harris is the best way forward, then swell! Go for it. However, the absolutely rotten logic many in this thread employ leads to moral bankruptcy. It's dumb, it's juvenile, it's voluntarily surrendering any hope of political power, to mostly bad actors. I have never said that people shouldn't vote for Harris, and I never will, but I also won't stop calling out the idiots who insist that it's the only option, because by doing so they're cementing the fate of the people getting killed.

 

[Superden]

Every few days, someone comes here to lecture us, those who plan to vote for Harris, about how morally bankrupt we are. We heard that already a million times.

How many times we are supposed to explain our position? How many times we are supposed to say that Trump wouldn’t be better than Biden when it comes to the Middle East? How many times we are supposed to explain that we are NOT happy about Gaza? How many times we are supposed to say that we have a democracy to defend, institutions to defend, relationships with allies to defend, etc?

And, yes, the Democrats are not perfect. Far from it, particularly when it comes to Gaza. I have been disappointed by their stand.

It’s exhausting to keep saying that, and it’s tough to see how Biden has let so many of us down with his mishandling of this conflict.

But, whether you like it or not: it’s either Harris or Trump. That’s it. I have no choice but to pick her. If there was a candidate who can win in November and opposes the war, that would be great. But we have no such choice.

im sorry this fails to even acknowledge that there will more elections. (trump isnt, howvever much he tries, going end american democracy). if harris looses beacuse people have an issue with her supporting some of most appalling crimes of the israeli state, then it might give food for thought. certainly look at the UK, labour losing (ok just a handful so far) of seats to independents in areas where they wouldve expected to win handsomely, has started to move the dial. of course theres been oushback from the right, but thats to be expected.

 

[Raoul]

These podcasts are going to generate quite a few ads for the Dems.

 

[Raoul]

im sorry this fails to even acknowledge that there will more elections. (trump isnt, howvever much he tries, going end american democracy). if harris looses beacuse people have an issue with her supporting some of most appalling crimes of the israeli state, then it might give food for thought. certainly look at the UK, labour losing (ok just a handful so far) of seats to independents in areas where they wouldve expected to win handsomely, has started to move the dial. of course theres been oushback from the right, but thats to be expected.

If Harris loses it won't be perceived as anything related to foreign policy and everything related to gender, race, and the Dem establishment's cynical attempt at anointing someone who couldn't win against a deranged octogenarian.

 

[ManUtd1999]

 

[Raoul]

One potential hidden variable in this race to offset the hidden Trump voter is the hidden Roe voter on the opposite side. The former helped Trump smash previous R turnout in 20, the latter helped Dems outperform and nearly hold on to the house in 22.

 

[The Boy]

Choices are pretty shit, no doubt. In normal circumstances I would vote for the democratic candidate, because they're the least shit ones generally. But we all have our personal red lines, and the complete cooperation with israel in the current genocide would be a red line for me. I'm not sure I could reconcile with my conscience if I voted for a candidate explicitly supporting this. It's too serious, too cruel to discard as the lesser of two evils. It goes beyond that.

If I was american I would probably stay at home, depressed.

Fair enough, I would definitely do the same if I knew which way my state would go and my vote would make no difference, but in a swing state I don't know if I could live with myself knowing I had helped a Trump win, either way I'm with you I'd be depressed.

 

[ManUtd1999]

One potential hidden variable in this race to offset the hidden Trump voter is the hidden Roe voter on the opposite side. The former helped Trump smash previous R turnout in 20, the latter helped Dems outperform and nearly hold on to the house in 22.

Very good point.

The nice thing about NV is that we can get a good idea about the state before Election Day. And that can help us understand where the electorate is generally.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Every few days, someone comes here to lecture us, those who plan to vote for Harris, about how morally bankrupt we are. We heard that already a million times.

I don't really think that's what happened this time.

[some lame interview question] This is a winning message. As a person in a swing state I can attest that almost everyone i know can't wait to stand in line and vote for this person.

If you live in a swing state now, I assume you are voting for Harris regardless of your contempt?

No I'm not voting for the genociders

But trump!!!

You're sarcastic, but yes Trump. That is all you need to know at this moment in time.

I don't agree, I think you also need to know you're casting you vote for someone who supports genocide. It's not a detail.

I vehemently disagree, but we'll never agree on this anyway.

The government she is a part of has supported genocide for months now, it's not really something debatable.

That is not what I find debatable.

1. Will the US and the world be better off with Harris (or any other Dem for that matter) as opposed to Trump? Yes, clearly.

2. Would the Gaza situation be better with Trump as POTUS? Obviously not.

Be an adult and make a rational choice given the gravity of this election.

What I see is someone who decided to pester others for not voting Harris and who claimed it is not 'adult' to do so. Some pushback might be expected.

 

[Red in STL]

If we going to use our “rational” brains then it’s worth pointing out the individual votes of people on a football forum are meaningless in a national election.

You're right but there's a few on this forum that live in swing states where a few hundred votes may very well make the difference, and it isn't just about the national election, for some semblance of sanity and normalcy the Dem's absolutely must win one of the Senate or the House, a GOP Coongress and Trump in charge will set the country back decades

 

[Mike Smalling]

im sorry this fails to even acknowledge that there will more elections. (trump isnt, howvever much he tries, going end american democracy). if harris looses beacuse people have an issue with her supporting some of most appalling crimes of the israeli state, then it might give food for thought. certainly look at the UK, labour losing (ok just a handful so far) of seats to independents in areas where they wouldve expected to win handsomely, has started to move the dial. of course theres been oushback from the right, but thats to be expected.

I have zero confidence in the Democrats taking any meaningful lessons from the election if they end up losing. And while I do agree that there will be more elections if Trump wins, he can do so much other harm in a new four year term that can severely undermine democracy in other ways.

I can understand not voting Harris for moral reasons, but to do it to try and teach her a lesson, so Democrats adjust their foreign policy position, which they will then run on and implement if they take office again in 2029 is just naive. That's not how it works.

 

[Beachryan]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...threats-hurricane-conspiracies-misinformation

It really is an army of idiots.

 

[Suv666]

These podcasts are going to generate quite a few ads for the Dems.

All these so called fecking centrist comedians campaigning for Trump.
Masks off.

 

[Red in STL]

One potential hidden variable in this race to offset the hidden Trump voter is the hidden Roe voter on the opposite side. The former helped Trump smash previous R turnout in 20, the latter helped Dems outperform and nearly hold on to the house in 22.

I think this correct, it's one of the reasons I think TX and FL will be a lot closer than people seem to think, in FL's case it might explain the Dem's pushing more money there

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I can understand not voting Harris for moral reasons, but to do it to try and teach her a lesson, so Democrats adjust their foreign policy position, which they will then run on and implement if they take office again in 2029 is just naive. That's not how it works.

I don't think these two are all that distinct.

The only lesson you can teach a politician is that you won't vote for them if they do X. What any individual politician or political party chooses to do with that information is anyone's guess. They might try to move toward you, or they might decide they don't need you. If you are a normal voter that might just be fine with you.

 

[gaffs]

Some of Trump's ramblings in Detroit are genuinely amazing. While in Detroit, trying to get votes from people living there, he basically calls it a sh*thole and laments that the whole country would be this bad if Harris was President. It's an...odd strategy.

His thoughts on the rockets is also a masterclass in what happens to a decaying brain.

Remember, he was speaking in room full of white people. The Detroit economic club. He will have assumed they don't live in Detroit. In his mind, Detroit is a sh!t hole, only inhabited by black people, so thought it was safe to say it. Negating the fact it will be on every Detroit and Michigan news station and newspaper today.

As with any of his views, they are at least 30 years out of date.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I don't think these two are all that distinct.

The only lesson you can teach a politician is that you won't vote for them if they do X. What any individual politician or political party chooses to do with that information is anyone's guess. They might try to move toward you, or they might decide they don't need you. If you are a normal voter that might just be fine with you.

Yeah, maybe the sole distinction is the expectation of change on the part of Democrats.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

New WSJ poll has Trump +6 in Nevada.

 

[africanspur]

I'm starting to think they do it because they, like us, can do, are doing, feck all to help. So they do this instead.

I appreciate this is an emotional topic for all but it would be helpful if you don't project your views on others.

Unless you mean are doing something substantial to rein in the main man in which case , yes, none of us can do anything.

 

[gaffs]

So far, neither Biden nor Harris been able to make this very simple point about why the Trump economy was perceived as better.

Agree. Re the economy, Democrats are shit scared about telling it how it.

Trump got handed a great economy from Obama. Trump gave tax cuts to corporations and the rich which added $4.5tril to the national debt. This, plus his COVID mismanagement and him overstimulating the economy was the cause of inflation.

Just because someone lobs you a grenade with the pin pulled out, its not your fault when it blows up in your hands.

 

[Abizzz]

I appreciate this is an emotional topic for all but it would be helpful if you don't project your views on others.

Unless you mean are doing something substantial to rein in the main man in which case , yes, none of us can do anything.

I'm not projecting anything, thank you very much. Unless someone can prove they are making a difference I'm making a factual statement.

 

[gaffs]

Sure but there is very little actual evidence that Dems/Trump is 40k vs 80k dead other than orangemanbad.

We know that Trump is a transactional person. And usually, it only takes flattery from a leader to get him onside. He is touting himself as the most pro Israel US President of all time.

There is no evidence that Harris will continue to support Netanyahu given how he has pushed the relationship between Israel and Biden to the edge.

We know what Biden thinks of Bibi...

Biden - “That son of a b----, Bibi Netanyahu, he’s a bad guy. He’s a bad f---ing guy!”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/08/new-bob-woodward-book-takeaways/

The issue for Harris, she cant split from Biden now or be seen to criticise his support for Israel or Netanyahu. It is fraught with political risk so clear to the election.

 

[Lemoor]

Sure but there is very little actual evidence that Dems/Trump is 40k vs 80k dead other than orangemanbad.

Didn't his administration work the entire time to create something akin to a global coalition against Iran and to tighten relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia? Obviously you can't really check the counterfactual and get precise numbers, but as far as I understand he acted very much like an accelerationist there when he was in power.

 

[africanspur]

I'm not projecting anything, thank you very much. Unless someone can prove they are making a difference I'm making a factual statement.

You didn't say making a difference. You said doing anything to help.

You may not be and that's your perogative. Others are trying whatever small things they can, within their capabilities.

Just because that isn't single handedly stopping Biden or Netanyahu, it isn't 'nothing'.

 

[RoadTrip]

I think there’s a lot of hypothetical in this thread about why you could reasonably justify withholding your vote to ultimately sway the political position of a party. But to my mind, it isn’t practical. The world is incredibly polarised at the moment. As a theory it is true and makes sense. In reality, not voting for the lesser of two evils in this election might mean significant limitations on your democratic ability to drive change for decades. Thats the practical reality. You could say, there’s never a good time. And you’d be right. There’s no crystal ball that I have to purport to know how we break thus toxic political climate. But what I do know is that one needs to consider the practical reality of abstaining to vote, not just the theoretical aspiration of what it means.