2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

RoadTrip said:
I think there’s a lot of hypothetical in this thread about why you could reasonably justify withholding your vote to ultimately sway the political position of a party. But to my mind, it isn’t practical. The world is incredibly polarised at the moment. As a theory it is true and makes sense. In reality, not voting for the lesser of two evils in this election might mean significant limitations on your democratic ability to drive change for decades. Thats the practical reality. You could say, there’s never a good time. And you’d be right. There’s no crystal ball that I have to purport to know how we break thus toxic political climate. But what I do know is that one needs to consider the practical reality of abstaining to vote, not just the theoretical aspiration of what it means.
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Exactly right. There has been plenty of elaboration in terms of how disastrous another Trump term would be for the US domestically - it sure as hell would not be good for the rest of the world either but Americans are the ones that would first and foremost suffer the biggest consequences. My main gripe is that foreign policy is being used as the main driver for not wanting to support Harris/Biden when the other option is NOT one IOTA better in terms of foreign policy, but would in turn significantly screw over the American people. That is why I refer to it as the "adult choice".

We all get it, the situation with Gaza is horrific, but abstaining from voting for Harris (for those "lucky" few in a position to influence the election) achieves feck all in relation to that situation. Talk about "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"
 
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gaffs said:
Remember, he was speaking in room full of white people. The Detroit economic club. He will have assumed they don't live in Detroit. In his mind, Detroit is a sh!t hole, only inhabited by black people, so thought it was safe to say it. Negating the fact it will be on every Detroit and Michigan news station and newspaper today.

As with any of his views, they are at least 30 years out of date.
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He's right. They don't live in Detroit. They live in Milford and Rochester Hills. They hate the city.
 
africanspur said:
You didn't say making a difference. You said doing anything to help.

You may not be and that's your perogative. Others are trying whatever small things they can, within their capabilities.

Just because that isn't single handedly stopping Biden or Netanyahu, it isn't 'nothing'.
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I said that they, like me, are doing feck all to help. I also said that they aren't capable, just like me.

I should have been clearer that I meant help that makes a difference. Alright.
 
you have to vote for candidate A because they may be an evil shit, but candidate B is an even bigger evil shit, is not the best argument, i think.
 
I think there might be a difference in opinion on what 'voting' stands for

You are implying that someone is supporting genocide by simply casting a vote for a Democrat.

But this is not true.

Voting for a party means that one is giving them the accountability for running the country and the way they run it (policies) with an expectation that -

1. The party's policies are going to improve the lives of those within their country overall

2. The party can be pressured or influenced to change course on questionable/atrocious past policies that have affected those inside and outside their country.

By voting for KH, #1 will happen and #2 may possibly happen if she can be pressured to change course on JB's approach

By voting for DT, neither #1 nor #2 will happen. Infact, both will get worse. DT does not care about anything beyond enriching and empowering himself.

By not voting, neither #1 nor #2 will happen. Infact, both will get worse as DT will win.
DT does not care about anything beyond enriching and empowering himself.

Therefore, it is an inane take to keep saying that voting for the D's equates to a supporting genocide.
 
I find it odd to have single issue voters in general...

But it's even odder when the single issue is something that doesn't have any impact on any the day to day of 99% of Americans.

If you're from Lebanon/Palestine/have ties to those places I fully understand but for most others? I don't get it.
 
gaffs said:
We know that Trump is a transactional person. And usually, it only takes flattery from a leader to get him onside. He is touting himself as the most pro Israel US President of all time.

There is no evidence that Harris will continue to support Netanyahu given how he has pushed the relationship between Israel and Biden to the edge.

We know what Biden thinks of Bibi...

Biden - “That son of a b----, Bibi Netanyahu, he’s a bad guy. He’s a bad f---ing guy!”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/08/new-bob-woodward-book-takeaways/
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This is precisely the kind of stuff I'm complaining about.

Joe Biden has an incredibly long, extensive history of commitment to Israel. He has described himself as a Zionist. He had a friendship with Netanyahu spanning decades. He has said he loves Netanyahu. Loves him. This idea that he secretly disagrees with what's been happening is absurd.

It's what I mentioned before, people just refusing to see what's in front of them. Biden is a true believer in this stuff. He says so. The people around him say so. His actions say so. Why can't you believe it? In what world is a transactional person worse than a fanatic?
 
Beachryan said:
I have posted dozens of times that I do not support Israel, think Netanyahu is a war criminal and wish the world would react accordingly. But it's not. That inaction is not restricted to one country, one VP or one voting block of people - except the Israelis. The only people that can fix this at this stage is the Israeli people, and depressingly all the word I hear coming out of there is that they're MORE for the conflict now than on October 6th of last year.

What I do not believe is that literally nothing else matters. Nor do I believe that there is an overall equivalency between Harris and Trump simply because of the conflict, and the US's inability to date to stop it.

This is a football forum, and you're posting in a thread about a hugely impactful US election coming up in under a month. And rather than discussing any number of issues around that election, some posters just come in here to accuse everyone involved of being genocidal. Go ahead and explain to me how that is in anyway constructive, helpful or achieving anything at all?
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Your first post here said that trade with the EU (of which weapons is a small part) is as crucial as the 17bn in *free* weapons that the US gives Israel. It takes about a minute to see the difference. No other country gives military *aid* to Israel, which has a relatively small economy, with this 17bn financing about a third of the cost of war!

The Israeli people want more conflict - and the American people, who are loading their guns with the ammunition that is the only reason they can sustain this conflict - don't care about the effects of this conflict, since the only Americans dying are non-white dual citizens. The point of leverage isn't Israel, because it is not going to change absent a military defeat. The point of leverage is it's patron, which on paper isn't as committed to Jewish supremacism over increasing parts of the region.

Finally this exchange started with an American swing state voter saying he's not voting for a genocidal candidate, not an outsider.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
This whole issue is about making a foreign people's welfare the #1 priority over your own: Israelis.


That's fine. I don't think Harris voters are evil for supporting her either.

The flow here is usually the opposite, or at least it used to be: it's Dem voters haranging people (real or imagined) for not wanting to vote for Biden or Harris.
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I do not think US aid/support for Israel has any bearing on the day to day of anyone living in USA unless you have friends/family in the places affected.

Regarding the last bolded, it's also very different. The issues being pressed by the Dems are domestic in nature, and again policies that affect the day to day of every American. Nobody is stating you shouldn't vote Trump due to the fact that he tanked the Iran deal, or that he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, or that he drone struck Soleimani.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
It's wholly unrealistic and is just virtue signalling, to be honest.
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I assume you're aware that some of those people you're talking about are Americans, and they're being chastised for explaining why they won't vote for Harris.

Someone having different priorities than you is not virtue signalling, even if they're not Americans.
 
nimic said:
I assume you're aware that some of those people you're talking about are Americans, and they're being chastised for explaining why they won't vote for Harris.

Someone having different priorities than you is not virtue signalling, even if they're not Americans.
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Those are not the people I'm referring to.

I'm referring to those who are going around calling everyone genocide sympathizers.
 
SirAF said:
Exactly right. There has been plenty of elaboration in terms of how disastrous another Trump term would be for the US domestically - it sure as hell would not be good for the rest of the world either but Americans are the ones that would first and foremost suffer the biggest consequences. My main gripe is that foreign policy is being used as the main driver for not wanting to support Harris/Biden when the other option is NOT one IOTA better in terms of foreign policy, but would in turn significantly screw over the American people. That is why I refer to it as the "adult choice".

We all get it, the situation with Gaza is horrific, but abstaining from voting for Harris (for those "lucky" few in a position to influence the election) achieves feck all in relation to that situation. Talk about "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"
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Well said.

At lot of focus on Gaza and rightly so.

But let's not forget the suffering of the people in Ukraine.

Last night, i watched this incredible documentary, 20 Days in Mariupol....
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt24082438/
The pain that Russia have inflicted on the Ukrainians. It is just barbaric. Nor was there any justification.

What we do know about Trump, is that he will pull out of Ukraine faster than he pulled out of Stormy Daniels.

And where does that leave Ukraine? It could lead to European allies having to get further involved. It could mean that that Ukraine has to give up terratory, withouth the ability to join NATO. Or it could mean that Russia become further emboldened and take the whole country.
 
Superden said:
you have to vote for candidate A because they may be an evil shit, but candidate B is an even bigger evil shit, is not the best argument, i think.
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I think it’s actually a very good argument. I believe that’s the choice in many elections.
However, I can understand that some people have issues in regards to their conscience and abstain from voting. Not the choice I would make. But I get the thought behind it.
 
gaffs said:
I have been following this guys posts and threads on the 538 Reddit sub. Apparently the Dems need a 400k lead to feel confident.
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Yup, it's looking pretty decent so far. I'd be very interested in seeing similar stuff from the other swing states, especially MI and WI.
 
Eboue said:
He's right. They don't live in Detroit. They live in Milford and Rochester Hills. They hate the city.
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Do they hate the city?

I have been a couple of times in recent years and see a lot of gentrification. It looks no different to any other US City.

One would think that some of those rich people may even have investments within the city.

Even the Lion and Tigers are on the up. Not so much The Pistons!
 
Eboue said:
I am a registered voter in a crucial swing state and I'm not voting for genocide.
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That's your right and that's fine, however you'll have to accept that this means you are supporting a convicted criminal and are also supporting the restriction of the rights of women to choose amongst other things
 
gaffs said:
Do they hate the city?

I have been a couple of times in recent years and see a lot of gentrification. It looks no different to any other US City.

One would think that some of those rich people may even have investments within the city.

Even the Lion and Tigers are on the up. Not so much The Pistons!
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They 100% hate the city. Their idea of going to a Red Wings game is jump on I-75, pay $90 to park in a lot directly connected to the arena, take an elevator to the underground tunnel that gets them to the suite section and then back after the game. They never set foot on a sidewalk in Wayne County.
 
Red in STL said:
That's your right and that's fine, however you'll have to accept that this means you are supporting a convicted criminal and are also supporting the restriction of the rights of women to choose amongst other things
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He's not voting for trump.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
This is precisely the kind of stuff I'm complaining about.

Joe Biden has an incredibly long, extensive history of commitment to Israel. He has described himself as a Zionist. He had a friendship with Netanyahu spanning decades. He has said he loves Netanyahu. Loves him. This idea that he secretly disagrees with what's been happening is absurd.

It's what I mentioned before, people just refusing to see what's in front of them. Biden is a true believer in this stuff. He says so. The people around him say so. His actions say so. Why can't you believe it? In what world is a transactional person worse than a fanatic?
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Biden had a long history of support for Israel, no one is doubting that.

That doesn't mean Harris shares the same opinions.

You are tarring them both with the same brush.
 
RoadTrip said:
I think there’s a lot of hypothetical in this thread about why you could reasonably justify withholding your vote to ultimately sway the political position of a party. But to my mind, it isn’t practical. The world is incredibly polarised at the moment. As a theory it is true and makes sense. In reality, not voting for the lesser of two evils in this election might mean significant limitations on your democratic ability to drive change for decades. Thats the practical reality. You could say, there’s never a good time. And you’d be right. There’s no crystal ball that I have to purport to know how we break thus toxic political climate. But what I do know is that one needs to consider the practical reality of abstaining to vote, not just the theoretical aspiration of what it means.
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The only practical reality about abstention we know from this election is this: likely voters told pollsters they would abstain from voting for Joe Biden due to his age and diminished mental capabilities. This created enormous pressure on his campaign, which was cruising to certain defeat, which (partially) led to him dropping out. The nominee is now Kamala Harris, who has a better chance of winning than Joe Biden did.
 
SirAF said:
One of the most famous political scientists from Norway, the late Frank Aarebrot, had a well known saying that went something like this:



I quite like that.
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the late great hannibal lecter had a well known saying that went something like this

Must I denounce myself as a monster while you still refuse to see the one growing inside you?
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I quite like that
 
Eboue said:
They 100% hate the city. Their idea of going to a Red Wings game is jump on I-75, pay $90 to park in a lot directly connected to the arena, take an elevator to the underground tunnel that gets them to the suite section and then back after the game. They never set foot on a sidewalk in Wayne County.
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Dan Gilbert hates the city of Detroit so much that he invested $6billlion into it...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...rt-ford-buy-up-offices?embedded-checkout=true

But yeah, you are obviously more in tune with the suburban elites of Detroit.
 
gaffs said:
You are tarring them both with the same brush.
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That would require Harris to be completely silent on the matter. In fact she has promised unwavering and unequivocal support for Israel many times. Why would I not take her at her word? What about Harris' political career and background would suggest anything else?
 
Red in STL said:
That's your right and that's fine, however you'll have to accept that this means you are supporting a convicted criminal and are also supporting the restriction of the rights of women to choose amongst other things
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Why even carry on this argument?

People who vote or don't vote based on their principles are making a perfectly legitimate choice. Voting for the Dems is, like it or not, supporting their current foreign policy and that is genocide, I think people should be lauded for standing up to that. As far as I can tell anyone actually in the States making that choice isn't switching their vote to Trump.

As has been established in this thread the vast majority of US voters can not see beyond their own small horizons and will vote based on that. To find a few that think more widely and globally than that is a good thing. I'm not sure why going after anyones personal choice of voting or not is acceptable especially when it is based on opposition to as something as evil as Netanyahu's genocide.

On election night I will be praying for a Harris win, but if I was a registered voter in a swing state I have no idea what I would do, but good on Eboue and others like him for taking a stand, it must be a fecking depressing choice.
 
Eboue said:
the late great hannibal lecter had a well known saying that went something like this



I quite like that
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Very mature response, as always, Eboue. Good luck in the upcoming election, I sincerely hope that you do not end up regretting your stance.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
That would require Harris to be completely silent on the matter. In fact she has promised unwavering and unequivocal support for Israel many times. Why would I not take her at her word? What about Harris' political career and background would suggest anything else?
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Does "unwavering and unequivocal support for Israel" include calling for a two state solution?

When asked if she considered Bibi a reliable ally she said "I think, with all due respect, the better question is: do we have an important alliance between the American people and the Israeli people? And the answer to that question is yes,"

Is that "unwavering and unequivocal support for Israel"?

Is not attending Bibi's address to congress "unwavering and unequivocal support for Israel" ?

Trump on an independent Palestinian nation - "I'd have to see."
 
Anyway I'm up north right now (anyone from Michigan will know what I mean) and I passed 4 billboards that said "I'm a 2 time Trump voter and I'm voting for Harris" and "I voted Trump but I love democracy so I'm voting for Harris" and variations on that theme.

If you want to scold voters why don't you target the same ones the Harris campaign is targeting, the 14 people in the entire state who love Trump and love democracy instead of scolding the voters who her campaign doesn't care about, those of us who want the mass slaughter of Palestinians to end. Harris has made it very clear which votes she wants and it's not mine.
 
gaffs said:
Countering your nonsense that the richest people hate the city of Detroit, with you have backed up with absolutely nothing.
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Dan Gilbert is a billionaire who invests for a profit. If you want to saddle up and ride for the billionaire with a heart of gold you can try your luck in the Elon Musk thread.

Here's a fun little article about your idol. https://www.propublica.org/article/how-a-tax-break-to-help-the-poor-went-to-nba-owner-dan-gilbert

Quicken gave $750,000 to Trump’s inaugural fund. Gilbert has built a relationship with Ivanka Trump, who appeared at one of his Detroit buildings in 2017 for a panel discussion with him. And, last year, he watched the midterm election returns at the White House with President Donald Trump himself, who has called Gilbert “a great friend.”
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