Bernie/Beto
book it.
book it.
2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress
- Thread starter Raoul
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I think what that Sanders issue ultimately boils down to is saying that "a lot of white folks" who felt & acted based on racist logic aren't necessarily racist. That sort of belief pops up in most public discussions about all kinds of bigotry. In my experience people who claim this will often fill up the supposed "real motivation" with what they wish for (at least if they aren't just full-on apologists, which Sanders surely isn't).
So in this case the assumption is that many have just been "uncomfortable" with voting for a black candidate and "it will be a lot easier" for them in the future. (He didn't give specific reasons why he thinks so in that snippet.) Following that interpretation, the way to go is reaching out and convincing them. Sanders' clarifying tweet reinforces this conception imo, so I assume that's just his general outlook on the issue, and a key point of his politics.
On the exchange between @Sweet Square and @villain: I don't think the problem is that he isn't aware of racism or not strongly opposed to it, which is what Sweet Square concentrates on arguing against. But the problem may be how he understands it. I at least see a connection between the so-called gaffe and the basic reasoning in his subsequent tweet.
So in this case the assumption is that many have just been "uncomfortable" with voting for a black candidate and "it will be a lot easier" for them in the future. (He didn't give specific reasons why he thinks so in that snippet.) Following that interpretation, the way to go is reaching out and convincing them. Sanders' clarifying tweet reinforces this conception imo, so I assume that's just his general outlook on the issue, and a key point of his politics.
On the exchange between @Sweet Square and @villain: I don't think the problem is that he isn't aware of racism or not strongly opposed to it, which is what Sweet Square concentrates on arguing against. But the problem may be how he understands it. I at least see a connection between the so-called gaffe and the basic reasoning in his subsequent tweet.
Many people who voted for Obama voted for Trump.
I don't accept the racist argument.
Obama won Ohio and Florida twice.
Its policies and voting for someone they trust.
I don't accept the racist argument.
Obama won Ohio and Florida twice.
Its policies and voting for someone they trust.
I think key here is that Sanders himself said the people he talks about were uncomfortable with a black candidate per se. And draws a connection to a blatantly racist campaign.
I’d vote for them.
I don’t give a feck, I’m still voting for Bernie if he runs. His socio-economic policies are infinitely more important than tone deaf sound bites.
@Florida Man As of now, who would you rather vote for in the event that Bernie isn't running?
*unzips*
In order of potential candidates: Gillum, Beto, Newsom, Warren, any progressive I'm not aware of, any Democrat
Maybe I'm naive, but I see the president's role as someone who can represent us well on the world stage and be someone people can look to as a uniter who speaks to the people. Not someone who pushes policies through or be the boss of everything. Because for that, it's all about who's controlling the House and Senate. That goes a long way in defining a presidency.
Sanders has a long history of fighting against racial inequality, hasn't he? Even if he was tone deaf on some issues, that has to count for something
I think it’s due to the nature of the US. We often forget that it was an apartheid state half a century ago and in some sections of the country essentially still is. In that context, the classical socialist approach of solving the economic imbalance first and foremost can appear incredibly tone-deaf to people who regardless of economic status are always socially and judicially inferior to their white counterparts.
In that context, him ostensibly absolving the old whites who voted against Gillum/Abrams of being racists seem like a betrayal. Despite Clinton’s spotted history, the sentiment behind ‘basket of deplorables’ is more on the nose with what the PoC in America feel.
The thing is, whatever the truth of "deplorables", it's politically stupid. I've posted elsewhere about it, I'll just quote that:
It's about the fact that a lot of potential voters are extremely sensitive to being insulted in those terms, while calling Democrat voters ivory tower elites or welfare queens doesn't lead to the same effect. A white undecided voter would not classify himself as either a college elite or a welfare queen, no matter their actual reality, but would easily fit into "deplorable". OTOH, most professors and big city liberals and non-whites are mostly already democrat voters whom the gop will happily ignore.
Bernie's was even worse because it had the same effect on conservatives (see this very thread or twitter replies to him) while not being a clear condemnation, giving ammunition to libs as well.
I didn’t say it was good. At the time I thought that clunky term (repeated in several speeches/interviews over a few days) was focus group-tested to endear her with the activist left, turned out it didn’t work at all, which in hindsight may had more to do with the person saying it, not the sentiment, or vice versa.
The post above was just me giving my 2 cents on why Sanders’s rhetorics on race disappoint some sections of PoC. It could all be hogwash for all I know. For what it’s worth, already called it his ‘deplorable’ moment when this surfaced.
Ok Boredom and Berba, I have not read about this controversial Bernie's interview after the election. Can you link me to it?
I believe Sanders only got 25% of the african American vote in the democratic primaries, or something desperately short of the majority or even most of the votes.
For a guy who marched with Dr King, and definitely means well - the group he struggles to connect most with is African Americans and since that group has probably been the only group not to vote for the wrong candidate in the last two elections, they’ve definitely done their part, and will be pivotal to whoever ends up as the democratic nominee if they seriously want a chance at winning the election.
The question is, why? It’s hard to really put into words why I and seemingly so other black people aren't wholly supportive of Bernie, and phrases like ‘his policies will help black people’ and ‘when Bernie talks about economic issues he’s talking about race issues’ don’t help at all and are tone deaf.
Economic issues aren't race issues, unless you hold the belief that all or the majority of black people are also poor people - sure, the poverty line for black people in America is around 27%, and while that's too high a number it's not; all, a majority, or even most black people.
The underlying implication being ‘most black people are poor and need help and my policies will help you poor black people’, it’s patronising and out of touch, even though it means well to the ones who are struggling in poverty.
If you're black and living below the poverty line, then the odds are that it will take at least two generations and a lot of luck to get out of it, but that's not a problem that's exclusive to black people (which is what Trump recognised by galvanising the poor white people of America - many of whom became poor after the recession)
The black middle class are, I believe, the fastest growing socio-economic group in America, black business owners are also growing at an exponential rate, so while the starting position for black people in America obviously put them at a disadvantage due to decades of mistreatment - the future economic prospects for black people is actually quite positive, and comparatively - while the black middle class is expanding, the white middle class is decreasing - due to both economic & social & cultural reasons.
Also the statement completely ignores the fact that while black people are traditionally socially liberal, they are economically conservative - aren't particularly fond of the government, and aspire more towards entrepreneurship & scholarly careers, as opposed to just being employed, for employement-sake - and the constant rhetoric of 'providing jobs' for black people falls on deaf ears for that very reason.
We aspire to be doctors, lawyers, engineers and business owners, not jobsworths for a number of reasons, but most of them are founded in previous generations of black people being forced into doing undesirable jobs, and the types of employment I just listed weren't attainable due to things like segregation & discrimination. Therefore, parents raised their kids to aspire to be better than them - and those kids are now part of the American electorate so telling them they should get jobs won't inspire them, nor give hope for their kids.
This reminds me of what he said when Don Lemon asked what racial blind spot he has during the primaries, and he responded (paraphrasing) ‘When you’re white you don’t know what it’s like to live in a ghetto, you don’t know what it’s like to be poor’, sure - his intentions were that white people don't know what it’s like to live in the conditions that black people live in - but surely you can see just what a terrible take that is when you talk about your own racial blind spot.
This is compounded by the example you’ve posted about Ferguson. He starts off well and talks about the militarisation of the police, and ends with black people need to get more jobs???
Do you think that black people in Ferguson & in other areas watching the events unfold (given the wider racial context going on) at the time were concerned with the fact that their kids couldn’t find suitable employment?
The criticism is spot on and believing his position is the better one out of the two is not entirely surprising, but is exactly why black people didn’t vote for him, he just doesn't 'get' it.
I don't know why, marching with Dr King should have taught him better, but perhaps living with 99% white people in Vermont means there's a disconnect of what it is black people actually want. If I remember correctly, he didn't have any prominent black staffers on his team during the primaries - i'm happy to be proven wrong, I just remember being confused at the fact that Hillary at least had PoC as part of her inner circle - and when you're trying to get PoC votes - in the absence of actually being PoC, it's advisable that you have PoC literally by your side to help provide contextual meaning to things that are difficult to understand if you aren't PoC.
Also, on the topic of marching with Dr King; while admirable - doesn't mean he's incapable of being ignorant on topics of race or civil rights - I mean, at the time you were either on the side that black people deserved a right to equality, a right to vote, and not to be segregated - or they didn't deserve those things.
It's basically the minimum requirement and doesn't mean you are on a higher level of civil rights, or absolved from future ignorance on the topic of racism - especially for someone as left as Bernie.
That leads me on to the reason why I’m critical on the tribalism aspect. The very implication that being someone who supports equality, and aligns with issues of PoC - those issues & beliefs should go above and beyond your support of Sanders, right? Blind support is something that Trump supporters do, and it's not something Bernie supporters should do purely because if you support Bernie, you support social liberalism - and supporting social liberalism means that PoC and other minorities should be given equality, and you don't sympathise with racists - and despite Bernie doing this multiple times, Bernie supporters don't call him out on it, due to their blind allegiance of him first, and their alignment to social liberalism, second.
Even now, I'm sure you still see nothing wrong with what he said because I don't think you believe he's capable of being wrong on issues of race, because like you said - his economic policies are racial issues, and since you believe in his economic position so strongly, he's also right when it comes to race issues - plus he marched with Dr King, so he obviously knows his stuff when it comes to race.
What's most problematic about his statement is that he's saying that race-based discomfort is not racist. Yes he's calling out the fact that some Republican candidates ran racist campaigns - great, we knew that. What he's not doing is calling the people who still voted for those candidates, racist. He didn't do it in the interview, and he didn't do it in his statement - he just reaffirmed the fact that some republicans are racist.
He did the same after saying that people who support Trump weren't racist.
Let's be clear, if you vote for a person who is so openly brazen about being racist - then you are either racist yourself, or you are comfortable supporting racism. So by accommodating those people and not calling them out, but actually sympathising with them - there can't be any surprise that he struggles to truly unify the black vote.
He has a long list of incidents and statements he's made that just show that he just truly doesn't 'get' it.
His intentions are in the right place but whether it's stubbornness or unwillingness, he truly seems blissfully unaware that he's missing the point.
I don't think Bernie has what it takes to get black people to vote for him, and had he run in one of the states that he's heavily criticising - where he needed a large amount of black people to vote for him in order to win, I fail to see what he's done to show that he would've done any better than those candidates & I certainly don't think he would've managed to get 97% of black women to vote for him like Beto did.
I'm happy to see polls that show his support broken down by race, the last time I saw his approval rate was around 65% of all Non-Whites, it didn't break it down further but I suppose that data would be hard to come by at this stage, but I believe he's always struggled to get the black vote - and the black vote, and the poor white vote will be integral to beating Trump, particularly in the South & Mid West.
This is weird. Most people who move to Texas move into Austin/Houston and Dallas. Austin is liberal, has a large university population. Houston city has a liberal mayor as well plus large universities and the world's largest medical research center. I don't know much about Dallas.
This is a good summary, I’m not implying he’s racist or doesn’t understand racism he’s just tone deaf when he has to talk about racism and has been for a while.
I don’t know if this is directly related, but there has been a surge of conservatives moving from the west coast to Texas (and other traditionally red states). I remember reading an article about a guy basically running a moving company for conservatives.
Great post.
There’s been loads of people moving in for the booming oilfield and related construction/manufacturing jobs that entails. Those will be red votes.
So much scrutiny over something Sanders said essentially unintentionally. Meanwhile Trump says whatever he wants, all the time.
If you voted against Gillum and Abrams because they are black, you are a racist. If he wasn't brave enough to say it, he shouldn't have brought it up.
I don't see the need for arguments.
I don't see the need for arguments.
thats a lot of words and all but his favorability / unafavorability among blacks is 77 / 12
http://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-con...-banners_Registered-Voters_Current-Events.pdf
2017, I don't doubt him having higher favourability then particularly as there weren't many alternatives known to the public.
Earlier in the month his favourability amongst all Non-whites was 65, I think I said that yesterday, which is good but isn't a resounding endorsement.
I haven't seen a more recent poll that breaks down by race since then.
Overall though, i'm saying is, he didn't win the black vote against Hillary, and lost pretty badly - and now that we have the likes of O'Rouke, I have doubts that he would still hold as high favourability given that there more alternatives now. 97% of black women & ~84% of black men is a very strong endorsement.
We'll see when the nominations become more clear.
I wrote a lot of words but I provided wider context about his economic policies & why they shouldn't be aligned with race, and kinda covered what you and Adex spoke about yesterday - i'm open for any critiques you may have.
IF a president wanted to change the way the voting system works is that something that is within his power?
I think not, that's a state or constitutional level thing.
The constitution needs to be changed. Count it impossible .
Maine did it via referendum, twice, over the governor's veto. They implemented ranked-choice, I think.
Firstly no one knew who Sanders was literally no one and he was running against the most well known politician in the US. Secondly the more black americans have seen of Sanders the more they like him as @Eboue post shows.
And lastly I've already mentioned twice but again American has destroyed any class and anti imperialist politics so that leaves nothing but signifiers for people to relate to. In the same way poor whites can vote for a billionaire who has nothing but contempt for them due to signifiers such as racism, television etc black voters can also vote for a multi millionaire who celebrated destroying a African country and put forward racist policies that targeted black men because of signifiers.
The alternative is that black voters knew all of Clinton stances and history and were happy to vote for imperialist and racists policies(Although not happy enough to turn out on voting day of the election).
Most black americans are working class(They have to sell their labour to earn a living), the economic policy put forward by Sanders will benefit their lives on multiple levels. And as for this argument being out of touch, well meet the patronising
DR. Martin Lurther King
And
Adolph Reed Jr
The future for the black middle class and business owners might be positive but who are they exploiting = black workers and Bernie's policies such as a minimum wage will help who = black workers.
Fred Hampton
Polling show this not to be the case, in fact it's the complete opposite(Especially with young black americans)
Er yes of course, the economy is second(Health care is first)in importance to black americans(Again more polling).
Martin Luther King
Did King not get it ? The argument Bernie is making is the mainstream left/socialist view of fighting racism. The reason I think this argument is correct and important is because King was correct creating jobs are costly and gives people actually material power and stake in the economy.
As I've shown earlier in the post Bernie has not just learned from Dr. King he's down right stealing his ideas. And again your talking about PoC as a group who have a united view which just isn't true as the middle class business owners vs black workers examples shows but even if we do say there is a united black american view at least with the polling it's the complete opposit to what you've say it is.
It isn't blind support, there are plenty of issue I disagree with Bernie on - he's view of sex workers(He doesn't view them as workers), he's lack of policy on the ownership of the workplace etc. But his politics of class is why I still support him. I'm a socialist so I actually don't support social liberalism, I actually think its pretty awful and can never live up to the promises it makes because of it's connection to private property.
I want a society that ends the economic and social systems of race, class, gender patriarchy and makes poverty impossible. And the best way of that happening(In my view)is well......''All workers of the world unite all you have to lose is your chains'' Bernie politics are a tiny tiny step in this direction so he gets my critical support.
Agree but this why I think it's a gaff. But why stop at calling out only brazen racists. Let's say your racist and imperialist if you vote for Clinton or Obama. In fact let's say the system it self is racist and needs to be abolished and replaced.
Again to just go on polling this isn't true. Bernie or Binden in polling have the best chance of beating Trump.
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You can't say no one knew who Sanders was, that's an insult to Bernie - his appeal took over social media from 2015 onwards, he galvanised the youth spectacularly - and yes he took on the most well known politician in Clinton, but like you say - she has a spotted history when it comes to black issues. Yet, despite Bernie putting forward policies that would help the poorest of the demographic - he still didn't connect with the black vote. 75/25 split is bad and can't be glossed over. The majority of black people didn’t choose him when a choice, plus he failed to connect with older black voters, who are more likely to vote than the youth.
In Eboue's post, the approval rating for Hillary was 1% lower than Sanders, 1 year on from her dramatic fall from grace. Biden polls consistently higher too - all that says to me is that he's recognised & appreciated yes, but not resoundingly supported - and in 2017, when he was the main figurehead for left-wing issues, he was still there or thereabouts with the others. No clear lead, no clear relationship with black voters specifically.
Which is why I said it would be interesting to see what that data looks like in a few months - or however frequently they're released, when he’s polled against other democratic nominees.
I point to someone like Beto as an example of connecting with the black voters. Again 97% & 84% are seriously impressive. Bernie still relies on his economic theories being enough to inspire black voters, and it won't - hence why when talking about a topic like Ferguson he still defaults to jobs & economy.
Clinton in comparison when she was asked the same question about racial blind spotting - she said that as a white person she'll never understand what it's like to have 'the talk' with her kids, as a white woman she doesn't live with the fear that her kids could be senselessly targeted because of the colour of their skin.
That's what it means to identify with racial issues, and contextualise it to the very people it affects - not simply revert to jobs & economic policies as being a blanket fix, and then imply that all black people are poor or living in the ghetto, and he doesn't understand what that's like because he's white. It’s so tone deaf, he didn’t say anything particularly wrong but that isn’t what blacks people want to hear when you’re asked about racial issues.
How are you defining working class, if you consider most Black Americans as working class?
I think that's important, most people have to sell their labour to earn a living - don’t they?
I think it's good for us to establish what we both define as working class, middle class etc.
I can show you how I came to my numbers;
https://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf
That takes into consideration the years 1968-2017, and I’m usually basically median income earned.
36% of households live in poverty/Working class (Under $15 – $35K annual income), 43% of households are between $35K to $100K.
16% are between $100K and $200K and 4% are above $200K annual income levels as of 2009.
After 2009, the upper interval for which the Census calculated the median income as $250,000, being that is the considered upper class income.
So I'm assuming Middle Class to be above $35K and below $100K annual income, which is 43% of American Households.
Now when broken down by race, you have approximately 40% with earnings between $35K – $100K annually, which is a safe estimate for the middle class.
If you break that out further across all class structures approximately 21% of Black Americans live in Poverty, 25% Working Class/Poverty, 40% are Middle Class, 12% upper middle class, and 3% upper class.
That means 55% of black Americans, aka the majority, earn more than $35k, that barrier - according to the Census - is entry to middle class and up.
Compared with White Americans, 11% live in Poverty, 19% in Working Class/Poverty, 42% are Middle Class, 21% Upper Middle Class, and 7% Upper Class.
Now that's how I would come to the conclusion of the class breakdowns, I'm using the Census because I figured that's the most accurate data and it's up to date, plus income is a good barometer of class.
I think there have been attempts in the past to include things like education level as a measure for measuring class - but in the internet age, a degree isn't needed to improve your economic status, and so shouldn't be an identifier as to whether you are working class or not.
I'm interested to see how you've come to the conclusion that most black Americans are working class though.
I'm not sure why you're quoting MLK or Fred Hampton, of course Black Americans were at a severe economic disadvantage in the 60s, like I pointed out - most of the jobs they could get were undesirable and not necessarily careers. MLK & Fred Hampton were implicit in trying to free, uplift and motivate black people who had to contend with segregation, KKK, no access to education or easy transport etc.
It's a completely different perspective now - economically, socially a lot of issues remain the same.
Times have moved on, and the economic mobility of black people has increased drastically since then, and again like I said talking about jobs isn't going to inspire black people because we grew up with grandparents and parents who grew up in in the 40's-80s and were raised with the idea that we need to find a stable career so we can do better than our parents/grandparents did in order to succeed in life. Almost every black person you ever meet will tell you a similar story.
So yes, creating a stable economy that provides jobs is important, and no doubt black people would mark jobs as a priority when asked to poll - but that isn't going to inspire, and it doesn’t speak to the burgeoning growth of the black middle class.
Guaranteed income, jobs policies, better public housing are all great policies - but they shouldn't be marketed as black policies, this is my point. If you market them as black policies then you're implying that black people are only poor and in need, then you risk alienating the poor white & other PoC voters too, as well as patronise the majority of black people who aren’t poor.
And if, when asked about racism you can only point to economic policy, then it shows a lack of understanding of the problems that black voters care about beyond economics.
Well since black business owners are rapidly growing, and the black middle class is almost as big as the black working class - that might explain a lot regarding the disconnect.
You're showing a lot of polls but what i'm trying to express isn't something that can explained by polls, and can't be easily expressed in words. Kinda like in football, statistics don't show the whole picture and can be misconstrued to paint things differently depending on the context.
Sure, if you poll black people and give them a list of choices of issues, they'll answer based on the pre-determined criteria - and from that data you can then determine that black people care most about the economy then education, then healthcare etc.
However if you actually speak to black people on a regular basis you'll have a much better understanding of what they really care about - and thats one of the criticisms of Bernie that i'm trying to convey to you. In order to really galvanise black voters he has to see black people as more than just being poor.
Poll data isn't the end-all, especially when you're discussing emotive topics like race.
And again, this isn't limited to black people, which was highlighted and acted upon by the Trump campaign. If Trump’s camp can recognise the importance of tailoring your campaign depending on the target socio-economic group when the situation calls upon it, there really shouldn’t be any reason why Bernie can’t.
People aren't data points, and when you are trying to canvass votes of a group of people, using a blanket approach will fall on deaf ears and show a lack of empathy.
Highlighted again by Bernie's response to Ferguson ending in creating jobs, because it makes sense to him that economic disparity is the number one priority for african americans who have been polled, therefore he should campaign hard on creating jobs for african americans.
However, in that moment, african americans care more about their sons, fathers, friends, mothers, sisters etc being the victim of police brutality - and ending up like Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, Sandra Bland, Mike Brown etc. They care more about being policed 4x as much, being charged and convicted 3x as much, and not being able to afford bond so they have to sit in prison and wait to be freed again.
In that moment, on that question - that is what they care about, and a politician as experienced as Bernie should be able to recognise that, emphasise with that and be reactive of that fact.
Obama was, Hillary adjusted and got better, Bernie I haven't seen it. From what I can see Beto is, and he's very good at it and done so in a short amount of time.
What this video highlighted to me was 2 things
1 - Beto has listened to black women, he highlighted the issues that are specific to black women and understood why they were important and the impact it has. He could've brought in economy, but instead he spoke to healthcare, he spoke to family, kids, education - things that can speak to each individual black woman, not assumed that black women are poor and struggling, or only focused on economic parity.
2 - He picked up on the small nuances such as not just recognising the need for better quality of education but 'teachers that look like their students' these are specific issues that are prominent for black people, and isn't something that can be picked up by a poll. These are small nuances that show that a politician ‘gets’ what the black voters are looking for.
Again - Trump knows what his base wants and appeals directly to that, whoever the democratic nominee is needs to understand and be able to pull this off for such a broad spectrum of groups of people.
In that small clip Beto sounds much more emphatic & knowledgeable, and isn't treating black women as an economic checkbox, nor is he patronising. What can be done for black women, will be different to what can be done for black men, which will be different to what can be done for poor white men and women, etc - and a blanket commitment to increase all of these groups' economic potential doesn't address that at it's core.
Again, I'm not sure why you're trying to compare the economics of the 1960's to now, as the Census shows the economic potential of black americans is very much on the up, and as the population continues to diversify, and more black people go to college, and therefore are more likely to get better jobs - it's only going to increase further.
So yes - King was right at the time, but now - most black people aren't poor, despite the stereotypes. The economic needs of black people have shifted with time, not all of us are struggling in poverty, the majority of us actively are not.
Bernie views class as being more important than race - that's fine, but not many black people would agree. Which is why, again I say it’s inportant to understand the needs of each group of people you are wanting to vote for you.
Race is often the leading priority for black people, if you appear to not care about racism, are openly racist, support racists etc then you'll struggle to get support from the majority of black people.
Racial identity is above all else first specifically for black people more than any other racial group.
In Eboue's post, the approval rating for Hillary was 1% lower than Sanders, 1 year on from her dramatic fall from grace. Biden polls consistently higher too - all that says to me is that he's recognised & appreciated yes, but not resoundingly supported - and in 2017, when he was the main figurehead for left-wing issues, he was still there or thereabouts with the others. No clear lead, no clear relationship with black voters specifically.
Which is why I said it would be interesting to see what that data looks like in a few months - or however frequently they're released, when he’s polled against other democratic nominees.
I point to someone like Beto as an example of connecting with the black voters. Again 97% & 84% are seriously impressive. Bernie still relies on his economic theories being enough to inspire black voters, and it won't - hence why when talking about a topic like Ferguson he still defaults to jobs & economy.
Clinton in comparison when she was asked the same question about racial blind spotting - she said that as a white person she'll never understand what it's like to have 'the talk' with her kids, as a white woman she doesn't live with the fear that her kids could be senselessly targeted because of the colour of their skin.
That's what it means to identify with racial issues, and contextualise it to the very people it affects - not simply revert to jobs & economic policies as being a blanket fix, and then imply that all black people are poor or living in the ghetto, and he doesn't understand what that's like because he's white. It’s so tone deaf, he didn’t say anything particularly wrong but that isn’t what blacks people want to hear when you’re asked about racial issues.
How are you defining working class, if you consider most Black Americans as working class?
I think that's important, most people have to sell their labour to earn a living - don’t they?
I think it's good for us to establish what we both define as working class, middle class etc.
I can show you how I came to my numbers;
https://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf
That takes into consideration the years 1968-2017, and I’m usually basically median income earned.
36% of households live in poverty/Working class (Under $15 – $35K annual income), 43% of households are between $35K to $100K.
16% are between $100K and $200K and 4% are above $200K annual income levels as of 2009.
After 2009, the upper interval for which the Census calculated the median income as $250,000, being that is the considered upper class income.
So I'm assuming Middle Class to be above $35K and below $100K annual income, which is 43% of American Households.
Now when broken down by race, you have approximately 40% with earnings between $35K – $100K annually, which is a safe estimate for the middle class.
If you break that out further across all class structures approximately 21% of Black Americans live in Poverty, 25% Working Class/Poverty, 40% are Middle Class, 12% upper middle class, and 3% upper class.
That means 55% of black Americans, aka the majority, earn more than $35k, that barrier - according to the Census - is entry to middle class and up.
Compared with White Americans, 11% live in Poverty, 19% in Working Class/Poverty, 42% are Middle Class, 21% Upper Middle Class, and 7% Upper Class.
Now that's how I would come to the conclusion of the class breakdowns, I'm using the Census because I figured that's the most accurate data and it's up to date, plus income is a good barometer of class.
I think there have been attempts in the past to include things like education level as a measure for measuring class - but in the internet age, a degree isn't needed to improve your economic status, and so shouldn't be an identifier as to whether you are working class or not.
I'm interested to see how you've come to the conclusion that most black Americans are working class though.
I'm not sure why you're quoting MLK or Fred Hampton, of course Black Americans were at a severe economic disadvantage in the 60s, like I pointed out - most of the jobs they could get were undesirable and not necessarily careers. MLK & Fred Hampton were implicit in trying to free, uplift and motivate black people who had to contend with segregation, KKK, no access to education or easy transport etc.
It's a completely different perspective now - economically, socially a lot of issues remain the same.
Times have moved on, and the economic mobility of black people has increased drastically since then, and again like I said talking about jobs isn't going to inspire black people because we grew up with grandparents and parents who grew up in in the 40's-80s and were raised with the idea that we need to find a stable career so we can do better than our parents/grandparents did in order to succeed in life. Almost every black person you ever meet will tell you a similar story.
So yes, creating a stable economy that provides jobs is important, and no doubt black people would mark jobs as a priority when asked to poll - but that isn't going to inspire, and it doesn’t speak to the burgeoning growth of the black middle class.
Guaranteed income, jobs policies, better public housing are all great policies - but they shouldn't be marketed as black policies, this is my point. If you market them as black policies then you're implying that black people are only poor and in need, then you risk alienating the poor white & other PoC voters too, as well as patronise the majority of black people who aren’t poor.
And if, when asked about racism you can only point to economic policy, then it shows a lack of understanding of the problems that black voters care about beyond economics.
Well since black business owners are rapidly growing, and the black middle class is almost as big as the black working class - that might explain a lot regarding the disconnect.
You're showing a lot of polls but what i'm trying to express isn't something that can explained by polls, and can't be easily expressed in words. Kinda like in football, statistics don't show the whole picture and can be misconstrued to paint things differently depending on the context.
Sure, if you poll black people and give them a list of choices of issues, they'll answer based on the pre-determined criteria - and from that data you can then determine that black people care most about the economy then education, then healthcare etc.
However if you actually speak to black people on a regular basis you'll have a much better understanding of what they really care about - and thats one of the criticisms of Bernie that i'm trying to convey to you. In order to really galvanise black voters he has to see black people as more than just being poor.
Poll data isn't the end-all, especially when you're discussing emotive topics like race.
And again, this isn't limited to black people, which was highlighted and acted upon by the Trump campaign. If Trump’s camp can recognise the importance of tailoring your campaign depending on the target socio-economic group when the situation calls upon it, there really shouldn’t be any reason why Bernie can’t.
People aren't data points, and when you are trying to canvass votes of a group of people, using a blanket approach will fall on deaf ears and show a lack of empathy.
Highlighted again by Bernie's response to Ferguson ending in creating jobs, because it makes sense to him that economic disparity is the number one priority for african americans who have been polled, therefore he should campaign hard on creating jobs for african americans.
However, in that moment, african americans care more about their sons, fathers, friends, mothers, sisters etc being the victim of police brutality - and ending up like Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, Sandra Bland, Mike Brown etc. They care more about being policed 4x as much, being charged and convicted 3x as much, and not being able to afford bond so they have to sit in prison and wait to be freed again.
In that moment, on that question - that is what they care about, and a politician as experienced as Bernie should be able to recognise that, emphasise with that and be reactive of that fact.
Obama was, Hillary adjusted and got better, Bernie I haven't seen it. From what I can see Beto is, and he's very good at it and done so in a short amount of time.
What this video highlighted to me was 2 things
1 - Beto has listened to black women, he highlighted the issues that are specific to black women and understood why they were important and the impact it has. He could've brought in economy, but instead he spoke to healthcare, he spoke to family, kids, education - things that can speak to each individual black woman, not assumed that black women are poor and struggling, or only focused on economic parity.
2 - He picked up on the small nuances such as not just recognising the need for better quality of education but 'teachers that look like their students' these are specific issues that are prominent for black people, and isn't something that can be picked up by a poll. These are small nuances that show that a politician ‘gets’ what the black voters are looking for.
Again - Trump knows what his base wants and appeals directly to that, whoever the democratic nominee is needs to understand and be able to pull this off for such a broad spectrum of groups of people.
In that small clip Beto sounds much more emphatic & knowledgeable, and isn't treating black women as an economic checkbox, nor is he patronising. What can be done for black women, will be different to what can be done for black men, which will be different to what can be done for poor white men and women, etc - and a blanket commitment to increase all of these groups' economic potential doesn't address that at it's core.
Again, I'm not sure why you're trying to compare the economics of the 1960's to now, as the Census shows the economic potential of black americans is very much on the up, and as the population continues to diversify, and more black people go to college, and therefore are more likely to get better jobs - it's only going to increase further.
So yes - King was right at the time, but now - most black people aren't poor, despite the stereotypes. The economic needs of black people have shifted with time, not all of us are struggling in poverty, the majority of us actively are not.
Bernie views class as being more important than race - that's fine, but not many black people would agree. Which is why, again I say it’s inportant to understand the needs of each group of people you are wanting to vote for you.
Race is often the leading priority for black people, if you appear to not care about racism, are openly racist, support racists etc then you'll struggle to get support from the majority of black people.
Racial identity is above all else first specifically for black people more than any other racial group.
These long posts are boring, essentially what I’m saying is that Bernie has a history of being tone deaf on racial issues.
Sympathising with racists may be nothing more than a mistake to you, but to black voters it’s more than that - especially when it’s not the first time you’ve done it, and even more so with a racist president in power.
I’ve explained it in a long post in the spoiler, but frankly, it’s rosè o clock for me.
Hymietown is probably a better explanation, along with other historical things.
The problem we have is that you think class is a certain income number and I view it as how you relate to capitalism.
And how do you organise all these different groups of people with all different interests ? By appealing to a common material reality - e.g. how they relate to the economy - class politics.
Yeah villain this is pointless, if I'm giving you evidence on the issues black american voters say they care most about and your dismissal is well the people I talk to don't say this, then lets just end the conversation.
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But you haven’t defined how you measure class.
You said most black Americans are working class, based on what? How exactly do you define class based on how you relate to capitalism?
That’s kinda the point of politics to be able to reach different groups with different interests and be able to unify them with your beliefs. You won’t achieve that with blanket statements that lack nuance or contextual understanding.
And yeah if you can’t see the issue with Bernie sympathising with racists, being tone deaf when it came to Ferguson, and implying that black people are poor and need economic uplifting when asked about his own racial blind spots - we won’t get anywhere.
I look forward to seeing how he gets on when hes faced with similar lines of questioning during his bid for nomination. Hopefully he would’ve learned from his mistakes.
I've said this already in my other posts.
You posted a Beto video(Who seems like a great guy)but how was that any different to Bernie in 2016 ?
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018...ent-to-mississippi.html?gtm=bottom>m=bottom
And as for these being blanket statements. Adolph Reed Jr quote from my older post.
These are concrete policies that will material benefit the american working class which includes the black american working class.
I see the issue with the recent mistake he made but your wrong on ferguson and that somehow it is patronising to black workers to give them a chance to vote on economic uplifting e.g a $15 minimum wage is.
Lastly I will just offer this great piece by Briahna Joy Gray
Beware The Race Reductionist
https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/
And this as well.
I guess we can somewhat agree on this.
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Bernie lost the black vote because Hillary used John Lewis to attack Bernie and question his fight for Civil Rights.
I hope he had some sleepless nights after Trump won.
I hope he had some sleepless nights after Trump won.
Why is it so difficult to admit that it is possible Bernie does not get the racial issues in their entirety? This so called gaffe was more of a case that he spoke his mind without pre-scripted statements. No PR person would have OK-ed that .
someone who fought for Civil Rights and was arrested in Chicago?
He certainly understands even if he miss spoke.
Oprah will not win the candidacy herself, but she can be a force for a Dem win if used properly. Also the next candidate should not be from NY or California. Someone from Midwest/Rust Belt should be the candidates.
Brown and Klobuchar are smarter picks than Newsom and Gillibrand. Sanders, Oprah and Biden should be advertised for prominent positions even before the elections.
Beto is an odd one but I think he should wait for the 2024 minimum. He certainly is a future candidate....just not now.
Brown and Klobuchar are smarter picks than Newsom and Gillibrand. Sanders, Oprah and Biden should be advertised for prominent positions even before the elections.
Beto is an odd one but I think he should wait for the 2024 minimum. He certainly is a future candidate....just not now.
Brown is a Progressive.
Klobachar is not. Far from it. I voted for her even so.
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