Wonder what Sanders thinks about John James not winning Michigan?
2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress
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Wonder what Sanders thinks about John James not winning Michigan?
Voting is really complex.
The twitter thread that whites wont vote for something that will help non-whites even if it helps them: there's research proving it, and some showing he opposite. Many progressive Democrats lost in red districts, but minimum wage referenda have passed in the most Republican states - and these will surely help non-white people (disproportionately!)
The old debate about Trump's base - it's hard to imagine people who are comfortable with Trump and his party not being racist or sexist to some degree, yet a good number of them voted for Obama, twice in some cases.
Florida - rejected Gillum in favour of a candidate who had racist robocalls, but overwhelmingly voted to restore voting rights to ex-felons.
I think there's a lot of inertia and tribalism in the way people vote that would explain some of these results. They can't stomach voting for a Dem but they can vote for a good policy sometimes.
And so I don't think any one narrative (race, economic issues, "anxiety", gender) can explain any vote fully, all probably play a part.
About Bernie - the reason I want him to be the nominee is because (in order)
He can probably win an election vs Trump. The path is through the Midwest and he has some appeal there.
He's by far the least interventionist on foreign policy, and constantly links foreign policy to both global authoritarianism and climate change.
His policies will help almost all people if even very few are implemented - healthcare, college, criminal justice reform.
His policies will create loyal voters (like social security did for decades).
He has a very consistent policy/voting record on most things, probably because he relies on small donations.
Newsom / O’Rourke 2020...?
Brown/whoever 2020.
A man who won by 7 in a night when every other Dems lost in a Midwest state Trump won by 13 won’t lose MI/WI/PA.
Bernie / brown
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2002343799820614&id=124955570892789
Bernie has addressed it on Facebook
Bernie has addressed it on Facebook
Racial justice is his blind spot, unfortunately. It was in 2016, when he was being berated by some for pulling out the "I marched with MLK" card. And that is (partly) what burnt him in the Democratic primaries in places like the South. Especially when BLM had national prominence due to the ramp in cop killings at that time. Hillary for all her flaws, eventually embraced the movement, and apologized for the "super-predators" comments she made years ago. I don't think he did that with the same fervor.
He thinks a rising tide lifts all boats, so focusing on economic equality will take care of racism and prejudice. It actually doesn't. To his credit, since the 2016 election he has updated his foreign policy platform to respectable levels, so hopefully the penny drops. Maybe he's hedging enough to get into the White House and then tackle prejudice head-on. However if he goes against a strong candidate in the primaries who is not afraid to call racists out, then he'll have to change course, fast.
There is some truth to the idea that by going all out, and correctly blaming the losses in FL, GA and TX on different layers and shades of racism, he would probably alienate people who shy away from policies aimed at correcting decades of racism, but otherwise want him for his other policies. But those people aren't misunderstood, or helpless sojourners in their land, who just want jobs. feck that. They're racist. And it's a serious problem if saying that unequivocally in 2018 turns people off.
Wait, what's wrong with his actions in 2016 on this topic?
They voted for an exceptional black candidate, and followed that by voting for a mediocre white candidate. That's not proof they're not racist. Racism has many different layers and forms.
I don't think his was a sin of commission, more of omission. I don't think he, in 2016, fully understood the race problem, and I think he felt his economic platform was sufficient. He came across as tone-deaf on the issue as well.
I can understand that. But I recall him stepping aside for BLM at one of his events and Hillary scolding a BLM activist. I accept that I probably dont have the full story so please enlighten me.
You're correct on both counts. Both candidates were slow to embrace racial justice platforms (Hillary seemed more contrived in doing it to be honest), but with Hillary's head start among African Americans in 2016, Bernie would have benefited from pivoting fast towards it.
Bernie more than any other US politicians has the best anti racist politics. The only reason some don't think this is because the US has killed off any idea of class and anti imperialism. Americans can't view their own society as class formations and they can't look outside their own border.
Which is why a multi millionaire old white women who has spent her career killing people with brown skin abroad and locking black american men up in jail can overall win the american black vote and it's also why the most beloved president by black americans(And white liberals which should always be a warning sign)spent most of his time destroying a African country, drone bombing brown children at weddings and cutting black americans wealth by 50%.
Which is why a multi millionaire old white women who has spent her career killing people with brown skin abroad and locking black american men up in jail can overall win the american black vote and it's also why the most beloved president by black americans(And white liberals which should always be a warning sign)spent most of his time destroying a African country, drone bombing brown children at weddings and cutting black americans wealth by 50%.
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It won't solve racism and prejudice, especially in America, but I do think a focus on economic improvement can have a huge impact - when people aren't doing well economically those they perceive as being different (immigrants primarily, but not exclusively) will often be one of the first groups they blame. Similarly increased economic equality for black Americans would help lift many of them out of poverty and would therefore arguably be the most tangible improvement many would like to see under any hypothetical President.
Ok, bully for you. I never said I'm the only one in the mess. You asked me a question and I answered it.
There’s a lot to unpack here tbh, but I don’t think it’s worth really getting into at this point in the game.
Basically - Trumps base are no less racist now than they were before, and voting for Obama doesn’t negate that fact.
Also I agree with what adex said on the white mediocrity of Trump and black perfection of Obama (purely from a profile on their personal lives and suitability for the role)
They won’t vote for Dem because in their mind, voting Dems helps people who don’t look like them, and like you said - tribalism.
I don’t really have much to say about Bernie’s suitability for the nomination until all candidates have put themselves forward. But I definitely don’t agree that he’s the only one who’s policies will help the poor & PoC’s and I haven’t seen anything to suggest he can beat Trump.
Having read BLM and other activists talk about their first hand experience with him in 2016, I wonder if he really ‘gets’ it.
He certainly says all the right things when given the opportunity - his Facebook clarification/apology highlights this further, but at this point he’s one of the most experienced politicians out there, that line of questioning shouldn’t slip him up.
I think my first glimpse of bernie biased me a lot about the racism thing.
Literally the first time I heard him speak he was reciting the stats about disparate sentencing by race for marijuana offences. So I kindof assumed he knows what he's doing.
Literally the first time I heard him speak he was reciting the stats about disparate sentencing by race for marijuana offences. So I kindof assumed he knows what he's doing.
I understand the outrage over what he said but I thought it was obviously semantics. His actions speak loud enough for me.
Here's the audio
People losing their shit over nothing.
People losing their shit over nothing.
He did for sure in the beginning, but since 2015/6 he has said and done a lot of questionable things that deserve criticism.
I guess that’s why I’m kinda over this whole thing, it’s not the first, second, or third time he’s been tone deaf about race - specifically to do with black people in the last 3 years alone.
Maybe that’s why I struggle to really support him these days, whereas previously I was on the Bernie train.
Over what then ? At worse it's a bit of a gaff but people are literally questioning Bernie views on racism and wither he should run at all(This is the only guy who has any chance of promoting anti racism/anti imperialism at the presidential level and people are again losing their shit over a ''gaff'').Over nothing?
Okay lol
At worse it’s a bit of a gaff?
I’m not going to get in a back and forth over it, and it’s not my job for you to try to understand. You probably won’t, and like most of my interactions with hardcore Bernie supoorters, he does no wrong so there’s little point.
I’m sure he’ll be trawling for the black vote when the time comes and I wouldn’t be surprised if he struggles to get it.
Alright you don't have a answer fair enough.
No, I do.It’s just ironic that for someone who supposedly supports the issues that Bernie puts forth - equality, support for minorities, progressive policies etc
When it comes to any criticism of Bernie, all of that goes out the window
All it says is that you support Bernie and are just as tribal as the other collectives, if you really supported the policies you would’ve taken the time out to listen to the voices of the minorities who are speaking out about this. But really you just care about saving face for Bernie.
But like I said, he can do no wrong to you
The internet is free
And it’s not my job to make you understand anything.
Green Party ticket?
It’s just ironic that for someone who supposedly supports the issues that Bernie puts forth - equality, support for minorities, progressive policies etc
When it comes to any criticism of Bernie, all of that goes out the window
All it says is that you support Bernie and are just as tribal as the other collectives, if you really supported the policies you would’ve taken the time out to listen to the voices of the minorities who are speaking out about this. But really you just care about saving face for Bernie.
But like I said, he can do no wrong to you
The internet is free
And it’s not my job to make you understand anything.
Could you possibly be any more condescending?
If you don't want to answer his question, don't. But clearly you do want to engage him. It's hard for you to take the high ground here when you're acting like this.
Firstly there's a ton I disagree with Bernie on(Basically he's not far left enough). But I'll defend him because
It’s just ironic that for someone who supposedly supports the issues that Bernie puts forth - equality, support for minorities, progressive policies etc
When it comes to any criticism of Bernie, all of that goes out the window
All it says is that you support Bernie and are just as tribal as the other collectives, if you really supported the policies you would’ve taken the time out to listen to the voices of the minorities who are speaking out about this. But really you just care about saving face for Bernie.
1)He's got the only set of policies that will help working class people.
2)I do give a shit unlike sadly a lot of american voters about what they do aboard. And Bernie isn't so keen on the US death machine being stuck on the kill all brown people far away setting like the people before him. Christ he's one of the only politicians to talk about what is happening in Brazil .
I would suggest if people actually care about any of this they wouldn't lose their shit over a gaff from a white guy in his 70's.
You know it's a forum and you quoted me first, right ? I don't think you get how this works.
That was condescending?
Well I apologise @Sweet Square if my comment came across as condescending, that wasn’t my intention at all.
This issue is more than ‘a bit of a gaff’ for me and other minorities, so your original comment riled me up.
None of that addresses the concern of the issue to begin with, and you still insist that it’s just a gaff.
That’s why I didn’t bother engaging further.
Race and gender issues and his age are how he will be attacked in the primary - 2016 was a good preview of that. He can't afford a mistake like this.
but it’s true - There’s plenty of minorities talking about the issue on the internet at depth, it doesn’t take more than a few moments to find their voices. It’s Thursday night, I’m tired.
Plus I didn’t take kindly to the ‘its just a gaff’ comment, it makes no sense to hold that position, as a Bernie supporter. But that’s my opinion.
I think it's a gaff because it was a tiny moment in a 2 minute 10 sec call where Bernie said something that could of been worded better(Also in that interview ''Gillum ran a great campaign and he had to take on some of the most ugly and blatant racism that we have seen in many, many years.")
As for the issue of the concern with Bernie views on racism I would point back to my other posts. Although that would just makes us disagree more with each other.
I hate to do the here's a minority that agrees with me shtick but......
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And I think it’s more than a gaff because it’s not close to being the first time he’s been tone deaf when it comes to speaking about racism. This individual act by itself is part of the bigger picture.
I never once said that I think he’s racist, his views are obviously favourable. What I’m saying is that Bernie supporters are just as tribal as Trump and Hillary supporters, but won’t admit it. I’m sure if Hillary produced this ‘gaff’ you wouldn’t be so forgiving.
That’s why it smacks of patronisation to align yourself as a leftie, but when the moment comes to actually see what minorities are saying, your impulse is to do the exact thing a Trump supporter would do if it was Trump being criticised.
I hope I worded that correctly.
I never said I want to change your opinion. You’re entitled to think it’s a gaff, I said that it’s telling that you didn’t understand why minorities felt that it wasn’t just a gaff.
Even now you’ve found a minority voice that aligns with what you’re saying, but have you taken the time to see why others feel differently, why it blew up, and why he produced a response (not an apology) so hastily?
Or are you firm in your beliefs that this is a nothing issue, and that’s that?
God I hate the word gaff
It's gaffe.
I think gaff means house. Or vagina. Before you ask me to google, I didn't. I'm lazy lol villain
I don't dare ask after last time but where is this bigger picture failure Sanders has on race issues ? I've seen articles writing about his lack of talking about race and more talking about economic issues but to me this has more to with the death of class politics in american rather than the fault of Sanders.
When Bernie takes about economic issues he's talking about race issues, but the lack class politics means people think 1)Economic and racism aren't related - which is completely false 2)Working class economic policy means old white coal miner - again completely false.
A example of this - Bernie on 2014 Ferguson
Vox criticism I saw
I would just say I disagree with the criticism and that Sanders position is actually the better one. And to me anyway this the different the liberal view on racism and the socialist view.
I never you said you did.
Politics is by it's own nature tribal, it's a battle between ideas(although actually a battle between classes). So I'm not sure who is saying they aren't. As for my reaction had some like Clinton said this, I wouldn't be as forgiving because Clinton had a long history of actively putting forwarded racist and imperialist policy. Different politics different reaction.
And lastly it wasn't my ''impulse'' to defend Bernie, I had read views from people who thought what Bernie had said was problematic or even awful and I disagreed with their view.
As for why it blew up - it's the internet. Why he produced a response - because it blew on the internet, he's most likely running for president and no one has learned that if you just don't respond people will forget and move on within the 48 hours.
I'm happy to change my mind or to say I'm wrong(It happens regular on here)but I've yet to see any reason why this proves a more worrying picture of Sanders views on racism or that it wasn't anything but a gaff.
Hey something I've learned and it didn't cost me anything.just my worthless man-hours
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