2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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berbatrick said:
That said, Doug Jones, campaigning against the alleged paedeophile Roy Moore last year, campaigned on a decent centre-left hybrid platform but has voted with Trump 60% of the time, which is amazingly bad and a cautionary tale.
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I don't know that that's completely fair. FiveThirtyEight's congress tracker has him voting less frequently with Trump than expected (52%). I think there's room for some pragmatism here. If you expected Doug Jones to run a particularly progressive agenda then you set yourself up for disappointment. He's still voted with Trump 20% less than the GOP representative who voted the least with Trump, and he did it in a very red state. Any GOP candidate, much less Roy Moore, would have been a far worse result. And you may scoff at that and call it engaging in "the lesser of two evils", but... again, some pragmatism is needed when you're talking about a Democrat in Alabama.

As far as I know his vote hasn't been decisive in killing any progressive agenda in the House (correct me if I'm wrong), and you know as well as I do that he doesn't have a chance in hell of getting re-elected if he plays it completely straight progressively.
 
niMic said:
I don't know that that's completely fair. FiveThirtyEight's congress tracker has him voting less frequently with Trump than expected (52%). I think there's room for some pragmatism here. If you expected Doug Jones to run a particularly progressive agenda then you set yourself up for disappointment. He's still voted with Trump 20% less than the GOP representative who voted the least with Trump, and he did it in a very red state. Any GOP candidate, much less Roy Moore, would have been a far worse result. And you may scoff at that and call it engaging in "the lesser of two evils", but... again, some pragmatism is needed when you're talking about a Democrat in Alabama.

As far as I know his vote hasn't been decisive in killing any progressive agenda in the House (correct me if I'm wrong), and you know as well as I do that he doesn't have a chance in hell of getting re-elected if he plays it completely straight progressively.
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Nobody thought Jones was a progressive during the campaign and anyone who follows politics in Bama knows Dems have to be centrist in order to compete with generally more right wing Republicans there. Jones marketed himself as a centrist and that's exactly what he's been.
 
niMic said:
I don't know that that's completely fair. FiveThirtyEight's congress tracker has him voting less frequently with Trump than expected (52%). I think there's room for some pragmatism here. If you expected Doug Jones to run a particularly progressive agenda then you set yourself up for disappointment. He's still voted with Trump 20% less than the GOP representative who voted the least with Trump, and he did it in a very red state. Any GOP candidate, much less Roy Moore, would have been a far worse result. And you may scoff at that and call it engaging in "the lesser of two evils", but... again, some pragmatism is needed when you're talking about a Democrat in Alabama.

As far as I know his vote hasn't been decisive in killing any progressive agenda in the House (correct me if I'm wrong), and you know as well as I do that he doesn't have a chance in hell of getting re-elected if he plays it completely straight progressively.
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He's considering a vote for Kavanaugh. He supported the tax bill. He was willing to compromise on the wall. That's the core of what it is to be a Republican.
I had a post on reddit from a year ago about his platform but can't find it - it surprised me with some overtures to the left none of which he has mentioned since.

About pragmatism - he ran against the worst possible candidate - a suspected paedo ffs - and barely *barely* squeaked through, while also getting the boost from being against an unpopular president. THe stars won't align like that again - and anyway voters do not pay attention for the first year or so. This is as free as he'll ever be - and he's not exactly setting the world alight.


About the stats I had - I think I got it from the same tracker, but earlier in his term. Maybe a few more against votes recently. Sort that table by the 1st column and see the stark reality. Maverick Rand Paul votes against Trump 26% of the time, centrist Susan Collins 21%.
4 Dems vote with him >50% of the time! And many, many more in the 30s and 40. In fact, *half* the party votes wiith him as much as disloyal Rand Paul votes against!
 
berbatrick said:
He's considering a vote for Kavanaugh. He supported the tax bill. He was willing to compromise on the wall. That's the core of what it is to be a Republican.
I had a post on reddit from a year ago about his platform but can't find it - it surprised me with some overtures to the left none of which he has mentioned since.

About pragmatism - he ran against the worst possible candidate - a suspected paedo ffs - and barely *barely* squeaked through, while also getting the boost from being against an unpopular president. THe stars won't align like that again - and anyway voters do not pay attention for the first year or so. This is as free as he'll ever be - and he's not exactly setting the world alight.


About the stats I had - I think I got it from the same tracker, but earlier in his term. Maybe a few more against votes recently. Sort that table by the 1st column and see the stark reality. Maverick Rand Paul votes against Trump 26% of the time, centrist Susan Collins 21%.
4 Dems vote with him >50% of the time! And many, many more in the 30s and 40. In fact, *half* the party votes wiith him as much as disloyal Rand Paul votes against!
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If you look at Jones' own policy page on his campaign site, there is little to nothing that could be construed in the lefty/progressive range and a lot/everything that can be construed as normal centrist Dem policy.
 
niMic said:
I don't know that that's completely fair. FiveThirtyEight's congress tracker has him voting less frequently with Trump than expected (52%). I think there's room for some pragmatism here. If you expected Doug Jones to run a particularly progressive agenda then you set yourself up for disappointment. He's still voted with Trump 20% less than the GOP representative who voted the least with Trump, and he did it in a very red state. Any GOP candidate, much less Roy Moore, would have been a far worse result. And you may scoff at that and call it engaging in "the lesser of two evils", but... again, some pragmatism is needed when you're talking about a Democrat in Alabama.

As far as I know his vote hasn't been decisive in killing any progressive agenda in the House (correct me if I'm wrong), and you know as well as I do that he doesn't have a chance in hell of getting re-elected if he plays it completely straight progressively.
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he doesnt have a chance either way
 
Deval Patrick is another who is considering a run and is upping his media appearances recently. Axelrod's interview with him just aired and he was coy with his answers about whether he would run.
 
Fergies Gum said:
Deval Patrick is another who is considering a run and is upping his media appearances recently. Axelrod's interview with him just aired and he was coy with his answers about whether he would run.
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He's a bit too corporate to be taken seriously among Dem voters in the present.
 
Red Dreams said:
Obama's buddy.

Seriously though. What would Biden offer that would be more attractive than what Sanders has said?
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A lot of people vote on who they like and who gives them a sense of comfort that everything will be ok over candidates who are pushing specific policies, which is why Biden will be a player in 2020. I was talking to a guy (Indian-American male, late 20s) who I knew to have progressive political views the other day and just presumed he'd be pro-Bernie. When I asked him about 2020 he immediately said he would vote for Biden. When I asked why, he said he didn't think Sanders' policies were realistic. So when we see polling that has Bernie and Biden running neck and neck for 2020, you can bet there are a good number of people who have similar views. Bernie still has some work to do in this regard to transition from pie in the sky feel good alternative to Hillary candidate to realistic mainstream candidate who is ready for prime time.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
Exactly. The GOP primary runoff featured a field of crap candidates with low electability.

It figures heavily into the primaries if not the GE .
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But what gives Biden more ''electability'' than Sanders. And also on a question of actual politics haven't the 8 years of Obama shown that ''small incremental change''(That will be most likely what Biden will offer if he runs)to be completely pointless if nearly all that work can be undone in less than 2 years by a reality tv show star ?

Do the dems want power to simply stop a Republican President or do they want change the country ?
 
Sweet Square said:
But what gives Biden more ''electability'' than Sanders. And also on a question of actual politics haven't the 8 years of Obama shown that ''small incremental change''(That will be most likely what Biden will offer if he runs)to be completely pointless if nearly all that work can be undone in less than 2 years by a reality tv show star ?

Do the dems want power to simply stop a Republican President or do they want change the country ?
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On the first point, fewer extremes on policies without the baggage of Hillary.

As for the rest, you're talking ideals whereas I'm talking pragmatism in the context of a primary runoff which are two different things.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
On the first point, fewer extremes on policies without the baggage of Hillary.

As for the rest, you're talking ideals whereas I'm talking pragmatism in the context of a primary runoff which are two different things.
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What extremes in policy ?

If your answer to the 2016 election which the the outcome was Donald Trump as the president is a candidate without the baggage of Hilary then ok I guess but it's laughable to call it pragmatism.
 
Sweet Square said:
What extremes in policy ?

If your answer to the 2016 election which the the outcome was Donald Trump as the president is a candidate without the baggage of Hilary then ok I guess but it's laughable to call it pragmatism.
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Extremes in policy relative to the US in regards to universal education, income, and, to a lesser extent, healthcare. Or eliminating an industry like oil & gas... try selling that to western Pennsylvania or Ohio.

In regards to Trump a strongman rising up in the absence of good leadership in a democracy (like without electable candidates in the shit show the GOP put on) is not out of the norm, so I think you're still missing my point in that regard.
 
Cal? said:
I get that the Bernie bros are far more vocal, but she has the name recognition, the super pacs and the propaganda machine ready to go.

Unless the next Obama comes out from somewhere, I’m pretty sure she can take on Biden and Bernie
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You’re just describing 2016 not 2020. Bernie didn’t have the name recognition last time or the infrastructure, and with that enormous handicap he still finished respectably close. Now everyone knows who he is and his favouribility ratings stamp all over Hillary’s. Both him and Biden would smash her campaign to dust. She’s an extremely smart woman, she must know that another run would leave her humiliated.
 
Sweet Square said:
Do the dems want power to simply stop a Republican President or do they want change the country ?
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It's a broad church... So it would depend who you ask

Probably of most relavence to both is what will appeal to independent voters as without winning them over they probably can't stop a 2nd trump term... And without that can't make any changes

I think there will be candidate start to emerge next year.... If beto defeats lyin ted Then he would certainly have a lot of momentum
 
Organic Potatoes said:
Extremes in policy relative to the US in regards to universal education, income, and, to a lesser extent, healthcare. Or eliminating an industry like oil & gas... try selling that to western Pennsylvania or Ohio.

In regards to Trump a strongman rising up in the absence of good leadership in a democracy (like without electable candidates in the shit show the GOP put on) is not out of the norm, so I think you're still missing my point in that regard.
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Universal healthcare is very popular and any one running to support if the want to win the nomination let alone the election(Even Obama supports it now), Universal education is must if you want to get younger people(That's anyone under the age of 50 now)to come and vote for you. I'm not sure what you mean by Universal Income ?

Organic Potatoes said:
In regards to Trump a strongman rising up in the absence of good leadership in a democracy (like without electable candidates in the shit show the GOP put on) is not out of the norm, so I think you're still missing my point in that regard.
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Yeah I might be missing your point. Trump being a long time coming and my personal view on Trump is that it's has everything to do with the economic policies/ ideology of the past 40 odd years etc etc...(You know the shtick). Rather than a lack of leadership, I mean Obama was a great ''leader'' but the problem being what he believe in was a load of shite.

sun_tzu said:
It's a broad church... So it would depend who you ask

Probably of most relavence to both is what will appeal to independent voters as without winning them over they probably can't stop a 2nd trump term... And without that can't make any changes

I think there will be candidate start to emerge next year.... If beto defeats lyin ted Then he would certainly have a lot of momentum
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I'm sure there's a lot Dems out that would be happy with any sort of policy if it meant a Democratic President, which is not completely awful but seem(To put it nicely)very short sighted.

sun_tzu said:
I think there will be candidate start to emerge next year.... If beto defeats lyin ted Then he would certainly have a lot of momentum
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Agree about Beto. But he's also pushing for something like universal healthcare(So a improvement on 2016 at least), as long as a $15 minimum wage, universal healthcare is seen as a basic platform for anyone running then I don't care who really wins. Although I do think if Bernie does runs then he'll clean in similar way to other old white socialist guy in the UK.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
Extremes in policy relative to the US in regards to universal education, income, and, to a lesser extent, healthcare. Or eliminating an industry like oil & gas... try selling that to western Pennsylvania or Ohio.

In regards to Trump a strongman rising up in the absence of good leadership in a democracy (like without electable candidates in the shit show the GOP put on) is not out of the norm, so I think you're still missing my point in that regard.
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If we're talking electability, Sanders is (like Biden) currently projected to beat Trump comfortably. It's a fairly lazy and baseless criticism at this point.
 
Raoul said:
A lot of people vote on who they like and who gives them a sense of comfort that everything will be ok over candidates who are pushing specific policies, which is why Biden will be a player in 2020. I was talking to a guy (Indian-American male, late 20s) who I knew to have progressive political views the other day and just presumed he'd be pro-Bernie. When I asked him about 2020 he immediately said he would vote for Biden. When I asked why, he said he didn't think Sanders' policies were realistic. So when we see polling that has Bernie and Biden running neck and neck for 2020, you can bet there are a good number of people who have similar views. Bernie still has some work to do in this regard to transition from pie in the sky feel good alternative to Hillary candidate to realistic mainstream candidate who is ready for prime time.
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In the first place Biden wont be running. He is the second assurance for the DNC to prevent Hillary from running. Brazille's spill was the first.
But even if he runs, he needs to articulate his policies, likeable as he may be.
And Bernie's policies are certainly not pie in the sky. He explains how he pays for them even if the corporate media do their damn best to distort them.

As much as I and others like me love Bernie we are not his followers. If we were, we would have voted for Hillary.

Its policies that matter. This country has been ruined by middle of the road politicians like Biden. Going the same route is not going to bring relief to millions.

The Democratic party is in a bind. To lose their corporate funding or to lose the voters.

Obama intervened to prevent Ellison from being DNC chair. Though he can inspire voters to go vote democrat this election, 2020 is a different matter.

This battle between the corporatists and the Social Democrats is not going away just because a 'nice guy' is running for president.

The Nomination process is critical. It needs to be completely transparent.

But first we need to focus on Nov 6th.
 
Eboue said:
does no one run remember biden flopping in 88 and 08? i really dont think he will get the nomination
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I remember 88, the Neil Kinnock plagiarism issue and all. He was a different candidate in terms of stature and demeanor back then. I don't know how he would fare in the present since he is very old and wouldn't generate the sort of excitement a younger candidate would. Its generally hard for the public to get excited about candidates in their 70s imo.
 
Raoul said:
Disaster either way. If she seems credible then they will be under immense pressure to pull the nomination. If he manages to get approved then the GOP will have to deal with greater voter enthusiasm among Dem women going into the mid terms, as well as the spectacle of having two deviants on the court (Kavanuagh and Thomas). Lose lose situation for them.
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Think this may be the Flake moment. If she testifies, he may well vote against Kavanaugh.

That would end it and would enhance his 2020 creds.
 
Red Dreams said:
Both he and Corker are running in 2020. The Trump base will crumble when Murdock has a new flavour.
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That part of the party is dead. The crazies now control the power structure so the likes of Flake or Corker would be about as relevant as Martin O'Malley was for the Dems in 2016.
 
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Red Dreams said:
interesting. These guys are only interested in power.

Seriously I cannot see how former Republicans will vote for a Left leaning Democrat post Trump.
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I think the Trump phenomenon is more or less the end of the old right in the US. They have been pushed so far to the right that they are going to marginalize themselves out of relevance.
 
People brought up Booker's confession to feeling up a friend without consent last week also. Didn't work against him in his run for Senate so might not affect him here.
 


Adding this to her yes vote on military spending, and it appears that she's moving to the centre for 2020. Bernie and Warren running together will clear the way for a centrist candidate, if the party is disciplined enough to not allow that vote to be split.
 
berbatrick said:


Adding this to her yes vote on military spending, and it appears that she's moving to the centre for 2020. Bernie and Warren running together will clear the way for a centrist candidate, if the party is disciplined enough to not allow that vote to be split.
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She voted against this year's defense authorization bill.
 
berbatrick said:


Adding this to her yes vote on military spending, and it appears that she's moving to the centre for 2020. Bernie and Warren running together will clear the way for a centrist candidate, if the party is disciplined enough to not allow that vote to be split.
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Bernie is done if she runs. There is going to be a huge hunger in democratic party to elect another historical first. US electorate do not care about the international relations and espousing the same economical policis as Bernie would spell the end of latter's run.
 
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