2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

[freeurmind]

Forget about boycotting debates on FOX, based on last night's questions CNN should be banned too.

 

[do.ob]

Delaney's reaction somehow reminds me of Vince McMahon.
So exaggerated and clumsy.

 

[do.ob]

The NHS (healthcare service) in the UK is one of the best in the world. It works. But we also have private healthcare schemes as well which aren't expensive. UK people would happily pay a bit more tax to make it even better. I can't get my head around getting stiffed for a massive bill every time I went to the doctor or hospital? If we can do it, why can't the US? It must be really scary living n the US, especially if you have kids. Is healthcare over there free for kids or do parents have to pay for that too?

As a German I can second this. It feels utterly surreal to see something that's so natural in Europe and that's so very important for every human attacked and dismissed so easily in the US. Wasn't Obama even compared to Hitler for his reform attempts?

 

[langster]

Bernie and Liz need to stop trying to educate these fools and when asked about increased taxes for UHC they should just say...

'Yes of course your taxes will go up, you fecking morons! That's the whole point, everyone contributes and pays for everyone else. However, as your taxes go up, you will not have to bankrupt yourselves and pay stupid and needless insurance premiums anymore. Also, if you have healthcare included in your work contract, then your employer should cancel that and pay you more'

Simple.

Stop pandering to everyone and tell it straight.

 

[Carolina Red]

Warren talking about how only big corporations and billionaires will be taxed for healthcare and not the middle class is just disingenuous

If you’re talking about her statement made in the opening hour of the debate, then you are mischaracterizing what she said.

She didn’t say the middle class wouldn’t pay tax for it, she said the overall cost for the program to the middle class would stay the same or be lower than what they currently pay for private insurance.

 

[langster]

If you’re talking about her statement made in the opening hour of the debate, then you are mischaracterizing what she said.

She didn’t say the middle class wouldn’t pay tax for it, she said the overall cost for the program to the middle class would stay the same or be lower than what they currently pay for private insurance.

It would be far lower, especially if it wasn't added as a straight tax but more like a new 'National insurance' contribution added to wages. A few cents out of every dollar would be more than enough to cover it all.

 

[Carolina Red]

It would be far lower, especially if it wasn't added as a straight tax but more like a new 'National insurance' contribution added to wages. A few cents out of every dollar would be more than enough to cover it all.

Yes.

@Precaution is right in what he posted earlier though. Some people hear “raise taxes” and completely shut down and won’t listen to reason, even when you point out that insurance already is “paying for other people’s stuff”.

 

[langster]

Yes.

@Precaution is right in what he posted earlier though. Some people hear “raise taxes” and completely shut down and won’t listen to reason, even when you point out that insurance already is “paying for other people’s stuff”.

I completely get that, however I cannot understand the selfish attitude behind it. I accept it's been conditioned through years of fear mongering and one sided argument. I just find it hard to understand at times. I think it's time to just drive these changes home and let the education be from experience rather than pandering and trying to convince those who don't get it.

 

[adexkola]

Bernie and Liz need to stop trying to educate these fools and when asked about increased taxes for UHC they should just say...

'Yes of course your taxes will go up, you fecking morons! That's the whole point, everyone contributes and pays for everyone else. However, as your taxes go up, you will not have to bankrupt yourselves and pay stupid and needless insurance premiums anymore. Also, if you have healthcare included in your work contract, then your employer should cancel that and pay you more'

Simple.

Stop pandering to everyone and tell it straight.

They also need to throw in a few good lines about GoFundMe. I'm sick and tired of seeing donation requests on social media for medical care every week. That's a fecking tax that's gone with M4A

 

[langster]

They also need to throw in a few good lines about GoFundMe. I'm sick and tired of seeing donation requests on social media for medical care every week. That's a fecking tax that's gone with M4A

It's heart breaking seeing parents of a girl who was shot attending a garlic festival, pleading for cash to help pay her medical bills. That's so wrong. It's offensive and absolutely disgusting.

 

[berbatrick]

Didn't see it. How did my man do? Did he end the miserable existence of Tim Ryan? Did the fracking fluid that animates the corpse of hickenlooper sap his vital socialist energies?

 

[shamans]

If you’re talking about her statement made in the opening hour of the debate, then you are mischaracterizing what she said.

She didn’t say the middle class wouldn’t pay tax for it, she said the overall cost for the program to the middle class would stay the same or be lower than what they currently pay for private insurance.

That is also simply not true for everyone. Like I said I agree with the plan and it should be done just dont agree with presenting it in a way for the public to just buy it up.

Why do they keep mentioning billionaires? They cant fund healthcare alone. Also I'm pretty sure beto o Rourke straight up said middle class will not be taxed.

It's the same with Bernie Sanders making college education completely free and removing all debt with his magic wand. Not gonna happen.

 

[shamans]

Bernie and Liz need to stop trying to educate these fools and when asked about increased taxes for UHC they should just say...

'Yes of course your taxes will go up, you fecking morons! That's the whole point, everyone contributes and pays for everyone else. However, as your taxes go up, you will not have to bankrupt yourselves and pay stupid and needless insurance premiums anymore. Also, if you have healthcare included in your work contract, then your employer should cancel that and pay you more'

Simple.

Stop pandering to everyone and tell it straight.

Yes this is what I'm saying. Say it like that. It's frustrating becuase people keep ridiculing them for thinking theyll give us free stuff out of nowhere.

Their message needs to be clean and simple - a better lifestyle for all and yes that includes raising taxes

 

[shamans]

Meanwhile that idiot Marianne doing a perfect job of killing off any Democrats chances. Her yapping is a sure way for trump to win

 

[DOTA]

Didn't see it. How did my man do? Did he end the miserable existence of Tim Ryan? Did the fracking fluid that animates the corpse of hickenlooper sap his vital socialist energies?

I only half watched the first hour but I feel confident saying that absolutely nothing happened.

Watched Colbert's bit on it and Ryan describing the working class as 'people who shower after work' and Lizzy doing her version of the 'better things aren't possible' tweet when describing Delaney seem to be exciting as it got.

 

[SteveJ]

Meanwhile that idiot Marianne doing a perfect job of killing off any Democrats chances. Her yapping is a sure way for trump to win

She's a Rep plant.

 

[shamans]

The NHS (healthcare service) in the UK is one of the best in the world. It works. But we also have private healthcare schemes as well which aren't expensive. UK people would happily pay a bit more tax to make it even better. I can't get my head around getting stiffed for a massive bill every time I went to the doctor or hospital? If we can do it, why can't the US? It must be really scary living n the US, especially if you have kids. Is healthcare over there free for kids or do parents have to pay for that too?

The healthcare system here is garbage and an embarrassment but blown out of proportion to some extent. Most people with an employer have healthcare but it's still not fair to those that dont or have to pay. The system just doesnt work for everyone and thats the issue but for those that it does its not as bad as it's made out to be.

Let's not pretend NHS doesnt have a crap ton of problems as well. Both my brother in laws rely on private health insurance in UK because of how bad NHS has been. Although healthcare here sucks the quality of doctors and hospitals are far superior than anywhere in the world.

I think there are much better examples than NHS across Europe

 

[Eboue]

Meanwhile that idiot Marianne doing a perfect job of killing off any Democrats chances. Her yapping is a sure way for trump to win

Just become a Republican dude. You already support trump. Stop pretending.

 

[Red Dreams]

...and the NHS is in a mess because of the fecking Tories.

 

[Red Dreams]

I hope to see Tulsi slap Biden tonight.

 

[Boycott]

What's the point in having debates if moderators keep cutting people off mid sentence?

 

[Carolina Red]

That is also simply not true for everyone. Like I said I agree with the plan and it should be done just dont agree with presenting it in a way for the public to just buy it up.

You’d be hard pressed to find anyone in the middle class who would be paying more for healthcare under Medicare for All vs. private insurance premiums+deductibles+doctor bills+hospital bills+drug prices.

Why do they keep mentioning billionaires? They cant fund healthcare alone. Also I'm pretty sure beto o Rourke straight up said middle class will not be taxed.

They keep talking about them because they’re not paying their fair share of taxes.

And why are you taking about Beto when we are discussing Sanders & Warren?

It's the same with Bernie Sanders making college education completely free and removing all debt with his magic wand. Not gonna happen.

Magic wand? If you’re gonna straw man, then why bother?

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[shamans]

You’d be hard pressed to find anyone in the middle class who would be paying more for healthcare under Medicare for All vs. private insurance premiums+deductibles+doctor bills+hospital bills+drug prices.

They keep talking about them because they’re not paying their fair share of taxes.

And why are you taking about Beto when we are discussing Sanders & Warren?

Magic wand? If you’re gonna straw man, then why bother?

Who do you define as middle class because based on that I wont be hard pressed at all to find that the overall price (tax-insurance) will still increase. Bernie and Warren hiding behind that is doing them no favors.

Yes billionaires must pay more but the fact that both of them keep mentioning it when asked about healthcare is disingenuous. Playing the narrative of "taxing the rich to give healthcare to the poor" is false and an overall tax raise has to happen (which is not a bad thing!).

It's as good as a magic wand when Bernie says all student debt will be finished and college will be free. That simply cannot and will not happen just like that. It's borderline childish and just a way of buying in the emotional voter

 

[Carolina Red]

Who do you define as middle class because based on that I wont be hard pressed at all to find that the overall price (tax-insurance) will still increase. Bernie and Warren hiding behind that is doing them no favors.

Uh, no. Bernie literally has a calculator that you can plug your info into and it will show you what you’ll save and show you the math behind it.

Yes billionaires must pay more but the fact that both of them keep mentioning it when asked about healthcare is disingenuous. Playing the narrative of "taxing the rich to give healthcare to the poor" is false and an overall tax raise has to happen (which is not a bad thing!).

What is disingenuous about it?

It's as good as a magic wand when Bernie says all student debt will be finished and college will be free. That simply cannot and will not happen just like that. It's borderline childish and just a way of buying in the emotional voter

Germany has a magic wand?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Bernie and Liz need to stop trying to educate these fools and when asked about increased taxes for UHC they should just say...

'Yes of course your taxes will go up, you fecking morons! That's the whole point, everyone contributes and pays for everyone else. However, as your taxes go up, you will not have to bankrupt yourselves and pay stupid and needless insurance premiums anymore. Also, if you have healthcare included in your work contract, then your employer should cancel that and pay you more'

Simple.

Stop pandering to everyone and tell it straight.

Horrible idea. That would be falling for the trap of the far right by giving Rush and Hannity the exact sound bite they are fishing for.

They answered the way they ahould answer by refusing to engage in the right wing frame that would give the far right media trolls sound bite mileage for the next 10 years.

In short, the best thing to do is never give the right wing the sound bite they troll for which allows them to remove all context when they replay your words taken out of context.

The worst are scum like Delaney trying to repeat Rush Hannity tLking points.

Its important to understand how framing works before falling right into the right wing trap

 

[langster]

The healthcare system here is garbage and an embarrassment but blown out of proportion to some extent. Most people with an employer have healthcare but it's still not fair to those that dont or have to pay. The system just doesnt work for everyone and thats the issue but for those that it does its not as bad as it's made out to be.

Let's not pretend NHS doesnt have a crap ton of problems as well. Both my brother in laws rely on private health insurance in UK because of how bad NHS has been. Although healthcare here sucks the quality of doctors and hospitals are far superior than anywhere in the world.

I think there are much better examples than NHS across Europe

...and the NHS is in a mess because of the fecking Tories.

RD has just answered perfectly. Yes the NHS has problems and yes it always has, but the last few years the NHS has been systematically and intentionally dismantled and defunded by the Tories because they, along with wanker Farage want it to fail so they can introduce an American style insurance based system so they can profit from it.

No illusions, that is 100% what they want and why they want it. The rich don't give a fecking shit about anyone else and they only exist for them to make a profit from.

 

[langster]

Horrible idea. That would be falling for the trap of the far right by giving Rush and Hannity the exact sound bite they are fishing for.

They answered the way they ahould answer by refusing to engage in the right wing frame that would give the far right media trolls sound bite mileage for the next 10 years.

In short, the best thing to do is never give the right wing the sound bite they troll for which allows them to remove all context when they replay your words taken out of context.

The worst are scum like Delaney trying to repeat Rush Hannity tLking points.

Its important to understand how framing works before falling right into the right wing trap

Fair enough, but economically that should be countered by 'You will be better off, and you will save money'

Fair enough the phrasing may have been off but the principle was spot on.

 

[shamans]

Uh, no. Bernie literally has a calculator that you can plug your info into and it will show you what you’ll save and show you the math behind it.

What is disingenuous about it?

Germany has a magic wand?

Okay so anyone under than 250k is middle class (since that's after which your income will change) according to that calculator? I was only asking what the definition is for middle class.

Billionaire logic is disingenuous because taxing them is a super tiny piece of the healthcare reform. They need to be taxed higher regardless.

I really can't believe you're giving me the example of Germany. Apples to oranges. Changing an established system is a massive deal and like I said can't just be done like that. The college system and lifestyle here in the states is completely different.

The average salaries + costs are completely different. The topic of making college free deserves its own thread. Too nuanced and big of a topic to be discussed here but you certainly can't use the "but Germany does it" line of argument.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Fair enough the phrasing may have been off but the principle was spot on.

Simple truth rarely helps anyone in politics.

 

[shamans]

RD has just answered perfectly. Yes the NHS has problems and yes it always has, but the last few years the NHS has been systematically and intentionally dismantled and defunded by the Tories because they, along with wanker Farage want it to fail so they can introduce an American style insurance based system so they can profit from it.

No illusions, that is 100% what they want and why they want it. The rich don't give a fecking shit about anyone else and they only exist for them to make a profit from.

That's not the best healthcare system in the world then is it.

 

[shamans]

Simple truth rarely helps anyone in politics.

Truth or not, being upfront does. A big reason for Trumps success. Keeps it simple and upfront even if its complete lies.

 

[adexkola]

Horrible idea. That would be falling for the trap of the far right by giving Rush and Hannity the exact sound bite they are fishing for.

They answered the way they ahould answer by refusing to engage in the right wing frame that would give the far right media trolls sound bite mileage for the next 10 years.

In short, the best thing to do is never give the right wing the sound bite they troll for which allows them to remove all context when they replay your words taken out of context.

The worst are scum like Delaney trying to repeat Rush Hannity tLking points.

Its important to understand how framing works before falling right into the right wing trap

You're right actually.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Who do you define as middle class because based on that I wont be hard pressed at all to find that the overall price (tax-insurance) will still increase. Bernie and Warren hiding behind that is doing them no favors.

Yes billionaires must pay more but the fact that both of them keep mentioning it when asked about healthcare is disingenuous. Playing the narrative of "taxing the rich to give healthcare to the poor" is false and an overall tax raise has to happen (which is not a bad thing!).

It's as good as a magic wand when Bernie says all student debt will be finished and college will be free. That simply cannot and will not happen just like that. It's borderline childish and just a way of buying in the emotional voter

illionaire logic is disingenuous because taxing them is a super tiny piece of the healthcare reform. They need to be taxed higher regardless.

I'm a bit undivided on this. In 2018 US Healthcare costs were over $3 trillion (nearly twice to 2017). Best estimates for even a sweeping Bernie'esque Single Payer budget is less than that.

Hard to get accurate numbers as the savings are just projections, but there's a possibility that no additional funding might be needed at all.

 

[Carolina Red]

Okay so anyone under than 250k is middle class (since that's after which your income will change) according to that calculator? I was only asking what the definition is for middle class.

That’s not all you were doing. You also made the claim that it would be more expensive for people in the middle class.

Billionaire logic is disingenuous because taxing them is a super tiny piece of the healthcare reform. They need to be taxed higher regardless.

First off, both Sanders and Warren frequently say millionaires and billionaires.

Yes it is a small piece of healthcare reform, but the point is; they have so much money that taxing them will help cover a massive amount of the costs of reform.

You’ve still not addressed why you switched mid conversation to Beto.

I really can't believe you're giving me the example of Germany. Apples to oranges. Changing an established system is a massive deal and like I said can't just be done like that. The college system and lifestyle here in the states is completely different.

You keep saying it is a “magic wand” like there’s nowhere else where the system works. If there are existing examples of this working around the world, without magic, I’m going to point them out.

The average salaries + costs are completely different. The topic of making college free deserves its own thread. Too nuanced and big of a topic to be discussed here but you certainly can't use the "but Germany does it" line of argument.

In the US... The state of New York’s Excelsior Program provides for tuition free college at 2 and 4 year CUNY/SUNY institutions to NY residents, from families making under $125,000 per year, who agree to work and live in NY state for the same length of time as they received the funding for school. Over 900,000 people in NY qualify for this.

 

[Shinjch]

Truth or not, being upfront does. A big reason for Trumps success. Keeps it simple and upfront even if its complete lies.

It's not exactly "upfront" if it is complete lies, is it? Unless he prefaced it all by saying, "All of what I'm going to say now is a complete lie", then I guess it would be upfront.

 

[Eboue]

It's not exactly "upfront" if it is complete lies, is it? Unless he prefaced it all by saying, "All of what I'm going to say now is a complete lie", then I guess it would be upfront.

This is who you're talking to

If Sanders is the dem I'm legit voting for Trump

 

[Organic Potatoes]

I hope to see Tulsi slap Biden tonight.

Kinky. I like it.

 

[Adisa]

 

[shamans]

It's not exactly "upfront" if it is complete lies, is it? Unless he prefaced it all by saying, "All of what I'm going to say now is a complete lie", then I guess it would be upfront.

illusion of upfront. He's not hiding anything is his appeal.

This is who you're talking to

Give it a break you're gonna tire yourself.