Gotcha.
L to R is economic policy based, which is why Yang is farther right and Gabbard is over with Bernie.
2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress
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L to R is economic policy based, which is why Yang is farther right and Gabbard is over with Bernie.
Nope, but I am not looking at this as a single policy voter. Trump is a racist, we all know, a cnut and a bad human being. Biden's policies won't be very different to Trump's though, and the net effect on the lives of people in US (and the world, see global warming) won't be that much. While it would likely give the advantage to Republicans to choose another Trump in the future.
On the other hand, if Trump wins again, and sinks as low as it can get, then there is a good chance that a true progressive (like AOC, or some younger version of Bernie) will win and actually change things. Similar to the Tea Party success and Republicans winning everything in 2016 as a result of Obama, it can happen at the other side of the spectre.
Obviously, I would prefer that a Democrat wins, but if it ain't Bernie or Warren, I don't think it will be a big difference. And even if it is them, it will be super-important for Dems to get the Senate back by at latest 2022.
Political Compass has charted the 2020 candidates, plus possible republican challengers.
There are tons of biased memes for this but this is a decent one. For the record I think two axis is so much better than a single line as it really shows how warped to the right the US has become recently
The most interesting thing in this is how much to the right American system is. Democratic party would be a right-wing party in Europe, and the likes of ultra-left politicians like Bernie Sanders would be centre-left at best (called him before a centrist but that is probably too much), while according to this graph, Warren is a centrist which is probably accurate too.Political Compass has charted the 2020 candidates, plus possible republican challengers.
The less you talk about Republicans, the better. Almost every one of them would be to the right of Salvini and Le Pen.
Yes. I’ve pointed this out to fellow Americans many times when they go on and on talking about the “far left”.
—“you guys mean the center to center left?”
They look at me confused...
This is why I really question the voluntary choice of campaigning as a democratic socialist when you aren’t one by international standards or by the definition of democratic socialism. It has allowed what are centrist positions to be labeled as far left and crazy.
I definitely think it's okay for Sanders to call himself a democratic socialist. I believe that's where his values lie, even if the realities of living in and campaigning for office in the US sometimes force some moderation in rhetoric.
If folks in this thread are to be believed, he says what he truly believes. If that’s true, then his true beliefs do not align with democratic socialism.
I think it also helps explain Trump to people who are trapped into the mindset of the 1 axis political line. I know both people in the Bernie zone and the Ron Paul zone that would much prefer to cross the left-right barrier than the move up into the authoritarian zone.
Very true. The addition of the libertarian/authoritarian split is big. I use it in class to help show that economics and social agendas are not married at the hip. It’s very helpful when you’re dealing with students who believe things like communism = totalitarianism 100% of the time.
Democratic socialism is a sufficiently wide term, that I think Sanders could be placed in it. Warren isn't one, for sure, but I don't think Sanders sees capitalism as a positive and necessary thing to create a good, modern society.
Gonna agree with this. He's a social democrat going of off what he says/his policy positions. I'm less interested in what he calls himself. Although, I have had a friend who knows a lot about this stuff tell me that the social democrat/democratic socialist split was less of a significant one, or at least the terms were used interchangeably, way back when (iirc it was around the time of Lenin that the split became more obvious/significant).
Not that that's particularly relevant in this day and age to Sanders, I just think it's interesting.
With Biden, their chances are slimmer for sure.
If Sanders is advocating for a Nordic model, which he does, he's not post-capitalist and he's not a democratic socialist.
On Health Care Bernie has spoken to both individuals and businesses. But you have a point that small business owners may be too confused about what they stand to gain by going with single payer.
I agree there are members of Congress who are still and will be beholden to corporations.
But it will be difficult to go against a large mandate a President comes in with.
It wont be easy but it will involve negotiation of course.
The bottom like on medicare for all is it has not yet turned the political corner to where politicians are incentivized to support it. They continue to view it as controversial and potentially harmful to their political interests to get branded with the S word. Once that abates, more will support it and it will eventually pass (similar to gay marriage a decade ago). We're not there yet though.
Interesting graph in The Economist analyzing the reactions to the “go back” tweets...
Deplorables
I would agree it is very much about self interest for politicians. Staying in power as opposed to doing their duty. The Health Insurance companies and Big Pharma own them. Less to do with Socialism.
I would say the movement is gathering pace and change will happen a lot sooner.
What Charlie says below is what I’m talking about.
There is a difference between social democrats and democratic socialists. Bernie is for a capitalist system with a robust welfare state, he is not for replacing the capitalist system with public ownership of the means of production.
He even stated that he equates democratic socialism with the policies of FDR, which aren’t democratic socialism.
Academics and actual democratic socialists have called him out on this...
Reforming capitalism is one of the ways you can end up with a socialist system. It's naive to think that socialists are just going to get a legislative majority, and then wholesale abolish capitalism and institute socialism. I definitely think that Bernie is not for a capitalist system, no matter what he says to get elected.
That's his 2020 election campaign in a single graph right there.Interesting graph in The Economist analyzing the reactions to the “go back” tweets...
It’s naive to think that Bernie actually wants public ownership of the means of production. He doesn’t.
And the “he just says what it takes to get elected” blows the whole “he’s the only honest candidate in the race” thing out of the water.
Who's been saying that ?
Looks like your run of the mill case of identity politics; here privileging gender over ideas.
It’s been a common theme on this forum that Bernie means what he says and others are just paying lip service or are “stealth candidates”.
Maybe from Red Dreams and some others, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks so.
I’m not saying everyone does. I just felt it needed to be said.
And besides that, back to my original point... I agree with some of the academics that I posted a few posts ago that Bernie mislabeling himself could actually be a negative instead of a positive.
judge by what people do, not by what they say.
Oh right. Well personally I think Bernie is keeping a lot of his left views back in order to win over voters.
Bernie on the
Nicaragua Socialist Revolution.
Cuba
Sovet Union(He even honeymooned there)
Plus
To me this is where Bernie socialist views come through. He may not be offering socialism(who actually is these days ?)but I think would still call him a socialist. Although more importantly the only way to ever get to some sort of socialist future would be with Sanders like politics.The hours of footage include a scene of Sanders sitting with his delegation at a table under a portrait of Vladimir Lenin. Sanders can also be heard extolling the virtues of Soviet life and culture, even as he acknowledges some of their shortcomings. There are flashes of humor, too, such as his host warning the American guests not to cross the KGB, or else.
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Can't even point out why she doesn't like Bernie. And how dare women support Bernie?!?! And the woman next to her just nodding
Okay. So he’s still not a democratic socialist.
And I think that is a poor political decision in the United States. You’re labeling yourself farther left than what you really are in a country with two main parties that are center-right and right wing.
Just call yourself a progressive social democrat and move on. He’s created a political stick for his opponents to beat his own back with.
However he sees himself or is called, I'm interested in what he has done all his life and therefore what he wants to do. To empower working people.
I'm only interested in ensuring that everyone is treated fairly.
None of the others by what they have done have shown they want to do this.
I am willing to give Warren the benefit of doubt. that is all.
But he very well may be hurting his chances at winning anything outside the state of Vermont by calling himself something he’s not. It doesn’t make political sense... and he’s too far in the game now to change it.
Can't even point out why she doesn't like Bernie. And how dare women support Bernie?!?! And the woman next to her just nodding
Now. She makes my skin crawl.
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