2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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oneniltothearsenal said:
Actually its even worse for the HRC fans, only 9% of Bernie supporters voted Trump whereas 25% of Hilary supporters voted McCain (88% of Bernie supporters voted HRC)
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Are you sure? I'll find the 538 link I have saved but I remember reading that in 2016:

75% roughly of Bernie supporters voted for Clinton
Only 6-12% of those 25% voted for Trump

While in 2008, 25% of Clinton supporters actively voted for Mccain.

Edit:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lection/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.70748779b281

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...vote-what-does-that-mean-for-his-chances-now/

Two incredibly informative articles that hopefully will just put this nonsense to rest amongst people who still insist on blaming Sanders and his supporters for 2016.

Lots of stats about how they voted in 2016 and indeed how they are politically (I think people would be surprised, considering the stereotype of his supporters as some kind of hemp wearing, weed smoking, hippies.
 
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Cal? said:
Sanders likely cost himself the chance with his actions 3-4 years ago.

Whilst I get most people live in a bubble in terms of interacting with crowds of similar political leanings and I do know a lot of people who would have liked to see Hillary president.

I’ve seen and heard a lot of evidence that there is a significantly large portion of her base who are now ‘Never Bernie’ crowds and would vote whoever leads the Dem primaries ahead of him.
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Am I being crazy or is this not the original post you made today?

So how have you not brought up 2016 here?
 
Cal? said:
Except for the fact I didn’t mention 2016 in my original post today and it’s the Bernie bros not being able to handle anyone saying anything negative about him without getting all touchy about it. :rolleyes:
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You didn't literally write "2016" but you said
Cal? said:
Sanders likely cost himself the chance with his actions 3-4 years ago.
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Just stop.
 
africanspur said:
Are you sure? I'll find the 538 link I have saved but I remember reading that in 2016:

75% roughly of Bernie supporters voted for Clinton
Only 6-12% of those 25% voted for Trump

While in 2008, 25% of Clinton supporters actively voted for Mccain.

Edit:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lection/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.70748779b281

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...vote-what-does-that-mean-for-his-chances-now/

Two incredibly informative articles that hopefully will just put this nonsense to rest amongst people who still insist on blaming Sanders and his supporters for 2016.

Lots of stats about how they voted in 2016 and indeed how they are politically (I think people would be surprised, considering the stereotype of his supporters as some kind of hemp wearing, weed smoking, hippies.
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Not sure how you are getting them as even when I see 25% Clinton primary for McCain and only 12% of Bernie Primary for Trump in 2016

I've seen a lot of references but here is just what I saved on twitter



Oh and this is where the survey is from and a note on the discrepancy because a lot of these polls are rather fluid

https://sites.duke.edu/hillygus/files/2014/06/hendersonhillygustompsonPOQ.pdf
12. This is different from exit poll results, which report only 16 percent of Clinton supporters voting for McCain versus 83 percent for Obama. One possible explanation for the discrepancy is that the exit poll question was asked only to Democrats and was based on whom they wanted to win the primary, not on whether they actually voted in the nomination contest. Moreover, because the question is asked after the general election, there may be over-reporting of support for the winning candidate (Atkeson 1999).
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Not sure how you are getting them as even when I see 25% Clinton primary for McCain and only 12% of Bernie Primary for Trump in 2016

I've seen a lot of references but here is just what I saved on twitter

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I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I'm saying that 25% of Bernie supporters did not vote for Clinton. This includes voting for trump (apparently 6-12%), not voting and voting for third party.

This pales in comparison to what Clinton supporters did in 2008, where 25% of her supporters voted directly for Mccain, leaving even more on top of that who voted got third party or didn't vote at all.
 
africanspur said:
Am I being crazy or is this not the original post you made today?

So how have you not brought up 2016 here?
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I wasn’t going to talk about how Bernie played a big part in leading to Trump at all, but some people insist on going on about Hillary every time I post anything here.
oneniltothearsenal said:
You didn't literally write "2016" but you said

Just stop.
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I was talking about the current situation, but they prefer to go on and on about Hillary again. It’s certainly a factor, regardless if you see her base as being big or small, that many of them blame him for what happend.
 
Cal? said:
I wasn’t going to talk about how Bernie played a big part in leading to Trump at all, but some people insist on going on about Hillary every time I post anything here.

I was talking about the current situation, but they prefer to go on and on about Hillary again. It’s certainly a factor, regardless if you see her base as being big or small, that many of them blame him for what happend.
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I don't really understand what you're doing here tbh.

People were talking about Bernie and Biden vs Trump. Nobody brought up Hillary at all until you did, despite your complaints to the contrary.

Can you see how you bringing up Bernie with regards to Hillary might lead to people commenting on Bernie and Hillary, but especially considering your history of posts about them?

As I said in my first reply, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest of her supporters didn't vote for Bernie. A quarter of her supporters after all decided to vote for Mccain in 08, the same percentage as the total of Bernies supporters who didn't vote for her in 16. Only 6-12% of his voters didn't vote for her, for comparison.

Yet her supporters are painted as mature political operators and his as foolish lefty hippies.

You bring up Hilary constantly and slate Bernie incorrectly and then get surprised when you're called out on it and erroneously blame others for bringing it up.
 
africanspur said:
I don't really understand what you're doing here tbh.

People were talking about Bernie and Biden vs Trump. Nobody brought up Hillary at all until you did, despite your complaints to the contrary.

Can you see how you bringing up Bernie with regards to Hillary might lead to people commenting on Bernie and Hillary, but especially considering your history of posts about them?

As I said in my first reply, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest of her supporters didn't vote for Bernie. A quarter of her supporters after all decided to vote for Mccain in 08, the same percentage as the total of Bernies supporters who didn't vote for her in 16. Only 6-12% of his voters didn't vote for her, for comparison.

Yet her supporters are painted as mature political operators and his as foolish lefty hippies.

You bring up Hilary constantly and slate Bernie incorrectly and then get surprised when you're called out on it and erroneously blame others for bringing it up.
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She’s not running, so the only things that matters (looking forward) is how her sizeable base will do.

I was making the point that this is an issue for Sanders, which works in the favor of Biden (& all the other candidates).

What I’d like to see next year is a Dem win that rids the world of President Drumpf; obviously some Bernie bros are in the Bernie or bust camp and would rather see a 2nd Trump term to a ‘corporate Dem’.

I just don’t think Sanders is the best candidate to beat Trump.
 
Cal? said:
She’s not running, so the only things that matters (looking forward) is how her sizeable base will do.

I was making the point that this is an issue for Sanders, which works in the favor of Biden (& all the other candidates).

What I’d like to see next year is a Dem win that rids the world of President Drumpf; obviously some Bernie bros are in the Bernie or bust camp and would rather see a 2nd Trump term to a ‘corporate Dem’.

I just don’t think Sanders is the best candidate to beat Trump.
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Exactly how I feel but to say that just brings the Bernie fanatics out in force foaming at the mouth .

Like you I just don't see Bernie beating Trump but Biden will and that's all that matters .

Bernie might have the most fanatical support but that doesn't mean he has the most support
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
53% of Dem primary voters are 50 and above, seems pretty old to me.

Also 2016 is a really poor example because Democratic primary polling with the exception of Michigan were generally spot on.

Biden is a poor candidate, and the more he opens his mouth the more he will estrange people. That, however, doesn’t mean at the moment he isn’t holding a commanding lead due to the old and conservative portion of the Democratic primary base.
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2016 is relevant because Hillary offered nothing and younger people wanted real change.
Same situation.

Biden is still benefiting from who he was. Nothing more.
When it comes to substance he will fade badly.
 
africanspur said:
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I'm saying that 25% of Bernie supporters did not vote for Clinton. This includes voting for trump (apparently 6-12%), not voting and voting for third party.

This pales in comparison to what Clinton supporters did in 2008, where 25% of her supporters voted directly for Mccain, leaving even more on top of that who voted got third party or didn't vote at all.
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Ah, gotcha. Agreed. The phrasing just threw me off a little.

Cal? said:
What I’d like to see next year is a Dem win that rids the world of President Drumpf; obviously some Bernie bros are in the Bernie or bust camp and would rather see a 2nd Trump term to a ‘corporate Dem’.
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You say that is if there aren't a large chunk of corporate Dems that prefer Trump over Bernie. Many of Biden's donors like the Comcast and for-profit health industry execs

The real problem are the Democrats that prefer Trump over Bernie. Those are the ones doing the most damage to the country that don't even belong in the Democrat party
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
You say that is if there aren't a large chunk of corporate Dems that prefer Trump over Bernie. Many of Biden's donors like the Comcast and for-profit health industry execs

The real problem are the Democrats that prefer Trump over Bernie. Those are the ones doing the most damage to the country that don't even belong in the Democrat party
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That’s their prerogative, everyone has different preferences.

I just don’t see how Biden/Harris/Buttigieg is a worst choice than Trump for Bernie Bros. :confused:
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Ah, gotcha. Agreed. The phrasing just threw me off a little.




You say that is if there aren't a large chunk of corporate Dems that prefer Trump over Bernie. Many of Biden's donors like the Comcast and for-profit health industry execs

The real problem are the Democrats that prefer Trump over Bernie. Those are the ones doing the most damage to the country that don't even belong in the Democrat party
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Apologies, probably my poor wording at the time. Struggled to get the words out there!
 
Cal? said:
She’s not running, so the only things that matters (looking forward) is how her sizeable base will do.

I was making the point that this is an issue for Sanders, which works in the favor of Biden (& all the other candidates).

What I’d like to see next year is a Dem win that rids the world of President Drumpf; obviously some Bernie bros are in the Bernie or bust camp and would rather see a 2nd Trump term to a ‘corporate Dem’.

I just don’t think Sanders is the best candidate to beat Trump.
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See, the third paragraph is really peoples' problems with how you post on this topic I think. With all due respect. First two great, on board.

Firstly, the point of a political candidate is not to just be there and hope to win votes by default. They are supposed to be inspiring and make people actually vote for them.

Secondly, despite evidence to the contrary being posted quite a few times now, you keep on blaming Bernie and his supporters for Trump when their actions don't seem unique at all (in fact, as I've pointed out many times, her supporters acted much worse in 08.)

Thirdly, I'm not sure if you've read the articles but they point out that many of his primary supporters who ended up voting for Trump were not Democrats in the first place. They were attracted by his unique message. So they were never going to be voting for Clinton anyway.

Bernie has developed this bogey man reputation amongst Clinton's supporters who fail to acknowledge her own appalling campaign.

I'm not American and frankly couldn't care less which of the Dems win, as long as one of them does. Obviously I prefer some more than others but seeing what Trump will likely do with the SC, the Pacific, potentially the Middle East and even the social aspects of American society with another 4 years, I just want him gone.

I think he has a very good chance of winning regardless of the Dem tbh.
 
africanspur said:
See, the third paragraph is really peoples' problems with how you post on this topic I think. With all due respect. First two great, on board.

Firstly, the point of a political candidate is not to just be there and hope to win votes by default. They are supposed to be inspiring and make people actually vote for them.

Secondly, despite evidence to the contrary being posted quite a few times now, you keep on blaming Bernie and his supporters for Trump when their actions don't seem unique at all (in fact, as I've pointed out many times, her supporters acted much worse in 08.)

Thirdly, I'm not sure if you've read the articles but they point out that many of his primary supporters who ended up voting for Trump were not Democrats in the first place. They were attracted by his unique message. So they were never going to be voting for Clinton anyway.

Bernie has developed this bogey man reputation amongst Clinton's supporters who fail to acknowledge her own appalling campaign.

I'm not American and frankly couldn't care less which of the Dems win, as long as one of them does. Obviously I prefer some more than others but seeing what Trump will likely do with the SC, the Pacific, potentially the Middle East and even the social aspects of American society with another 4 years, I just want him gone.

I think he has a very good chance of winning regardless of the Dem tbh.
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The point is we clearly disagree on said 3rd paragraph and I stand by my view.

Winning is winning, it’s the result that matters.

The bolded part is exactly the issue. Regardless of what the Bernie bros think of her, she does have a significant base.

Good luck to Sanders if he wins the nomination, but I hope he doesn’t because I think he’d have a smaller chance against Trump than most other Dems
 
Cal? said:
Winning is winning, it’s the result that matters.
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So we can agree that Hillary was a loser then, and that her failure to beat even Donald Trump is the key point to remember about her stupid and poorly contested run for the presidency?
 
The normally level headed Chris Coons fresh from a Biden rally was talking like a Republican about Iran.
Yes they are heading for a war.

Then I heard Leon Panetta talking about the incompetence of the administration in handling the entire Iran matter.

This really is about Wagging the Dog.

If my Congressman and or Senator votes for war, they are not getting my vote no matter what the consequence in 2020.
 
Kentonio said:
So we can agree that Hillary was a loser then, and that her failure to beat even Donald Trump is the key point to remember about her stupid and poorly contested run for the presidency?
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No one disagreed that Hillary lost.

Why she lost is down to a number of reasons.
 
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT filed 17 charges against WikiLeaks co-founder Julian Assange on Thursday, deploying the controversial Espionage Act as a cudgel against First Amendment protections and press freedom. It’s the first time the U.S. government has used the Espionage Act to prosecute a publisher, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists.

Democratic presidential candidates Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, along with Sen. Ron Wyden, who all have been outspoken on civil liberties issues, slammed the indictment.

“Let me be clear: it is a disturbing attack on the First Amendment for the Trump administration to decide who is or is not a reporter for the purposes of a criminal prosecution,” Sanders wrote in a tweet Friday afternoon after The Intercept contacted his office for comment. “Donald Trump must obey the Constitution, which protects the publication of news about our government.”

Warren distanced herself from Assange but condemned the Justice Department’s move to curtail press freedom. “Assange is a bad actor who has harmed U.S. national security — and he should be held accountable,” Warren said in a statement. “But Trump should not be using this case as a pretext to wage war on the First Amendment and go after the free press who hold the powerful accountable everyday.”

“This is not about Julian Assange,” Wyden said in a statement. “This is about the use of the Espionage Act to charge a recipient and publisher of classified information. I am extremely concerned about the precedent this may set and potential dangers to the work of journalists and the First Amendment.”
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https://theintercept.com/2019/05/24/julian-assange-extradition-espionage-congress/
 
Fergies Gum said:
The scumbag is one heck of a hypocrite.

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Does a bear shit in the woods?

I hope the question of packing the court surface at some point in the campaign. Someone who says no to that has no business being elected, because he/she ain’t going to get anything done without it.
 
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