You just said high priced players have to perform on the biggest stage. Which is it?
‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf
- Thread starter sammsky1
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You just said high priced players have to perform on the biggest stage. Which is it?
Bit harsh on Koulibaly. He’s a man in clear physical decline and not the man mountain he once was. Hence why he’s probably not worth the massive price tag anymore but in the right set up could still improve a fair few defences.
I remember seeing him live against Liverpool and he was like a one man defence, the only one who could keep grips on Salah who was electric and he definitely came across as a top defensive talent by this era’s standards.
He doesn’t look like he’s moving the same way.
Varane definitely gets overrated to a degree (I’ve seen people say he’s better than VVD) because in my opinion he still needs to prove that he’s a great ‘primary’ centre back who doesn’t need his hand held. He’s clearly a fantastic deputy if paired with someone more vocal and experienced but can he marshal a defence?
Some would argue 2018 World Cup was proof that he can but I feel like the jury is still out in this respect. He has some growth still to do.
I wouldn’t write the boy off, his best years could still be to come and this could be the making of him but he’s not the finished article IMO.. his trophy cabinet may be full but I want to see more leadership skills.
I remember seeing him live against Liverpool and he was like a one man defence, the only one who could keep grips on Salah who was electric and he definitely came across as a top defensive talent by this era’s standards.
He doesn’t look like he’s moving the same way.
Varane definitely gets overrated to a degree (I’ve seen people say he’s better than VVD) because in my opinion he still needs to prove that he’s a great ‘primary’ centre back who doesn’t need his hand held. He’s clearly a fantastic deputy if paired with someone more vocal and experienced but can he marshal a defence?
Some would argue 2018 World Cup was proof that he can but I feel like the jury is still out in this respect. He has some growth still to do.
I wouldn’t write the boy off, his best years could still be to come and this could be the making of him but he’s not the finished article IMO.. his trophy cabinet may be full but I want to see more leadership skills.
Defending is more than your back 5. Not only the midfield but also the attack. Liverpools defense for example would be much worse with a different front three. I think just by getting Sancho our defense would improve. However Pogba, Matic and Fernandes are a hindrance even though Matic is a good DM and Pogba is actually more disciplined and hard working than given credit for. However they are not Wijnaldun, Fabinho and Henerson level of defensive stability.
Its debatable but Im not sure Liverpools defense would do much better in our team. Basically Im saying that I agree with the op. The defence is actually better than given credit for. Not perfect but no defense is.
Its debatable but Im not sure Liverpools defense would do much better in our team. Basically Im saying that I agree with the op. The defence is actually better than given credit for. Not perfect but no defense is.
Unlike many of you who’ve slated the OP, I actually get where he (she?) is coming from. The point (at least mine) isn’t that Maguire or Lindelof is better than Varane or Koulibaly. It is the magical notion that we have Lindelof so we struggle but if we were to sign a strong/physical defender like Koulibaly, we’ll win the title.
The evidence based on last two nights is that every CB makes mistakes. When we see our two CBs making them, we’re in a less generous mood while when ‘Elite Hipsters’ make them in potentially the biggest games of the season, people even on this forum are more forgiving. Maybe the point is to analyse our CBs with the exact same information that we have on the hipsters. The real point of differentiation has actually been created by FIFA where the overall of Varane and Koulibaly is 89-90 etc and when you see them in real life and compare them to our often slated, 82 overall, Victor Lindelof, you can’t help but feel a bit underwhelmed.
Naturally, the best course of action is to watch all players in question for the same amount of games spread across a longer duration of time. But if that were needed to form an opinion, then the caf would have to be shut down. Essentially, on the limited data points that we have, most fans (the people who watch each and every United or their own club game but watch the likes of RM and Napoli only in CL knockouts primarily) don’t really have an opinion on Varane and Koulibaly, but instead a hypothesis based on journalism, FIFA ratings and other fans opinion. When we see them in real life, the hypothesis is immediately tested. If the player plays well, then he’s a messiah. But if he doesn’t, then he’s overrated and no better than Maguire or Lindelof. And that, in a nutshell, is today’s hipster fan.
The evidence based on last two nights is that every CB makes mistakes. When we see our two CBs making them, we’re in a less generous mood while when ‘Elite Hipsters’ make them in potentially the biggest games of the season, people even on this forum are more forgiving. Maybe the point is to analyse our CBs with the exact same information that we have on the hipsters. The real point of differentiation has actually been created by FIFA where the overall of Varane and Koulibaly is 89-90 etc and when you see them in real life and compare them to our often slated, 82 overall, Victor Lindelof, you can’t help but feel a bit underwhelmed.
Naturally, the best course of action is to watch all players in question for the same amount of games spread across a longer duration of time. But if that were needed to form an opinion, then the caf would have to be shut down. Essentially, on the limited data points that we have, most fans (the people who watch each and every United or their own club game but watch the likes of RM and Napoli only in CL knockouts primarily) don’t really have an opinion on Varane and Koulibaly, but instead a hypothesis based on journalism, FIFA ratings and other fans opinion. When we see them in real life, the hypothesis is immediately tested. If the player plays well, then he’s a messiah. But if he doesn’t, then he’s overrated and no better than Maguire or Lindelof. And that, in a nutshell, is today’s hipster fan.
I have just seen Koulibaly’s first half highlights. Absolute disaster. He even managed to kick Messi’s leg in the box with his lack of awareness and gave away a needless penalty. Maguire would have been slaughtered here all week if that was him
Varane the least said the better with his performance at City. I even suspected he was bribed before the match. Shambles
Varane the least said the better with his performance at City. I even suspected he was bribed before the match. Shambles
Don't you think that Maguire/Lindelof wouldn't struggle if they were at Napoli and facing Barcelona? Don't you think that Koulibaly would do better if he played for a club like ours? Napoli are a mid sized club whose owner pissed off half the squad. Their morale is low, their performance had tanked (7th place at the moment) and they replaced Ancelotti with Gattuso. Its like replacing Guardiola with Howe. 1 VS 1 they would struggle against Spurs let alone Barcelona.
Koulibaly had seen better years but he's still a way better defender then Lindelof is.
Koulibaly had seen better years but he's still a way better defender then Lindelof is.
Napoli was never a great side. They ended up second because the Milanese clubs and Roma tanked financially. They were as much of a competition for Juventus as Liverpool were for SAF's team.
To make matter worse at the end of last year the owner decided to punish the squad out of Lulz which lead to a revolt of epic proportions. Ancelotti left, Allan came to blows with the owner's son and at one point De Laurentiis considered putting the entire squad on sale. That wasn't really a great time to cause a scene because many key players were heading towards their end of contract.
The club is imploding.
I have said a fair few times in this thread but my problem with our pair of CBs is the lack of pace, especially with Maguire.
I just feel we can't play a high line and this invites alot of defensive pressure.
Am not sure how we can solve this though considering the outlay.
I just feel we can't play a high line and this invites alot of defensive pressure.
Am not sure how we can solve this though considering the outlay.
The problem with Maguire and Lindelof is that they're just not a good partnership. As a pair, they both lack pace so there is a weakness against pacey powerful strikers. Someone like Josh King causes them problems.
It's like Bruce before Pallister or Rio before Vidic. While Maguire/Lindelof struggle against pace, Rio/Mik or Rio/Wes struggled against physical strikers.
Maguire isn't a great defender but has other qualities that make him really important to this United team. There's no doubt that a Varane or Koulibaly next to him would be a massive upgrade on Lindelof as a partnership.
I like Lindelof. He reminds me of Kenny Cunningham. Reads the game really well and is a good pure defender but he just lacks the physical traits to be a really top class defender, especially in a team holding a high line.
His best chance is to hit the gym and build up his power and explosiveness so he doesn't get outmuscled as easily. If he doesn't improve in that area I think next season could be his last as first choice.
It's like Bruce before Pallister or Rio before Vidic. While Maguire/Lindelof struggle against pace, Rio/Mik or Rio/Wes struggled against physical strikers.
Maguire isn't a great defender but has other qualities that make him really important to this United team. There's no doubt that a Varane or Koulibaly next to him would be a massive upgrade on Lindelof as a partnership.
I like Lindelof. He reminds me of Kenny Cunningham. Reads the game really well and is a good pure defender but he just lacks the physical traits to be a really top class defender, especially in a team holding a high line.
His best chance is to hit the gym and build up his power and explosiveness so he doesn't get outmuscled as easily. If he doesn't improve in that area I think next season could be his last as first choice.
So the thread title is misnamed. Should be: ‘Fast’ CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf No one really wants to bring in elite CBs; not even hipsters. Critics want faster CBs.
I don’t think you know what hipster means.
Thanks to everyone that answered my question 
I value our defensive fullbacks more instead.
I look at yesterdays mistakes the CB'S had made due to the spaces the opposition forwards pressed and the angles the forwards aimed to attack in - AWB and Shaw would help their CB's much more than the forward minded wingback that these teams play.
I look at yesterdays mistakes the CB'S had made due to the spaces the opposition forwards pressed and the angles the forwards aimed to attack in - AWB and Shaw would help their CB's much more than the forward minded wingback that these teams play.
Lindelof seems the most suited to passing / playing out under pressure of the two. I know we paid 80m and therefore are invested in Maguire, but it seems a bit strange that we try and find a new partner only for the sake of Maguire. We should find one(s) that goes good for both, so we can mix defenders after what opponents we're facing.
Eventually I think the two will cope too, when we practice pressure-playing more. Ole hasn't completely nailed it yet with making passing options available.
Eventually I think the two will cope too, when we practice pressure-playing more. Ole hasn't completely nailed it yet with making passing options available.
You are so far from being objective it’s laughable. You paint Maguire as some sort of pub player before he signed for Utd - forgetting somehow that both Man City and Man Utd wanted to buy him. Utd wanted to buy him for over a year, first Jose and then OGS. You then just ignore the fact Maguire has had a good season, and KK has been poor. You ignore how good Maguire was at the World Cup, no one is saying he’s the second coming of Bobby Moore, but I’d far rather have him in the side than KK. Who, as I said earlier, if anyone stumps up £80m this summer is a flop waiting to happen. Massive transfer fee, 4 year contract on big wages, poor positioning, reliant on pace and going to a new league at 29. No thanks.
Who had a better season, Maguire or KK? Maguire.
Who had a better season Smalling or KK? Smalling.
Of course not, I'm pointing out your hypocrisy - anyone from the outside with half a brain would pick Koulibaly over Maguire just like they'd pick Koulibaly over Zouma.
Of course he wasn't a pub player but it's ridiculous to suggest coming into this season he was viewed more favourably. We all can choose how we evaluate players - if you want to heavily weight the season just gone to the exclusion of past performances, that's fine and you're free to do so. I just happen to disagree.
Anyone from the outside with half a brain wouldn't compare Zouma's case with Maguire's case.
Maguire is a much more reliable centre back than Zouma. There is a reason why Pep wanted him last summer & expressed his interest. There is a reason why we spent the money on him instead of Koulibaly last summer and improved our defense this season.
What a player costs is irrelevant to where he should be classified. Nobody put a gun to Woodward head and made him pay 80m pounds. Just like nobody is forcing him to pay 120m for Sancho.
You signed Maguire over Koulibaly because Koulibaly wasn't moving to a side that didn't have CL football.
If you genuinely thought last summer that Maguire was better than Koulibaly then that's completely irrational. Absolutely nothing to suggest that was the case.
Oh, I forgot. Of course I would swap any of them for the super CB’s Rudiger or Christensen. They’re amazing
If that's the case why didn't Pep sign Koulibaly last summer? They have CL football and they were looking for a centre back.
Let me tell you why, because you keep getting it wrong. It's because Koulibaly isn't as elite as what people described. His valuation was 130m last summer, no club including United was going to pay extra 50m for someone who isn't miles better than Maguire. VVD is worth 130m, Koulibaly isn't.
After his poor performance this season and he's on 29 now, Napoli's valuation dropped drastically and still no one will pay as per what they asked for originally.
If he's cost 30m-40m, anyone would be willing to pay for him. 130m Last summer and 80m-90m this summer, is such high cost player have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.
You think a league game is on par with a CL knockout tie? Come on now, you were just in the competition last year, surely you can't have forgotten that quickly what it's like.
Oh, I forgot. Of course I would swap any of them for the super CB’s Rudiger or Christensen. They’re amazing
Not what the thread is even remotely about but nice try.
Because they couldn't afford Maguire, let alone Koulibaly. How are you expecting them to meet the valuation for the better player when they couldn't afford Maguire?
And yet, and we’ve discussed Maguire is the better player, unless like you, you just ignore the entire last season.
Koulibaly would be an expensive disaster of a signing.
A cb with a cool beard
Absolute BS mate.
Maguire has proven to be a better player than Koulibaly in the season he moved to Man Utd. That’s justification enough. Stop looking at the past few years, and look at the present.
The chances of Koulibaly instantly adjusting to the PL, playing every PL game and making such an impact that he was made captain after only being at the club are close to zero.
The reason Utd didn’t buy Koulibaly is that he was completely over priced, and had never played in the PL at his age. He’s the sort of signing we would have made post Fergie and is completely the wrong type of player.
If he’s so good, why are there no clubs who are actually in for him?
They bid 70m for Maguire last year lad.
A club with Arab money don't have money to sign someone?
They don't wanna pay because they think the valuation is off the chart, they have their own director of football to make the decision. United paid the money on Maguire because they need a reliable centre back and it's not worth to spend extra 50m on someone who is not miles better & 2 years older than Maguire with no PL experience. Only VVD caliber would have worth for extra 50m last season.
Rides a penny farthing round the pitch and dispossesses opposing strikers with a polo mallet.
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/goals_conceded?se=274
We conceded the third least goals in the premier league last season, three less goals than Liverpool who conceded the least.
Now, I’m not saying that means our defenders are ‘elite’ whatever that means, but maybe it suggests they’re a bit better than they get credit for, particularly from neutrals.
We conceded the third least goals in the premier league last season, three less goals than Liverpool who conceded the least.
Now, I’m not saying that means our defenders are ‘elite’ whatever that means, but maybe it suggests they’re a bit better than they get credit for, particularly from neutrals.
Thread created out of ignorance just to start something because watched 2 games of football where two of the best CB’s in recent years played poorly. Caf peakdom has been achieved.
They aren’t even hipster CB’s considering they are well established and known. Gabrielle, Pau Torres now they could be considered hipster CB’s as I doubt many watch them and if they have fair play to them.
They aren’t even hipster CB’s considering they are well established and known. Gabrielle, Pau Torres now they could be considered hipster CB’s as I doubt many watch them and if they have fair play to them.
Pep has had his share of busts and we have signed Fred. Napoli wanted over 100m for koulibaly and he was also 28 years old, the money and the age ruled him out. Maguire was cheaper and younger.
Christ, this thread
Lindelof was a hipster signing. Vidic with ball playing abilities they said. They were wrong
I've literally never heard anyone describe him like that.
Another thread where some poster are massively underrating Maguire.
I tell you what had Maguire joined City they would have won the title. Maguire would massively improve this chelsea side who think their defenders are pretty good but it's all Kepa's fault even when he is at bench. Maguire would massively improve this arsenal side too. He would also walk into this spurs side and Jose would love him. He would also form a deadly partnership with VVD. In short he walks into all the top 6 side plus arsenal.
I tell you what had Maguire joined City they would have won the title. Maguire would massively improve this chelsea side who think their defenders are pretty good but it's all Kepa's fault even when he is at bench. Maguire would massively improve this arsenal side too. He would also walk into this spurs side and Jose would love him. He would also form a deadly partnership with VVD. In short he walks into all the top 6 side plus arsenal.