‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf

[UNITED ACADEMY]

??? Never said he didn't want him but clearly he was the backup plan.

1. Pep goes to Napoli asking for Koulibaly. Is quoted an insane price.
2. City go to Leicester for Maguire. Get quoted a lower but still insane price. Get outbid.

Regardless, this is an unprecedented level of preciousness - cannot believe that you are so sensitive about your players that a simple statement of fact like "last summer, Koulibaly was universally regarded as better and more valuable" has your knickers in such a twist.

Looks like you are having some problem here, I'll make it easy for you to read.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/man-city-transfer-news-koulibaly-16476337

But the simple fact is that City have NO interest in Koulibaly – he is not even on a short-list of centre backs they drew up after the departure of Vincent Kompany .

The Blues do need a replacement, and Harry Maguire remains the prime target – now it comes down to whether City are prepared to break the world record for a defender by splashing out around £80million.

While the article you gave me showed nothing about Maguire being the backup target. Give me an evidence where it says that Koulibaly was Pep original target while Maguire was the backup target as per you said then we can continue this conversation.

 

[OL29]

I know. IIrc, they also referred to Poch as a hipster choice. As far as I can tell, "hipster" is being used to describe anyone outside of United who is rated higher than someone at United.

Correct

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Looks like you are having some problem here, I'll make it easy for you to read.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/man-city-transfer-news-koulibaly-16476337

While the article you gave me showed nothing about Maguire being the backup target. Give me an evidence where it says that Koulibaly was Pep original target while Maguire was the backup target as per you said then we can continue this conversation.

Look at the dates & use your brain? Is that too much to ask?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Look at the dates & use your brain? Is that too much to ask?

Click & read the article that I gave you, because if you do, you will realise it's completely countering your article & your argument. Is that too much to ask?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/man-city-transfer-news-koulibaly-16476337

 

[Ekeke]

So which would be the elite strikers that Maguire came up against this season? Kane who was below his usual level in the league, but better in the champions league group stages and who else? Spurs still scored in both league matches against us, Liverpool got 3 in 2 games. Arsenal werent one of the top teams but got 3 goals in 2 matches against us.

Chelsea struggled to score against us in the league, but then got 3 in one match in our last meeting and knocking us out of the FA cup.

City certainly struggled against us with just 1 goal out of 3 games if we include the league cup. Leicester also struggled with 0 out of 2 matches against us in the league.

I dont think that quite compares to facing Messi and Suarez, Lewandowski etc in the champions league. And I think these bigger matches show very mixed results for our defense despite our setup with defensive fullbacks who dont push far forward and 2 DMs in front of the defense. In some matches we did very well and in others it clearly came up short which shows theres still plenty of improvement we can make.

Having said that I wouldn't swap Maguire for Varane or Koulibaly. I do think he's been better in the last 2 seasons combined than the other two. I've always thought they were overrated as well.

 

[Isotope]

Maguire got turned by Zaha, a not so elite striker. So did Lindelof, brushed off by the mighty Giroud.

You just need to watch games of why Varane was deemed elite, instead of basing one or a few games to compare him to Maguire and lindelof.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Right, that's why Koulibaly looks nailed on for a transfer to Man City this summer?

Worth remembering that football acumen genius Pep turned down Maguire at 80m last year. Or is his opinion only meaningful when it suits your narrative?

I would be very surprised to see City spend that kind of money on a 30 year old defender considering they have never spent that amount on a player before, but if they do, in my opinion a big part of it will be regretting not going after someone like Maguire last year. I'm sure Pep thought he would be fine with what he had, which is why he didn't add anyone. Now it's obvious that he does need someone...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I have seen several people talk about how Maguire and Lindeloff are on the same level, and VVD is "the best defender in the world". So just curious as to why nobody has commented on this then? There seems to be a lot of people around here with agendas against Maguire but when faced with the facts, their silence is deafening...

------------------Tckl----Blk---Int--Clr---HdClr----Rec---DW---DL---50/50---ABW---ABL
Maguire-------37------6-----72---157---94-------237--240--128---8---------176-----71
Virgil VD-----23------5------40--162----83------220----239--81----3---------191------60
Lindeloff----29------1------26---122---58------215----135--78----4----------96-------50

Legend: Tckl=Tackles, Blk=Blocks, Int=Interceptions, Clr=Clearances, HdClr=Headed Clearances, Rec=Recoveries, DW=Duals Won, DL=Duals Lost, ABW=Arial Battles Won, ABL=Arial Battles Lost

https://www.premierleague.com/players/9566/Harry-Maguire/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5140/Virgil-van-Dijk/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5066/Victor-Lindelöf/stats?co=1&se=274

 

[Beanz]

I'm genuinely satisfied with lindelof and maguire. Safe, reliable, consistent, composed and will only get better. We do need fitter back ups though.

 

[roonster09]

Right, that's why Koulibaly looks nailed on for a transfer to Man City this summer?

Worth remembering that football acumen genius Pep turned down Maguire at 80m last year. Or is his opinion only meaningful when it suits your narrative?

What?

 

[rollingstoned1]

Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre backs in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give them credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is natural as ball playing defenders, such as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.

indeed, watch us sign one of them and them getting a reality check while calling for a similar hipster CB a year from now while rewriting history and saying we overpaid for the one they initially wanted and that we really should have signed someone else. This happened with Maguire, people forget how imperious he looked during the wc.

 

[Siorac]

I'm genuinely satisfied with lindelof and maguire. Safe, reliable, consistent, composed and will only get better. We do need fitter back ups though.

This has to be the strangest English expression when it comes to football. They might very well become much worse.

 

[Greck]

I know. IIrc, they also referred to Poch as a hipster choice. As far as I can tell, "hipster" is being used to describe anyone outside of United who is rated higher than someone at United.

People use it for anything that claims to be different or modern for the sake of it, except on here it's used for anything that's different. Before joining Liverpool Klopp used to be regarded as a hipster manager on here. Don't know much about Varane's ups and downs but I'd wait to see Maguire in the CL before comparing

 

[romufc]

The thing is we looked at both Varane and Koulibaly. They both would have cost us £100m to get. How many fans who call out for Koulibaly and Varane actually watch their respective clubs all the time?

Maguire was £80m, proven PL CB, English International who was a decent age. The one thing he lacked was pace, we knew that before we signed him.

Signing Koulibaly and Varane would have been a gamble. How many big money gambles from Europe have worked for us?

Koulibaly has had a bad season. Fans saying don't judge Varane on one game, but its because we dont watch him play often so the game we watch him is in a big CL game, he made 2 mistakes in a big game. If Maguire does that, this forum would blow up.

 

[ivaldo]

The thing is we looked at both Varane and Koulibaly. They both would have cost us £100m to get. How many fans who call out for Koulibaly and Varane actually watch their respective clubs all the time?

Maguire was £80m, proven PL CB, English International who was a decent age. The one thing he lacked was pace, we knew that before we signed him.

Signing Koulibaly and Varane would have been a gamble. How many big money gambles from Europe have worked for us?

Koulibaly has had a bad season. Fans saying don't judge Varane on one game, but its because we dont watch him play often so the game we watch him is in a big CL game, he made 2 mistakes in a big game. If Maguire does that, this forum would blow up.

Probably about as much as the fans who use them as examples of better CBs.

It's just as you say. Lindelof and Maguire are already being micro-analyzed. If they played as poorly in a high level game, a huge portion of this forum would want them gone; it would be the undeniable evidence that they needed replacing asap. The fact of the matter is, both CBs hold up well with statistical comparisons, they rarely make mistakes leading to goals, defensively we've been one of the best in Europe, and we concede very, very few goals against the best sides. I'd be perfectly happy if they were our CBs for the next few years.

 

[romufc]

Probably about as much as the fans who use them as examples of better CBs.

It's just as you say. Lindelof and Maguire are already being micro-analyzed. If they played as poorly in a high level game, a huge portion of this forum would want them gone; it would be the undeniable evidence that they needed replacing asap. The fact of the matter is, both CBs hold up well with statistical comparisons, they rarely make mistakes leading to goals, defensively we've been one of the best in Europe, and we concede very, very few goals against the best sides. I'd be perfectly happy if they were our CBs for the next few years.

Yes, but the know it all fans know that there is better defenders out there. People go on about Lindelof, his poor heading but he hasn't made the mistake varane made with his head this season.

Varane got bullied of the ball by Jesus, imagine if Lindelof got bullied. The I told you so will be out in force.

I was a bit of United stand on youtube, there is this chap who keeps calling for Koulibaly, as if he is the holy grail in defence but thought he was left footed. That should tell you where fans on this forum are.

Before Upemacano signed a contract, he was in his final year, almost 7/10 on here who wanted a new CB had his name as a potential for £40m, City spent £40m on Ake not Upemacano.

Had we not have signed Harry Maguire last season, we would be in big big trouble this summer.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes, but the know it all fans know that there is better defenders out there. People go on about Lindelof, his poor heading but he hasn't made the mistake varane made with his head this season.

Varane got bullied of the ball by Jesus, imagine if Lindelof got bullied. The I told you so will be out in force.

I was a bit of United stand on youtube, there is this chap who keeps calling for Koulibaly, as if he is the holy grail in defence but thought he was left footed. That should tell you where fans on this forum are.

Before Upemacano signed a contract, he was in his final year, almost 7/10 on here who wanted a new CB had his name as a potential for £40m, City spent £40m on Ake not Upemacano.

Had we not have signed Harry Maguire last season, we would be in big big trouble this summer.

Lindelof has made mistakes with balls in the air this season. Were you not watching?

 

[Isotope]

I'm sure most people have watched Varane enough to form opinion. Even based on CL games, where he had played more than 50 games and won quite a "few" of them. Then there's that little World Cup competition as well.

Unless we need to watch a player 100 times before making opinion?

Only in here where Lindelof and Maguire (although the later is twice the player than the former) can be mentioned on the same level as Varane. It's just insane. Next time you know, this pair will be mentioned as good as Rio-Vidic (look at those stats!!).

 

[Vanya]

I think it can be argued that Varane didn't mess up a critical part of defending his goal. He made two mistakes that aren't necessarily to do with the art of defending per se. He got caught on the ball and messed up a back pass with his head.

I wouldn't question his skills as a defender as a result. Same with koulibaly v barca. On the other hand if they were getting nutmegged and outfoxed by opposition forwards I would question their ability to defend, world class status and price tag

 

[roonster09]

They are rated highly because they are class players and one of the best CBs in the world for years. Koulibaly looks like he is on decline going by his performance this season (there might be many reasons for this) but people don't randomly rate players as great players.

Saying that they make mistakes too, if we micro analyze every player like caf loves to do, then there isn't a good player in the world maybe bar Messi.

 

[romufc]

Lindelof has made mistakes with balls in the air this season. Were you not watching?

Like has every other CB in the country.

Where has Lindelof made a mistake where he ball is nabbed and an open play goal conceded?

I am not saying Lindelof is better than Varane. All I am trying to point out is, defenders make mistake. Even the ones that the caf think are the holy grail.

 

[Ekeke]

Like has every other CB in the country.

Where has Lindelof made a mistake where he ball is nabbed and an open play goal conceded?

I am not saying Lindelof is better than Varane. All I am trying to point out is, defenders make mistake. Even the ones that the caf think are the holy grail.

Yup they all do, its about the frequency whilst still trying to win the ball and engage the forward players.

The thing is Varane doesn't have AWB at right back who does half the job of the CB next to him. Granted, not in the air as AWB is weak there just like Lindelof.

 

[romufc]

Yup they all do, its about the frequency whilst still trying to win the ball and engage the forward players.

The thing is Varane doesn't have AWB at right back who does half the job of the CB next to him. Granted, not in the air as AWB is weak there just like Lindelof.

What nonsense is this. How can you say a RB does the CB's job for him? Have you seen number of times AWB has been caught out of position this season? AWB had done his job as a RB and that is it. The last few weeks AWB has been poor, Lindelof has looked out best defender post lockdown.

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

I trust Ole and the staff. If Maguire's been played every single minute possible since he was signed by the club, he's clearly doing something right both on and off the pitch. His awkwardness in recovery is hard to watch, as have been the few mistakes he made this past season. But our defensive record is primarily down to him and De Gea. I bet if he starts connecting better on headers in the offensive box, he will gain more confidence and improve even in his defending.

 

[A-man]

What nonsense is this. How can you say a RB does the CB's job for him? Have you seen number of times AWB has been caught out of position this season? AWB had done his job as a RB and that is it. The last few weeks AWB has been poor, Lindelof has looked out best defender post lockdown.

Agree, plus if a CB is under press and is going to play their way out, I think most prefer to play together with Carvajal rather than AWB.

Varane is a very good CB, maybe even top 5 in the world imo, but the mistakes he made in the match, if any of our defenders made those two scattered over the 38 matches in the PL he would be killed in here. People who microanalyze every single goal we concede would go crazy.

 

[romufc]

Agree, plus if a CB is under press and is going to play their way out, I think most prefer to play together with Carvajal rather than AWB.

Varane is a very good CB, maybe even top 5 in the world imo, but the mistakes he made in the match, if any of our defenders made those two scattered over the 38 matches in the PL he would be killed in here. People who microanalyze every single goal we concede would go crazy.

Exactly, Lindelof is good on the ball and when he passes it to AWB, he looks scared of the ball sometimes.

I agree, Varane is up there as with the best CB's in the world, everyone talks about pressure, this guy has played in CL finals, big crowds, playing in an empty stadium is not pressure, it was 2 genuine mistakes.

The fans who micro analyze would say, Lindelof is bad in the air, Lindelof is weak he got bullied by Jesus, that wouldn't happen to Koulibaly or Varane. Well, they both had shockers in the CL. Does it mean they are bad defenders? No.

The only think I think we lack in our defence pairing is pace. But that doesnt necessarily mean we need 2 CB's, if there is no one available a more agile, combative CDM would do the trick too.

 

[Ekeke]

What nonsense is this. How can you say a RB does the CB's job for him? Have you seen number of times AWB has been caught out of position this season? AWB had done his job as a RB and that is it. The last few weeks AWB has been poor, Lindelof has looked out best defender post lockdown.

Easy, he comes across and confronts the strikers and makes tackles in central areas. He's doing it, our CB isnt. He's been a huge upgrade over Young at rightback, nobody else has a RB doing that for them

 

[romufc]

Easy, he comes across and confronts the strikers and makes tackles in central areas. He's doing it, our CB isnt. He's been a huge upgrade over Young at rightback, nobody else has a RB doing that for them

So why do we need to spend money on a CB when our RB can cover? why spend money for no reason?

Let me show you some stats. If you are trying to pin our defence based on AWB only, whilst glorying Soyuncu and Leicester defence.

Perreira does the same role AWB does, granted not as good defensively but he has also played less mins.

Why are you rating Soyuncu so much higher than our CB's then?

	AWB	Ricardo Perreira
Duels Won	256	226
Duels won %	55	60
Ariel duel %	46	40
Recoveries	171	179
Tackles won	68	80
Tackles won %	58	62
Clearances	74	58
Interceptions	49	66

 

[Ekeke]

So why do we need to spend money on a CB when our RB can cover? why spend money for no reason?

Let me show you some stats. If you are trying to pin our defence based on AWB only, whilst glorying Soyuncu and Leicester defence.

Perreira does the same role AWB does, granted not as good defensively but he has also played less mins.

Why are you rating Soyuncu so much higher than our CB's then?

	AWB	Ricardo Perreira
Duels Won	256	226
Duels won %	55	60
Ariel duel %	46	40
Recoveries	171	179
Tackles won	68	80
Tackles won %	58	62
Clearances	74	58
Interceptions	49	66

Like you said, he's not as good defensively. He gets beaten a lot more. But Ricardo is better going forward. He works just as hard as AWB but doesn't help the defense as much and helps the attack more than AWB does.

Soyuncu was great in the first half of the season, like the rest of Leicester the wheels came off in the covid months when Pereira and Maddison werent available and they didnt have depth

 

[romufc]

Like you said, he's not as good defensively. He gets beaten a lot more. But Ricardo is better going forward. He works just as hard as AWB but doesn't help the defense as much and helps the attack more than AWB does.

Soyuncu was great in the first half of the season, like the rest of Leicester the wheels came off in the covid months when Pereira and Maddison werent available and they didnt have depth

I said he isnt as good defensively, doesnt mean he is miles apart from AWB. He played less games or the stats would have been very similar to AWB.

Yes Maddison had an injury and it felt to bits, whilst we had Pogba out for most of the season, Rashford, Martial, Shaw, McTominay have all been out injured too.

So we can make excuses for other teams whilst slagging all our defenders off?

 

[Denis79]

Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre backs in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give them credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is natural as ball playing defenders, such as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.

Disagree that they are far better at defending as you put it. We have a really organized defence, with a lot of shielding from our midfield. Judging Varane from a CL knock-out game where they are chasing goals, exposing themselved is a poor starting point, the same goes for Koulibali. That said our CB pairing isn't close as bad as some put it, neither are they the absolute elite. I think Maguire will get there eventually, he has shown it in the PL and it's unfair to judge him in his first season with us. Lindelof I don't see being set partner for Maguire in the future though.

 

[Ekeke]

I said he isnt as good defensively, doesnt mean he is miles apart from AWB. He played less games or the stats would have been very similar to AWB.

Yes Maddison had an injury and it felt to bits, whilst we had Pogba out for most of the season, Rashford, Martial, Shaw, McTominay have all been out injured too.

So we can make excuses for other teams whilst slagging all our defenders off?

He is though, in terms of what we're talking about which is a RB doing so much defensively and doing things that the CB should be doing next to them

Ricardo is actually the most dribbled past right back this season, almost twice per game. AWB is 0.6

So he tries a lot of tackles and makes a lot of tackles, but players still beat him and his team have to defend those situations

On the other hand AWB doesnt get beat much and you can see many examples of AWB coming central to make a challenge on an attacker, or covering our CBs to help stop a chance. When I watched Leicester I dont remember seeing Ricardo do that.

 

[sammsky1]

i think its bollocks but still ...

 

[romufc]

He is though, in terms of what we're talking about which is a RB doing so much defensively and doing things that the CB should be doing next to them

Ricardo is actually the most dribbled past right back this season, almost twice per game. AWB is 0.6

So he tries a lot of tackles and makes a lot of tackles, but players still beat him and his team have to defend those situations

On the other hand AWB doesnt get beat much and you can see many examples of AWB coming central to make a challenge on an attacker, or covering our CBs to help stop a chance. When I watched Leicester I dont remember seeing Ricardo do that.

So AWB helps out ?

In the same way Soyuncu dribbles past per game is 0.6 compare to Lindelof at 0.1. All the stats now are showing Lindelof has had a better season than Soyuncu.

 

[Ekeke]

So AWB helps out ?

In the same way Soyuncu dribbles past per game is 0.6 compare to Lindelof at 0.1. All the stats now are showing Lindelof has had a better season than Soyuncu.

Lindelof isnt going to get dribbled past when he doesn't come towards the attacker and look to make a tackle. AWB comes across to help with that stuff, unlike Ricardo. Lindelof backs off

Maguire was better than Soyuncu overall in my opinion I'd have to say after the last run of games where Soyuncu's form wasnt good

 

[A-man]

At the start of the season it felt like AWB covered a lot in the centre, at the second half it felt like Lindelof covered a lot behind AWB. Guess it is normal team work, but also that AWB has been told to move more forward.

 

[TwoSheds]

I feel like this thread is a fascinating case study in how people can go completely mental in hot weather. I prescribe an ice tea for you all.

 

[pratyush_utd]

i think its bollocks but still ...

If we can get them to drop it to 50m euros , it would be great deal for us. He is still a fantastic defender but better than what we have. Only his age is downside so wouldn't want us to pay too much for him

 

[Bastian]

With Lindelof - who is now regarded as not that far off world class defenders, who in turn have turned to shite because of one game - what people may want to ask themselves is do they trust him next to another relatively weak centre back?

I remember Bailly and Lindelof as a pairing. They needed Fellaini to hold their hands against physical teams. I could handle seeing Maguire with either of them, but them as a pairing is asking for trouble.

Also, interesting points @Ekeke regarding AWB's defensive covering. It may have been sacrificed to a degree since the re-start, to get him further up the pitch, but we were afforded that too with having a better ball playing first XI that wasn't set up negatively (as before) and soaking up as much pressure.

 

[sammsky1]

I feel like this thread is a fascinating case study in how people can go completely mental in hot weather. I prescribe an ice tea for you all.

iced lemon water for me!