‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf

Maguire is not elite, Lindelof is even further off. Maguire is not good enough, neither is worth the money we paid for him. He’s not even much of a leader either.

I hate his fecking goal celebration.

However, that’s not his fault.

It’s the club’s fault for first identifying him as our top transfer target for a central defender, then agreeing to overpay for him.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
If that's the case why didn't Pep sign Koulibaly last summer? They have CL football and they were looking for a centre back.

Let me tell you why, because you keep getting it wrong. It's because Koulibaly isn't as elite as what people described. His valuation was 130m last summer, no club including United was going to pay extra 50m for someone who isn't miles better than Maguire. VVD is worth 130m, Koulibaly isn't.

After his poor performance this season and he's on 29 now, Napoli's valuation dropped drastically and still no one will pay as per what they asked for originally.

If he's cost 30m-40m, anyone would be willing to pay for him. 130m Last summer and 80m-90m this summer, is such high cost player have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.
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Who scored rankings: Maguire is 35th in the Prem, Lindelof 149th; Smalling is 44th in Series A, Koulibaly 147th. Why would we want Koulibaly when we've already got Smalling who dominates him in almost every statistical category?
 
For completeness I should probably mention that Varane is ranked 34th in La Liga (although he's statistically a little inferior to Maguire or Smalling). Comparing the five, Smalling has more goals and assists, a higher completion percentage, is dribbled the least and loses the ball less often than the others. So again, why would we want Koubibaly (or Varane) when we've got Smalling?
 
Feels like the ship sailed on Koulibaly a few years ago and people keep throwing his name out there without any reflection on his recent seasons.

Would 100% rather have Smalling back even if the financial position was the same for both.
 
TMDaines said:
Feels like the ship sailed on Koulibaly a few years ago and people keep throwing his name out there without any reflection on his recent seasons.
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Pretty much. If you look at the stats he performed well until 17/18 and since then he's had his worst seasons of his career
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
And yet, and we’ve discussed Maguire is the better player, unless like you, you just ignore the entire last season.

Koulibaly would be an expensive disaster of a signing.
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I don't ignore the last season, I just don't think it's the end-all be-all like you do apparently. Unless you are arguing that Maguire was perceived as the better player last summer, which is absurd given their respective valuations.

RkkMan said:
They bid 70m for Maguire last year lad.
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And they didn't sign him and he went for more to you lot...don't know why you think this disproves anything I'm saying? Clearly they had a budget for a CB and the prices of Koulibaly and Maguire exceeded it.

UNITED ACADEMY said:
A club with Arab money don't have money to sign someone? :lol:

They don't wanna pay because they think the valuation is off the chart, they have their own director of football to make the decision. United paid the money on Maguire because they need a reliable centre back and it's not worth to spend extra 50m on someone who is not miles better & 2 years older than Maguire with no PL experience. Only VVD caliber would have worth for extra 50m last season.
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Cast your memory back one year to when City were under investigation for FFP violations - obviously the owners could afford it but City couldn't pay over the odds for either Koulibaly or Maguire. Are you genuinely trying to dispute this?
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
I don't ignore the last season, I just don't think it's the end-all be-all like you do apparently. Unless you are arguing that Maguire was perceived as the better player last summer, which is absurd given their respective valuations.
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Why does anyone care about how they were perceived last summer. Why not look at now? Clearly this season is the most important barometer of how good a player is, that’s not to ignore the past, although you seem to ignore Maguires form that meant the 2 Manchester clubs were interested in him for over a year.

Buying Maguire ahead of KK last year was the right thing to do, as proved by this season - not a one off match, the entire season. No one even took the price tag of £100m remotely seriously.

If he was that good why have none of the big PL teams, Barcelona, PSG, Juventus, Real Madrid even been interested in him. The interest in him from Utd was all paper talk.

Would he have been as good as Maguire in the PL this season, highly doubtful.

Was our third best CB in Smalling better than him this season, yes. Says it all.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player, but no one is interested in him as a big money signing. As I’ve said previously, he has massive flop written all over him if anyone stumped up for him.
 
I don't think many people doubt that Maguire and Lindelof are good defenders, it's just that having two slow CBs isn't a good idea in the modern game where top teams are required to press and keep a high line. Maguire and Lindelof force us to defend deep too often.
 
I don’t think there are any elite defenders playing the game at the moment. When I think of the likes of Jaap, Rio and Vidic their ability was on another planet. It’s why VVD stands out as a great defender so much, yet, in Rio’s day, he wouldn’t be top five.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Why does anyone care about how they were perceived last summer. Why not look at now? Clearly this season is the most important barometer of how good a player is, that’s not to ignore the past, although you seem to ignore Maguires form that meant the 2 Manchester clubs were interested in him for over a year.

Buying Maguire ahead of KK last year was the right thing to do, as proved by this season - not a one off match, the entire season. No one even took the price tag of £100m remotely seriously.

If he was that good why have none of the big PL teams, Barcelona, PSG, Juventus, Real Madrid even been interested in him. The interest in him from Utd was all paper talk.

Would he have been as good as Maguire in the PL this season, highly doubtful.

Was our third best CB in Smalling better than him this season, yes. Says it all.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player, but no one is interested in him as a big money signing. As I’ve said previously, he has massive flop written all over him if anyone stumped up for him.
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Why not look at the bigger picture? Why deliberately exclude potentially relevant data just because it doesn't suit your narrative?

Yes, Maguire had a better season than Koulibaly. No, that doesn't automatically make him the better player. How this is controversial to say in the slightest is utterly beyond me.

As to why he hasn't moved, I suppose you can be forgiven for not being aware of this given United haven't gone in for any Napoli players recently, but negotiating with AdL is a singularly unpleasant task. Plenty of sides have shown concrete interest in Koulibaly and been rebuffed.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Why not look at the bigger picture? Why deliberately exclude potentially relevant data just because it doesn't suit your narrative?
Yes, Maguire had a better season than Koulibaly. No, that doesn't automatically make him the better player. How this is controversial to say in the slightest is utterly beyond me.
As to why he hasn't moved, I suppose you can be forgiven for not being aware is when looking to sign or evaof this given United haven't gone in for any Napoli players recently, but negotiating with AdL is a singularly unpleasant task. Plenty of sides have shown concrete interest in Koulibaly and been rebuffed.
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The bigger picture when looking to sign or evaluate a player is project how they will be in the future, and certainly not to see how they did in the past. We can fully expect Maguire and Lindelof to have an improving trajectory. But the jury is out for both Koulibali and Varane, for whom it seems their very best days are behind them.

So, actually it's you who is defining timeframes to suit your agenda.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Why not look at the bigger picture? Why deliberately exclude potentially relevant data just because it doesn't suit your narrative?

Yes, Maguire had a better season than Koulibaly. No, that doesn't automatically make him the better player. How this is controversial to say in the slightest is utterly beyond me.

As to why he hasn't moved, I suppose you can be forgiven for not being aware of this given United haven't gone in for any Napoli players recently, but negotiating with AdL is a singularly unpleasant task. Plenty of sides have shown concrete interest in Koulibaly and been rebuffed.
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I’m not excluding any data, you are being insufferable.

You are the one who wants to ignore the season that’s just gone.

Surely the point of this thread is to discuss who is the better player now, and who will be in the next couple of seasons, hence should Man Utd buy KK? The answer is Maguire is the better player now, and Man Utd certainty do not regret buying him over KK.
 
sammsky1 said:
The bigger picture when looking to sign or evaluate a player is project how they will be in the future, and certainly not to see how they did in the past. We can fully expect Maguire and Lindelof to have an improving trajectory. But the jury is out for both Koulibali and Varane, for whom it seems their very best days are behind them.

So, actually it's you who is defining timeframes to suit your agenda.
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Oh my god I cannot win with you people. Literally the post I was replying to stated "Why not look at now".

If you're arguing which of the two would make a better signing from this point forward, that's a far more interesting discussion. If you're arguing which of the two you'd rather have in a one off match where your life is on the line, I think that's a far less interesting discussion because the choice should obviously be Koulibaly.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I’m not excluding any data, you are being insufferable.

You are the one who wants to ignore the season that’s just gone.

Surely the point of this thread is to discuss who is the better player now, and who will be in the next couple of seasons, hence should Man Utd buy KK? The answer is Maguire is the better player now, and Man Utd certainty do not regret buying him over KK.
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This is the fundamental problem. The only way you can come to this conclusion is if you only use this past season as evidence and exclude everything that came before. 12 months ago, you'd be laughed at for suggesting that Maguire was the better player.

Obviously the past season is weighted higher that previous ones, but IMO the difference between the two this year doesn't overcome the body of evidence stacked up over the previous 3 seasons.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
This is the fundamental problem. The only way you can come to this conclusion is if you only use this past season as evidence and exclude everything that came before. 12 months ago, you'd be laughed at for suggesting that Maguire was the better player.

Obviously the past season is weighted higher that previous ones, but IMO the difference between the two this year doesn't overcome the body of evidence stacked up over the previous 3 seasons.
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Who cares about 12 months ago. 12 months ago you would have been laughed at if you suggested we would still be playing PL football in August. I’m talking about now.

Thankfully Utd bought the right player, and look forwards rather than have the backward view you have (or should I say a shoehorned view that supports your opinion).

Players emerge, players decline in the space of 12 months. You must think Sanchez is still a quality player because he was for 5 years at Arsenal.
 
I believe that we are in the middle of a period of dearth of exceptional defensive players. It is one of the reasons why Utd found it so hard to move on from guys like Smalling and Jones, it was never as easy to replace them with upgrades as people imagined. Easy to throw out the names, Koulibaly, Manolas, Skriniar, Upamecano and imagine some amazing improvement. It rarely lives up to the hype, we see that with Maguire, a good player, but one with obvious flaws that many choose to ignore when the transfer was in progress.

The players we have/had are rarely as bad as made out and those we hype are rarely as good. Improvements at this level tend to be incremental or in chemistry/stylistic choice.
 
Even with quite a few keeper howlers this season our goals conceded in the league was pretty impressive, just off Liverpool. Unless there’s a prodigy on the doorstep of greatness I wouldn’t spend big on a CB this summer. Give Tuanzebe, Bailly and Fosu-Mensah a chance to push out Lindelof, who’s actually grown nicely into the job. But yes, Maguire and Lindelof are quite a step down from Rio and Vidic.

Spend big on Sancho and bring in cover for Matic. Clear out deadwood like Jones, and as we have with Sanchez.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Cast your memory back one year to when City were under investigation for FFP violations - obviously the owners could afford it but City couldn't pay over the odds for either Koulibaly or Maguire. Are you genuinely trying to dispute this?
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They placed 70m bid on Maguire last summer mate.
 
Maybe wait first till we see what Maguire and Lindelof will do in CL next season before starting to compare them to CBs who do mistakes on such level. Someone like Koulibaly was playing against Messi and Suarez, maybe wait a little bit to see what Maguire will do against these ?
 
lex talionis said:
Even with quite a few keeper howlers this season our goals conceded in the league was pretty impressive, just off Liverpool. Unless there’s a prodigy on the doorstep of greatness I wouldn’t spend big on a CB this summer. Give Tuanzebe, Bailly and Fosu-Mensah a chance to push out Lindelof, who’s actually grown nicely into the job. But yes, Maguire and Lindelof are quite a step down from Rio and Vidic.

Spend big on Sancho and bring in cover for Matic. Clear out deadwood like Jones, and as we have with Sanchez.
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While De Gea's mistakes are by far the most memorable, most of our goals still come from defensive errors. I can't wait for Deano to get his chance, he's a caf favourite and will quickly expose the shortcomings of our CBs when people finally take off their tinted glasses.
 
sammsky1 said:
:confused: I mean WTF?!



So basically you invent false grievances to fit your warped perception of reality and then randomly accuse people of being racist, but actually it's just you who is full of crap?

As for the rest, try reading the entire thread before you share your wisdom?
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Well it's simple you tell me why 2 black players who are without doubt world class defenders are described as hipsters compared to two white players who are clearly not world class ?

OP seems to think people rate them because they think it's cool and they are not as good as Maguire and Lindelof which is fecking laughable .

I just don't understand either his point or why he is calling them hipsters or why he decided to single those two players out on the basis of what appears to be one performance .

It is a joke of a thread and there is clearly some prejudice against them which I have to wonder why that is
 
lsd said:
Well it's simple you tell me why 2 black players who are without doubt world class defenders are described as hipsters compared to two white players who are clearly not world class ?
OP seems to think people rate them because they think it's cool and they are not as good as Maguire and Lindelof which is fecking laughable .
I just don't understand either his point or why he is calling them hipsters or why he decided to single those two players out on the basis of what appears to be one performance .
It is a joke of a thread and there is clearly some prejudice against them which I have to wonder why that is
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Wow. That's quite an allegation.

If you dont understand the post, perhaps you are too limited in your thinking. All opinions have been explained through the thread. You're welcome to state yours. Also I stated in OP that world class ball playing defenders include Rio, VDV and Kompany. Yet the post is racist???

The only clear point out of this conversation is you have some deep personal issues that you project onto anything you read. 'Prejudice' or 'race' seems to dominate your entire world view. Perhaps it's worth you doing some serious self introspection and sorting it out.
 
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I am a fan of Varane and was surprised how poor he was yesterday. I don’t think it was just the two big mistakes, it was also that he (nor the rest) couldn’t handle the press at all.

Koulibaly has not been that good this season and I would not trade him for Lindelof or Maguire. Maybe as backup but we really don’t need another injury prone backup and there is a risk that’s the direction Koulibaly is taking.
 
Thiagoal said:
I don’t think there are any elite defenders playing the game at the moment. When I think of the likes of Jaap, Rio and Vidic their ability was on another planet. It’s why VVD stands out as a great defender so much, yet, in Rio’s day, he wouldn’t be top five.
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People always think players were better back in days. In general, the best players 15 years ago had what it took to be best at that time, for the type of football being played at that time. Some players today would maybe make it to top 5 then, just like some of the best at that time would maybe make it to top 5 today. The game changes all the time and today you don’t need exactly the type of players you did 15 years ago.
 
lsd said:
Well it's simple you tell me why 2 black players who are without doubt world class defenders are described as hipsters compared to two white players who are clearly not world class ?

OP seems to think people rate them because they think it's cool and they are not as good as Maguire and Lindelof which is fecking laughable .

I just don't understand either his point or why he is calling them hipsters or why he decided to single those two players out on the basis of what appears to be one performance .

It is a joke of a thread and there is clearly some prejudice against them which I have to wonder why that is
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It’s a pretty strange thread to he honest, but it’s been fun.

However, suggesting there is any racist connotations to the original post is beyond ludicrous.

I for one rate Maguire higher than KK, I’ll argue that all day long, but also respect an alternative opinion. It has sweet FA to do with race - if you think it does then there’s really something wrong with your own perspective and your own outlook.
 
What is it with all these emo thread these days with absurd overreactions to criticisms.

Yeah it must be agenda driven that other people have different opinions on a players quality. As for making a comparison based off a couple of games and then calling others agenda driven ffs.
 
A-man said:
I am a fan of Varane and was surprised how poor he was yesterday. I don’t think it was just the two big mistakes, it was also that he (nor the rest) couldn’t handle the press at all.
Koulibaly has not been that good this season and I would not trade him for Lindelof or Maguire. Maybe as backup but we really don’t need another injury prone backup and there is a risk that’s the direction Koulibaly is taking.
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That's also what surprised me. I don't watch him regularly but am well aware of his achievements and reputation. He is still just 27, so should be at his peak. And yet he exhibited none of that across the game.

Of course the greatest defenders make the odd mistake, but those are usually contextualised within an otherwise exemplary performance. I didn't see anything redeeming in Varane's play yesterday that justified his reputation.

Given that you know him far better than I do, what do you think the issue is?
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Why does anyone care about how they were perceived last summer. Why not look at now? Clearly this season is the most important barometer of how good a player is, that’s not to ignore the past, although you seem to ignore Maguires form that meant the 2 Manchester clubs were interested in him for over a year.

Buying Maguire ahead of KK last year was the right thing to do, as proved by this season - not a one off match, the entire season. No one even took the price tag of £100m remotely seriously.

If he was that good why have none of the big PL teams, Barcelona, PSG, Juventus, Real Madrid even been interested in him. The interest in him from Utd was all paper talk.

Would he have been as good as Maguire in the PL this season, highly doubtful.

Was our third best CB in Smalling better than him this season, yes. Says it all.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player, but no one is interested in him as a big money signing. As I’ve said previously, he has massive flop written all over him if anyone stumped up for him.
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The 90 mil price tag ADL even mention 100-120 mil was always going to put people away from him, KK himself isn't desperate for a move, and most of those teams already have defenders, PSG Marq/Silva, Juve Chiellini/Bouncci/de Ligt, Madrid Var/Ramos and Barcelona couldn't afford him since they blew most there budget on Greiz, PL teams Arsenal/Chelsea/Pool/Spurs aren't paying that amount, City were at there foreign player limit, hence why they had to add Danilo in the swap deal for Cancelo.
 
sammsky1 said:
That's also what surprised me. I don't watch him regularly but am well aware of his achievements and reputation. He is still just 27, so should be at his peak. And yet he exhibited none of that across the game.

Of course the greatest defenders make the odd mistake, but those are usually contextualised within an otherwise exemplary performance. I didn't see anything redeeming in Varane's play yesterday that justified his reputation.

Given that you know him far better than I do, what do you think the issue is?
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I used to watch almost every RM game but this season I haven’t seen much, but what I’ve seen has been good. My personal theory is that the press in PL is extreme, and some top teams from other leagues can not handle it. However I expected RM to be able to handle it better.
 
sammsky1 said:
Wow. That's quite an allegation.

If you dont understand the post, perhaps you are too limited in your thinking. All opinions have been explained through the thread. You're welcome to state yours. Also I stated in OP that world class ball playing defenders include Rio, VDV and Kompany. Yet the post is racist???

The only clear point out of this conversation is you have some deep personal issues that you project onto anything you read. 'Prejudice' or 'race' seems to dominate your entire world view. Perhaps it's worth you doing some serious self introspection and sorting it out.
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So you can't explain anything about the OP and using the word hipster
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Not sure how 10m will make it any difference for FFP investigation. Anymore lame excuse you got?
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Sure, maybe they should have paid over the odds like you did. Don't think Pep is losing any sleep over it.

It's also hilarious that you're using this sequence of events as an argument in Maguire's favour - Pep went to Napoli for Koulibaly and was quoted an obscene price. He then went to Leicester and was quoted an obscene price that was lower. He then tried a competitive offer for Maguire and was rebuffed. Therefore, Maguire>Koulibaly??

I feel like I'm talking to an underpants gnome.
Step 1: Pep tried to bid on Maguire!
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Maguire is better than Koulibaly!
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Sure, maybe they should have paid over the odds like you did. Don't think Pep is losing any sleep over it.

It's also hilarious that you're using this sequence of events as an argument in Maguire's favour - Pep went to Napoli for Koulibaly and was quoted an obscene price. He then went to Leicester and was quoted an obscene price that was lower. He then tried a competitive offer for Maguire and was rebuffed. Therefore, Maguire>Koulibaly??

I feel like I'm talking to an underpants gnome.
Step 1: Pep tried to bid on Maguire!
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Maguire is better than Koulibaly!
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Pep didn’t go to Napoli for Koulibaly last summer, his target was Maguire.

So far I'm just letting you to come out with anything to defend your argument but you keep making things up which favour towards me. May be if you can stop embarrassing yourself with BS, it'll be good for your own sake.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Pep didn’t go to Napoli for Koulibaly last summer, his target was Maguire.

So far I'm just letting you to come out with anything to defend your argument but you keep making things up which favour towards me. May be if you can stop embarrassing yourself with BS, it'll be good for your own sake.
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https://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Seri...ferta-95-milioni-koulibaly-340179634052.shtml

Anything else you've got? Pep is obviously not stupid enough to go for Maguire over Koulibaly and he didn't.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
https://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Seri...ferta-95-milioni-koulibaly-340179634052.shtml

Anything else you've got? Pep is obviously not stupid enough to go for Maguire over Koulibaly and he didn't.
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https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/man-city-transfer-news-koulibaly-16476337

But the simple fact is that City have NO interest in Koulibaly – he is not even on a short-list of centre backs they drew up after the departure of Vincent Kompany .

The Blues do need a replacement, and Harry Maguire remains the prime target – now it comes down to whether City are prepared to break the world record for a defender by splashing out around £80million.
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Prove from the man himself he wanted Maguire.



https://www.skysports.com/football/...-city-set-to-match-utds-70m-harry-maguire-bid

Tough day for you mate.
 
OL29 said:
I don’t think you know what hipster means.
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I know. IIrc, they also referred to Poch as a hipster choice. As far as I can tell, "hipster" is being used to describe anyone outside of United who is rated higher than someone at United.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/man-city-transfer-news-koulibaly-16476337



Prove from the man himself he wanted Maguire.



https://www.skysports.com/football/...-city-set-to-match-utds-70m-harry-maguire-bid

Tough day for you mate.
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??? Never said he didn't want him but clearly he was the backup plan.

1. Pep goes to Napoli asking for Koulibaly. Is quoted an insane price.
2. City go to Leicester for Maguire. Get quoted a lower but still insane price. Get outbid.

Regardless, this is an unprecedented level of preciousness - cannot believe that you are so sensitive about your players that a simple statement of fact like "last summer, Koulibaly was universally regarded as better and more valuable" has your knickers in such a twist.
 
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