‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf

[Yagami]

Pleasure chatting with you mate, apologies if I came across as needlessly hostile.

For me the prioritsation depends a bit on who you can shift on this summer - that said I'd be more comfortable with McTominay and Fred as deeper-lying players than with Lingard or Mata as attacking midfielders, so I'd lean towards Grealish.

No need to apologise, mate! I may have come across the same way which wasn't my intention either. It's hard to decipher when it's just plain text.

That's my thinking in regards to our midfield situation, too. I think we need both types of midfielder (considering Matic's age who I think is still our best sitting midfielder) but an injury to Bruno and/or Pogba and we're in trouble.

 

[sammsky1]

Random fact for this thread:

Koulibali as a surname means: the descendant of one who crossed without a canoe.

 

[Andersonson]

What is a hipster CB?

De ligt

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

No need to apologise, mate! I may have come across the same way which wasn't my intention either. It's hard to decipher when it's just plain text.

That's my thinking in regards to our midfield situation, too. I think we need both types of midfielder (considering Matic's age who I think is still our best sitting midfielder) but an injury to Bruno and/or Pogba and we're in trouble.

Agreed re: plain text. Need some sarcasm filters!

Hope you have a great night mate!

 

[Eckers99]

That's exactly my point. Unless you have a concrete argument then it's all just opinions. And it's well established that opinions are rather like assholes.

Chelsea have got more of them?

 

[SadlerMUFC]

36 goals isn't particularly impressive especially when you consider we had our first choice back 5 fit for the majority of the season. Maguire has shown nothing to say he's one of the best defenders in the world. He's had a good season but there are serious flaws in his game and its one of the main reasons people want us to sign another CB. Being perfectly honest, there's been little in it between him and Lindelof this season but because he's our captain and cost £80m, his place will go unchallenged. If Lindelof isn't one of the best defenders in the world (he isn't) then neither is Maguire.

I also find it difficult to say he's one of the best in the world when he hasn't come up against players in the CL.

He has come up against some of the best in a little tournament bigger than the Champions League and did fantastically well. As for him not showing he's one of the best in the world, compare his stats to VVD and you will quickly realize just how wrong you are as Maguire's stats are very similar and in some areas, they are better. Lindeloff doesn't even compare statistically but for some reason people want to say he does. Not sure why. Because he cost less??? Have a look for yourself...

------------------Tckl----Blk---Int--Clr---HdClr----Rec---DW---DL---50/50---ABW---ABL
Maguire-------37------6-----72---157---94-------237--240--128---8---------176-----71
Virgil VD-----23------5------40--162----83------220----239--81----3---------191------60
Lindeloff----29------1------26---122---58------215----135--78----4----------96-------50

Legend: Tckl=Tackles, Blk=Blocks, Int=Interceptions, Clr=Clearances, HdClr=Headed Clearances, Rec=Recoveries, DW=Duals Won, DL=Duals Lost, ABW=Arial Battles Won, ABL=Arial Battles Lost

https://www.premierleague.com/players/9566/Harry-Maguire/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5140/Virgil-van-Dijk/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5066/Victor-Lindelöf/stats?co=1&se=274

As you can see, it's not even close between Maguire and Lindeloff in most departments. It's kind of close with Maguire and VVD, but it's not the Dutchman who's leading the way in most categories. Difference is, Maguire gets scapegoated and when he makes a mistake it is thrown under the microscope for all to see. He's not perfect. Nobody is. But he is in fact one of the best in the world in his position. Some people just happen to have an agenda against him for some odd reason...

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Chelsea have got more of them?

Well played!

 

[harms]

But watching these super elite centre backs in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give them credit.

It's weird that you're trying to reevaluate certain players by watching others.

P.S. Koulibali got schooled by Messi tonight? He clearly is a fraud then, same as Rio, Vidić, Boateng, Ramos and pretty much every modern CB. I genuinely don't even want to imagine what their encounter with Maguire would look like.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Yes, of course. Unlike most, I've actually watched a lot of Serie A and Napoli in general, and don't just base my opinions on players off hype, and when you watch the player - regardless of it being this season or last - he hasn't been as good as Maguire.

You are absolutely correct. I watch a lot of Serie A as well and I've never quite understood the love afair with Koudibali. He's good, but he's not great and is caught out of position a lot. He ends up making a lot of highlight reel tackles because he is very athletic and has the pace to sometimes make up for his positioning errors. Kind of like Bailley, but bigger. Mind you, he is better than Bailley positionally, but you get the point (I think). Maguire is a much better player. But most United supporters on TheCaf tend to think "the grass is greener elsewhere". Look at their love afair with Smalling. While he was here he was slated all the time and only a little better than Phil Jones. He's gone to Serie A for one season and all of a sudden many seem to think he's the best defender we have...

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You are absolutely correct. I watch a lot of Serie A as well and I've never quite understood the love afair with Koudibali. He's good, but he's not great and is caught out of position a lot. He ends up making a lot of highlight reel tackles because he is very athletic and has the pace to sometimes make up for his positioning errors. Kind of like Bailley, but bigger. Mind you, he is better than Bailley positionally, but you get the point (I think). Maguire is a much better player. But most United supporters on TheCaf tend to think "the grass is greener elsewhere". Look at their love afair with Smalling. While he was here he was slated all the time and only a little better than Phil Jones. He's gone to Serie A for one season and all of a sudden many seem to think he's the best defender we have...

Yes, no doubts you're familiar with that well known top class centre half "Koudibali"

 

[harms]

Yes, no doubts you're familiar with that well known top class centre half "Koudibali"

You don't know him? He's like Bailley, but bigger.

 

[Wicked_Badger]

Maguire & Lindleof are decent defenders. Obviously not world class like Rio/Vida/Stam, but fairly good.

There are few around just now that would be a massive improvement on them, imo. Sure, some are better. But there are a lot at similar levels/worse.

Finding a world class centre back pairing is really, really hard. Usually there’s only one, maybe two around at a time, and they tend to hoover up honours like nobodies business until they decline/are broken up.

SAF figures this out early on in his career and it’s why he focussed on that department first and foremost and we’ve had a string of great partnerships.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You don't know him? He's like Bailley, but bigger.

Also from a different West African nation, Senegarf

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

De ligt

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

This video just argues against your point - before MdL gets nutmegged, his CB partner gives the ball away needlessly and then compounds the error by diving in instead of dropping back.

Point being, any CB can look a mug if you take a clip, you need to look at the broader body of work (ideally over multiple seasons / defensive systems) to have an idea of who is good and who isn't.

 

[glazed]

You know when you have a world class centre back in your team. The whole team feels it. The fans feel it. Rio, Des Walker, van Dijk. Getting past those guys was hard. I would love to have one but we don't.

 

[lsd]

Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre backs in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give them credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is natural as ball playing defenders, such as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.

They are much better too

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I actually think Maguire is better than both Varane and Koulibaly now(or at least on a similar level), but Varane has always looked suspect without Ramos and Koulibaly has declined from 2-3 seasons again.

Still odd to start this thread after a singular game.

 

[RedSky]

De Ligt is a kid, of course he's going to make errors, he's still learning his trade.

Koulibaly is an interesting one though, forget about tonights performance, nobody should feel ashamed if they get wrecked by Messi. But Napoli have way under performed this season and conceded a surprising amount of goals. Still think he'd be a good player to bring in for someone in the Premier League, but there is a risk attached bringing in someone to a league they've never played before having just had a mediocre season and only one year away from hitting 30. You're basically signing him for one contracts worth.

 

[tenpoless]

Hipster CB. Oldies CB. Jazz CB.

 

[Charles Miller]

So, if what Ekeke said is correct, Smalling finished Serie A as the second best CB in terms of numbers, behind Godin. It gives some persective.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Yes, no doubts you're familiar with that well known top class centre half "Koudibali"

Didn't say I knew how to spell it. But seeing as you're on spell check duty around here, you're going to be quite busy...

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

This video just argues against your point - before MdL gets nutmegged, his CB partner gives the ball away needlessly and then compounds the error by diving in instead of dropping back.

Point being, any CB can look a mug if you take a clip, you need to look at the broader body of work (ideally over multiple seasons / defensive systems) to have an idea of who is good and who isn't.

What point?

Napoli also was never in contention for the league & UCL. Napoli conceded 50 goals this season, you made it sounds like Koulibally wasn't struggling in Serie A. Even De Ligt has been struggling in serie A but people don't notice because their names are not Harry Maguire.

If anything the point that I made is even stronger from the clip. People don't notice such a mistake from De Ligt & Koulibally because their names are not Harry Maguire.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Racist much ?

They are much better too

How was what he said racist???

 

[Ekeke]

I dont get why people are saying Varane makes mistakes without Ramos.

He makes mistakes with Ramos too. Their defense was funny to watch last season.

This was last year against Levante



This was the team

So yeah, Varane is just a defender that makes a fair amount of mistakes. I doubt he would have been rated as highly if he wasnt at Madrid. He also gets away with mistakes sometimes because of his pace

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I will just leave this here. Maguire vs Victor "he's just as good as Maguire" Lindeloff and vs Virgil "he's the best in the world" Van Dijk. If your agenda is to put Maguire down, then explain these stats...

------------------Tckl----Blk---Int--Clr---HdClr----Rec---DW---DL---50/50---ABW---ABL
Maguire-------37------6-----72---157---94-------237--240--128---8---------176-----71
Virgil VD-----23------5------40--162----83------220----239--81----3---------191------60
Lindeloff----29------1------26---122---58------215----135--78----4----------96-------50

Legend: Tckl=Tackles, Blk=Blocks, Int=Interceptions, Clr=Clearances, HdClr=Headed Clearances, Rec=Recoveries, DW=Duals Won, DL=Duals Lost, ABW=Arial Battles Won, ABL=Arial Battles Lost

https://www.premierleague.com/players/9566/Harry-Maguire/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5140/Virgil-van-Dijk/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5066/Victor-Lindelöf/stats?co=1&se=274

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Most people who hype up Koulibaly have never seen him play but because he’s good on fifa.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

What point?

If anything the point that I made is even stronger from the clip. People don't notice such a mistake from De Ligt & Koulibally because their names are not Harry Maguire.

Sorry my mistake; had a brainfart and thought you'd started the thread. My broader point is that all CBs have feckups; arguing that one is better than another on the basis of a single performance is silly.

 

[arthurka]

Now I have seen everything... Sorry but Lindelöf isn't anywhere near being a great CB.. Would take anyone mentioned there over him anyday..

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Sorry my mistake; had a brainfart and thought you'd started the thread. My broader point is that all CBs have feckups; arguing that one is better than another on the basis of a single performance is silly.

But Koulibally has been worse than Maguire this season anyway.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

But Koulibally has been worse than Maguire this season anyway.

Yes but Koulibaly has been vastly superior to Maguire for the past 3+ years, to the point where a comparison would be laughable. Obviously when evaluating two players the most recent performances should be more heavily weighted, but that said there's still no world in which Maguire is actually the better of the two given the broader context.

 

[KristianMackle]

We can't continue with Lindelof next to Maguire next season. Lindelof is not awful but that partnership is simply not going to take us to the. next level. We need a more physical and faster CB next to Maguire to secure that backline.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Yes but Koulibaly has been vastly superior to Maguire for the past 3+ years, to the point where a comparison would be laughable. Obviously when evaluating two players the most recent performances should be more heavily weighted, but that said there's still no world in which Maguire is actually the better of the two given the broader context.

The past 3 years don't matter if player isn't performing now, there is a reason why he was labelled 130m last summer. However, Koulibally's is touted as 80m this summer that's what all matter now, a 29 years old centre back who performed worse than Maguire is labelled as 80m.

Anyone who follow Serie A will know even if you don't, can try to look at the rating to convince yourself that Maguire has 7.12 rating in whoscored while Koulibaly has 6.72 rating.

 

[lsd]

How was what he said racist???

Yeah not racist so much as i can't actually think of another word for it but a weird kind of prejudice nevertheless using the words hipsters to decribe two players from a different league plus the whole tone of it.

Not to mention he seemed to judge the pair on one performance

 

[MattofManchester]

I hate this idea of comparing centre backs to see who's better and whatnot. What exactly does it prove?

Nevermind that Koulibaly plays for fecking Napoli. The esteem that's he's held in compared to that of a Manchester United player are far different. There is more expected here.

In the case of Varane, he's proven himself over the years.

Maguire has been here for one year. He still needs to prove himself as Manchester United quality.

They're not comparable. Any of them, other than for the fact that they're defenders.

On the topic of Maguire, I think a lot of people complain about the 80m we spent because they believe that we could have got someone better for that kind of money. That's their opinion. They're entitled to it.
In the same way I'm still not sold on Maguire. In my opinion, I judge World Class Man United players by whether I could see them being part of a Champions League winning team. The best of Europe, not just their League. I can't see Maguire being that kind of player to lead from the back on that kind of stage. I could be wrong, but that's just where I'm at on Maguire.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

The past 3 years don't matter if player isn't performing now, there is a reason why he was labelled 130m last summer. However, Koulibally's is touted as 80m this summer that's what all matter now, a 29 years old centre back who performed worse than Maguire is labelled as 80m.

So when evaluating players as a neutral, you'd discount the experience of a player (call him player A) who for the 3 years prior was involved with title races in Serie A, consistent CL appearances, and was universally lauded as a top player at his position versus a player B who in the 3 years prior was poor enough to be loaned out from one championship club to another championship club during a promotion push, got relegated with the parent club upon being promoted, then played for a 9th place side. Given all of that context, having seen one season subsequently where the latter player did better whilst playing in a settled system under one manager, you'd be comfortable saying that player B is better?

Utter madness.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Yeah not racist so much as i can't actually think of another word for it but a weird kind of prejudice nevertheless using the words hipsters to decribe two players from a different league plus the whole tone of it.

Not to mention he seemed to judge the pair on one performance

You couldn't think of the right word so you decided on "racist"? WTF???

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I too am happy with the partnership of Lindelof and Maguire, and I feel Ole is too, hence why it seems he wants a backup centre-back, as opposed to bringing someone in to replace Lindelof.

Yes, it has its faults. There's weaknesses to exploit in every backline, and ours seems to be a lack of pace, but in terms of out and out defending, I think they're strong enough to challenge.

This season was their first full season together, and statistically, we had the third-best defence in the league. A good partnership needs time, and I can only imagine the two will get better if given it.

 

[jesperjaap]

Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre backs in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give them credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is natural as ball playing defenders, such as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.

What absolute tosh. So you are judging our defenders against awful performances from the players you mentioned? i have never seen Varane play so badly in my life. And waht exactly is an elite hipster centre back anyway? You mention the rumoured price of Koulibaly and that is pretty much the exact price we paid for Maguire so is he an elite hipster centre back?

Maguire is a decent centre back, he isnt one of the best in the world though. As for Lindelof, personally dont think there is a need to compare him to the world most valuable centre backs as we didnt pay that kind of price for him but yes there are a lot of centre backs in my opinion that are far better than Lindelof....in our own league let alone throughout Europe

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

So when evaluating players as a neutral, you'd discount the experience of a player (call him player A) who for the 3 years prior was involved with title races in Serie A, consistent CL appearances, and was universally lauded as a top player at his position versus a player B who in the 3 years prior was poor enough to be loaned out from one championship club to another championship club during a promotion push, got relegated with the parent club upon being promoted, then played for a 9th place side. Given all of that context, having seen one season subsequently where the latter player did better whilst playing in a settled system under one manager, you'd be comfortable saying that player B is better?

Utter madness.

It's about now not overall. Why are you trying so hard to move the goal post to suit your argument? Simple, the player is touted for 80m this summer and the point is simple, it's such a high cost fees & big risk for a 29 years old centre back who is performing poor this season.

By applying your logic may be Chelsea should spend 80m on Chiellini now due to his performance for the 5 years.