Yes, of course. Unlike most, I've actually watched a lot of Serie A and Napoli in general, and don't just base my opinions on players off hype, and when you watch the player - regardless of it being this season or last - he hasn't been as good as Maguire.You had Maguire as being better than Koulibaly last year?
‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf
- Thread starter sammsky1
- Start date
I am happy with what we got. Just wish our backups could stay fit. Been more frustrated with De Gea and our fullbacks lack of ability in attack.
Reality is there aren’t really ANY centre backs in the world other than Van Dijk that are genuinely world class these days and even Van Dijk hasn’t been as good this year as he was last year.
I think the Rio/Vidic partnership was the last time in world football that we saw two genuine world class centre backs playing alongside each other and I think it’ll be a long time before we see it again due to the dearth in talent in centre backs.
Neither Maguire or Lindelof are as good as Van Dijk but how many are better than them in the league in general ? In theory it’s a great idea to go and sign Koulibaly or Varane but both might take a year to adapt and even then there’s no saying that they would, how many genuine world class players have come to England and struggled but been fine again as soon as they left our league ?
The main problem with the Lindelof/Maguire partnership is a lack of pace and either of them had that then I doubt they’d be a better partnership in Europe, it’s definitely a position we can upgrade on but not a priority such as right wing and a defensive midfielder with lots of stamina.
People may slate me for saying it but I still think Smalling is a better partner for Maguire than Lindelof because Smalling is a pure no frills defender who does the basics well but what he does offer is pace and great in the air which is Lindelof’s two main weaknesses, I know he’s not great with the ball at his feet but let Maguire be the ball playing centre back and Matic or a new defensive midfielder bring that ball out from the back and let Smalling simply defend and cover with his pace.
I think the Rio/Vidic partnership was the last time in world football that we saw two genuine world class centre backs playing alongside each other and I think it’ll be a long time before we see it again due to the dearth in talent in centre backs.
Neither Maguire or Lindelof are as good as Van Dijk but how many are better than them in the league in general ? In theory it’s a great idea to go and sign Koulibaly or Varane but both might take a year to adapt and even then there’s no saying that they would, how many genuine world class players have come to England and struggled but been fine again as soon as they left our league ?
The main problem with the Lindelof/Maguire partnership is a lack of pace and either of them had that then I doubt they’d be a better partnership in Europe, it’s definitely a position we can upgrade on but not a priority such as right wing and a defensive midfielder with lots of stamina.
People may slate me for saying it but I still think Smalling is a better partner for Maguire than Lindelof because Smalling is a pure no frills defender who does the basics well but what he does offer is pace and great in the air which is Lindelof’s two main weaknesses, I know he’s not great with the ball at his feet but let Maguire be the ball playing centre back and Matic or a new defensive midfielder bring that ball out from the back and let Smalling simply defend and cover with his pace.
Right, *tips fedora*.
Just curious as to exactly what you'd base this on beyond your keen eye for scouting, especially considering Napoli conceded 12 fewer goals and finished 7 places above Leicester in their respective leagues last year. Also whilst playing in the CL.
Yes it is easier to defend and attack for the teams at the top because they are playing against inferior opponents. There is a simple explanation of those teams dominating in Europe, which is they are still very good teams. Champions League is contested by the best around the European leagues, that is not a representation of the entire league quality.Ahh okay, this is another one of those "Premier League is much harder than La Liga" things? Carry on, I've seen this one before
Maguire / Lindelof didn't struggle against City though as we beat them twice this season with only conceded 1 goal. That's also the difference.
I'd argue there's a fundamental difference between league matches and CL matches (especially when, no offence, you were never in contention for the league).
Kouliballi has been poor this season but Varane has been solid with Real and their title winner was down to their defense Varane & Ramos partnership.
Napoli also was never in contention for the league & UCL. Napoli conceded 50 goals this season, you made it sounds like Koulibally wasn't struggling in Serie A. Even De Ligt has been struggling in serie A but people don't notice because their names are not Harry Maguire.
Perhaps in isolation - but you completely ignored this season and didn’t use it along with his time @ Leicester and Hull. Is that because it doesn’t support your agreement/ bias?
Don't think this is accurate especially given the changed format. Anyone can win over 90 minutes and it was 1-1 between Napoli & Barca coming into today.
Of course I don't think Napoli were great this year, but equating Napoli's struggles to "Koulibaly is worse than Maguire" is just ridiculous given the turmoil behind the scenes. Yes, the most recent data should be weighted more heavily, but personally I don't think this outweighs the past 3-4 years of their careers and especially when one of the two played in a settled side all season.
I think you're underrating just how good Maguire was last season. He got United and City both chasing him after that season.
i never base a players individual talent on where their team as a whole finishes/plays. For a current example, I'd much rather have Grealish than van de beek (which those are the two we seem to be looking at) and vdb has been playing at a much higher level than Grealish these past couple of years. With Ajax having CL footy 'n' all.
I wanted Maguire from Hull before he moved to Leicester anyway, so it wasn't based off one season. I had been a big fan for a long time prior to us signing him. Sometimes a player just catches your eye and, bar van Dijk at Southampton where I said Liverpool were getting a hell of a deal whilst most were laughing, Maguire is the only other CB to do that to me. So far, when you look at our goals conceded stat compared to last year - even with de Gea costing us time and time again - I think I was right in my rating of him.
Because one did better in one league after being worse for 3 years while also not playing at the highest level of competition - sure you could argue Maguire has been better this season but it's a messy comparison and hardly convincing.
The two leagues are not comparable, and even if they were, this by any stretch of the imagination is a ridiculous argument.
Grealish and VdB don't even play the same position, what are you on about?
Also, I can't recall a single person who was arguing against the signing of VVD. Unless you're limiting things to the echo chamber of this forum, that was universally lauded as a good move.
Koulibally has been poor this season not just based on Barcelona game, if his name is Harry Maguire, he would be smashed in the media for all his mistakes this season. No need to be complicated.
36 goals isn't particularly impressive especially when you consider we had our first choice back 5 fit for the majority of the season. Maguire has shown nothing to say he's one of the best defenders in the world. He's had a good season but there are serious flaws in his game and its one of the main reasons people want us to sign another CB. Being perfectly honest, there's been little in it between him and Lindelof this season but because he's our captain and cost £80m, his place will go unchallenged. If Lindelof isn't one of the best defenders in the world (he isn't) then neither is Maguire.
I also find it difficult to say he's one of the best in the world when he hasn't come up against players in the CL.
That's exactly my point. Unless you have a concrete argument then it's all just opinions. And it's well established that opinions are rather like assholes.
Yes because obviously it's always better to be simple than to actually think things through
So you’ve just ignored an entire season, and the most recent season just to support your argument. That’s somewhat amusing.
Koulibally has been poor this season, you are trying to twist his poor season so hard that's why I said you made it complicated. If player played poor is poor, no need for excuse.
Of course I haven't ignored it. I just wouldn't say that Maguire is better on the basis of one season when nothing in their history suggests that's the correct choice.
Not arguing that. I'm not trying to twist anything, you lot are grasping at straws to argue Maguire is somehow a top CB in Europe because he was better this year than an established top CB who also underwent significant turmoil at club level and still was involved in higher stakes matches.
Yet a hell of a lot better than the season before, the main change ing Maguire.
I’m not sure why this thread had turned into a Varane, KK vs Maguire Thread. Varane was appalling last night, but these things happen, and it happens to the best defenders on occasion.
In terms of KK, like most I don’t watch that many Napoli games, but objectively he’s been average all season. I wouldn’t swap him for Maguire, and I’m really not sure many people would. We actually have a decent CB, that’s not been injured all season, I wouldn’t swap him for a player that’s unproven at the top level, and never played in the PL aged 29, who is coming off the back of a poor season.
Indeed. But I was talking over the last few years when he’s been the best defender in Serie A over the course of that period. I reckon the ship has sailed on a move here, given Napoli will want top dollar yet he’s both getting on and this campaign shown signs of decline. But 2-3 years ago when the rumours started it would have been a hugely influential signing.
Everyone makes excuses for players they like. No such thing as no excuses.
It's a common question - Grealish or VdB - on here. We're looking like we're going to sign one CM and it looks to be between those two. It may not end up being either, but that's been the question for a while on here.
And, if you look at the thread on here at the time, plenty on here were saying it was poor business from Liverpool. I mostly only reference stuff said on this forum, yeah. I don't listen/read anyone else's opinions on football, really. Aside from people I know outside of here.
Please don't try to move the goal post of the argument.
This is what you said:
And this is my response.
And this is your response.
And this is my response.
Koulibally has been poor this season not just based on one game and you tried so hard to find excuses for him because you believe league & CL matches are different. He's been poor in the league this season anyway, that's the reality.
Fair enough. I wouldn't class Grealish or VdB as being like-for-like - the former being a left-sided 8 / LW and the latter being a right-sided pivot midfielder / 6.
Re: VVD - I don't mean to be presumptuous but I think your opinion might have stood out given the natural instinct here to downplay anything the scouse are up to.
Chelsea fans lives in Portugal liked Koulibally? More like being clueless about Koulibally's performance this season.
All this is fine except you're ignoring the original context of this entire thread which is somehow comparing Maguire and Lindelof to Koulibaly on the basis of a single game
I'm actually American, lived in London for a spell in the mid-nineties as my dad was doing a sabbatical & fell in love with Chelsea, moved back to America and met a Portuguese whilst doing my PhD at Columbia, we've now moved to Lisbon.
Feel free to @ me though in your future posts; happy to defend my takes.
It’s not a single game though is it.
Pretty much everyone will agree Maguire has been a better CB than Koulibaly this season. Yes, that’s across an entire season.
The poster clearly mentioned about Koulibally this summer being tounted around 80m. Clearly his point was correct about Koulibally being overpriced due to his poor performance this season. What are you on about mate?
You're right about Grealish/VdB. I guess it just depends on the type or midfielder Ole deems more important.
Ha, you're probably right about the van Dijk part, too!
Whether you are an American or lived in London or whatever, it doesn't change my point that you are clueless about Koulibally has been poor this season until someone told you so.
My point is that looking at solely the past season's performance is silly. Why limit yourself to a smaller dataset? I took issue with the OP going on about how players going for £80m should be flawless and using this as a stick to beat Koulibaly with despite the fact that Maguire actually cost £80m and has made his fair share of errors in matches with less pressure.
Of course I'm not clueless about Koulibaly; I've tracked him closely for years now given Chelsea's repeated attempts to sign him. Yes he's regressed but my point is given his track record and the external factors involved in Napoli's season, I'm more inclined to write it off as a fluke. Perhaps I'm wrong and this is a genuine regression; we'll just have to wait and see.
Pleasure chatting with you mate, apologies if I came across as needlessly hostile.
For me the prioritsation depends a bit on who you can shift on this summer - that said I'd be more comfortable with McTominay and Fred as deeper-lying players than with Lingard or Mata as attacking midfielders, so I'd lean towards Grealish.
You limit yourself by mentioning Koulibally was terrible against Barcelona while Maguire / Lindelof were terrible against Bournemouth. In reality, Koulibally was terrible against lesser team in Serie A while Maguire / Lindelof performed well against the top team in PL.
Remember, this is your first post.
Fair enough. It was a flippant post in response to what I considered a flippant thread. In the context of what I've posted, I can understand your perspective.
I’m not sure why Lindelof has so many critics, I think it is mainly from people who require their centre backs to be built like a brick shithouse and have a smashed up face. I see him make far fewer mistakes than Maguire.
Not sure why Varane is being mentioned here - we have zero chance of signing him.
Not sure why Varane is being mentioned here - we have zero chance of signing him.