İlkay Gündoğan
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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Didn't we announce two players in quick succession last summer? Shaw and then Herrera. This year its going to be Depay and Gundogan.
Hope he is next.
No, that is actually not the point. Gündogan isn´t a defensive liability.
Gündogan never played in the “carrick” role. He played alongside a classic DM/destroyer as mobile focal point of the team. He connected (defense), midfield and attack and he is able to contribute in all those areas. Using him as defensive anchor would seriously hamper him and doesn’t fit his natural game.
For all people who didn´t watch him frequently: The comparison with Modric (or with Schweinsteiger) is fairly helpful to understand his skill-set.
Could Modric anchor a midfield? He could probably do a decent job in this role; maybe not on the highest level but it wouldn´t be a disaster.
Should be play in this role? No. Modric can do so much more and restricting his movement/the space where we can play would be stupid. He is precisely the kind of player you want alongside a more defensive player to give your team great balance/control.
The general consensus seems to be that his defensive contribution has regressed to almost nothing, since the injury. As its taken his mobility away, and he's less inclined to get 'stuck in'.
It's not gone forever though I wouldn't say... He was never amazing defensively, but like Herrera, always put in a good solid shift. Now he's not quite as mobile but that's all part of his recovery I think, wouldn't be surprised to see him back to how he was before his injury next season, and if so, his defensive work would be fine. It's just that while he can be a Carrick replacement in some aspects, we'd still need a proper defensive player next to him. He'd provide Carrick's passing range, creativity, add more energy and runs going forward and better/quicker link up play alongside Herrera and some much needed depth, but we'd need like Vidal at the box to box position if we want Gundogan to be the holding midfielder, otherwise he'll probably be next to Herrera with another one behind them.
The general consensus of people who dont even know that he isnt a DM/holding midfielder?
Overall his contribution has regress to “very little” since the injury (except for a few games after coming back, where he played well). If any top club goes after him it’s not because of what he did this year, but because of what he potentially could do in good form.
For me he would replace Fellaini in the line up. I personally think we need two CMs, one to replace Carrick and another because we are very limited in our options there that with one injury, we end up playing Rooney as CM.
I'd agree with that. Thats why I'd like us to sign Gundogan and Schniderlin. That would give us plenty of options and different permutations.
Of the people that watch him regularly (mainly the Dortmund and Bayern fans on here) They pretty much all agree that he's never been a holding midfielder, and is even less likely to be post injury.
Scholes, Pirlo and Schweinsteiger all started in attacking positions before dropping deeper into midfield. In the case of Scholes, it was partly due to him losing some mobility, which seems to be the same concern that's currently hanging over Gundogan.
Defensive positioning is something that most players pick up with experience, particularly intelligent ones. The Gundogan of 2 years ago may have been wasted as a DM, but his current incarnation may be better suited to the role. LvG has already successfully changed the instincts of Herrera at United, and let's not forget what he did to Schweinsteiger as well.
Lots of conjecture in this post, I know.
Defensive positioning is something that most players pick up with experience, particularly intelligent ones. The Gundogan of 2 years ago may have been wasted as a DM, but his current incarnation may be better suited to the role. LvG has already successfully changed the instincts of Herrera at United, and let's not forget what he did to Schweinsteiger as well.
Lots of conjecture in this post, I know.
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He isn't a defensive liability, far from it. However, I wouldn't have him as the only defensive minded midfielder in the team. the way I imagine it is a more defensive cm like Vidal or Schneiderlin, a deep play-maker with some defensive responsibility like Gundogan then Herrera as the most advanced of the three. I don't know if that makes more sense because what you wrote is my view on things too. The thing with Carrick is he can offer both which is why I feel we need two cm's.
I'd personally like us to sign Gundogan and Carvalho from Sporting, who is a beast physically and would be a good apples to apples addition.
Hope we can wrap up the top 4 and Gundoghan on top of Depay quickly on both counts!
Hope we can wrap up the top 4 and Gundoghan on top of Depay quickly on both counts!
If we're going to sign this guy with the intention of easing him into the Carrick position, I'd personally sign Veratti. Veratti and Herrera's workrate and defensive contribution on either side of Gundogan sounds perfect to me
Yeah that's my thoughts too. He doesn't have the dynamic right now, maybe it will come back next year, maybe he has lost it after his injury, difficult to say right now. But maybe LvG thinks the current Gündogan could be a good fit for the more static Carrick role. Gündogan before his injury would be wasted in Carrick's position, no doubt about that.
I think we're getting a bit too hung up on the "Carrick position." With different players, the system will change, especially the dynamic of the midfield 3. The Carrick role is a single pivot at the base of the midfield. Gundogan can easily be one of a double pivot in something that approaches a 4-2-3-1.
We need someone for the Carrick position. Oh and while we're at it we need a DM, a Keane replacement, and a "midfield enforcer".
Sounds like Vidal.
None of that is Gündogan.
It was tongue and cheek. But yeah, i'd take Vidal in a heartbeat.
I'm sorry about that. I went full muppet mode on Vidal last summer and have yet to recover
Initial links and rumoured deal.
Nothing.
Rival clubs linked.
Nothing.
Everything goes quiet.
Woody swoops.
Sound a familiar chain of events?
Nothing.
Rival clubs linked.
Nothing.
Everything goes quiet.
Woody swoops.
Sound a familiar chain of events?
yeah, that's it and I also believe that we should aim for different kind of player let alone we won't find very similar players of Carrick's mould. Not sure if Gundogan is what we need but there are several posibilities how to set up midfield three. I guess one of the attributes LVG wants his midfielder to have is physical strength, which is why I quite doubt we are in for Gundogan. Countless times were playing with Fellaini and Rooney in midfield for that reason..
Schneiderlin or maybe Strootman before his injury would be both perfect.. even Vidal would be good... Let's wait and see
Schneiderlin and this guy would be perfect. Midfield options; Carrick,Blind,Schneiderlin,Gundogan,Herrera,Fellaini.
Lvg could also change his philosophy and play 433 with the middle player forwards, mata as the no 10 and vs smaller teams gundogan and herrera behind him (if Real can do it with 3 CAM of origine, we can too) and di Maria on Depay on the wings. In bigger matches Herrera as the no 10, and Blind/Carrick next to Gundogan.
I think that was when he said something along the lines of "If a deal was agreed I would think that I would know about it"
When asked about the rumoured move to United, he's laughing and asks back "Shouldn't I be the first one to know about it?". He's basically saying that there's nothing true about the rumours that a deal with United is already agreed on.
The whole article isn't worth discussing in my opinion. He says that he could see himself staying for the final year of his contract in Dortmund, rules out a move to Wolfsburg and says everything else is possible. So nothing new, even if we believe that he isn't lying (like countless other players in his situation did before).
Der Westen talked shit it seems.
Ah, ok. Thanks for the translation
Sunday Times are saying according to club sources a deal is in place to for Gundogan to join us.
We had this last week only to be denied by all sources.
Sunday Times don't usually do BS.....would be exactly what we need and a massive coup if they are right
Of course the club will deny it if a deal is already in place. LVG himself said finish all the games first then we can talk about transfers. He was forced on Depay because of PSG
Would be nice to wrap this up as quickly as we did with Depay
This guy isn't a Carrick replacement. If he comes in Herrera is being shifted around or is in direct competition. At his best a better player than Herrera but right now he isn't.
Years ago would have loved him but now not too sure.
Years ago would have loved him but now not too sure.
We can have both in a midfield three ahead of Carrick(or his replacement).
Yep - if we are signing Gundogan, we should expect another midfielder too for some Carrick cover/competition.
Exciting times though if it's true. The days of complaining about the lack of midfield signings are gone
He'd be a quality signing for us, as long as he the injuries are kept to a minimum.
Carrick
Gundogan Herrera
Gundogan Herrera
Even that would be a lovely midfield to see.
But a deal wasn't in place for Depay so denying was accurate as there wasn't a deal until his hand was forced. Dortmund are a different kettle of fish. There is no relationship with them as there is with PSV so I don't think they are desperate to sell him.
There is something in the story but I do believe it's a bit premature to assume he's ours. There could be other suitors
Given his injury layoff, I understand your concerns. But he's likely to move for a fee that makes it worth the risk. What's more, look at Vidal - it's possible to come back to your best form - sometimes it just requires patience. Hopefully, if we are in for him, we get it done nice and quickly and he gets the entire summer to work on his conditioning and his orientation at the club.
Gundogen won't replace Carrick directly, but he can replace some of the key attributes that Carrick brings to the team, such as his quick incisive passing and ability to control the tempo of a game.
Feels like this could be a done dealio. We're sorting out our business early this year.
Feels like this could be a done dealio. We're sorting out our business early this year.
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