Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Giggsy PO]

But then he goes on to say the Jews have the most rights to the land and then spends time saying how Palestinians don't have any rights to the land.

The point you seem to be missing is that he arguing semantics and also using centuries, even millenia old arguments and examples to defend the Jewish rights to the region. He then uses examples how Arabs turn their backs to Jerusalem to pray to Mecca and how their religion isn't tied to Jerusalem aside from the Muslims only wanting to claim it as it's competition to another religion.

Again, he's using religion and age old arguments that have no relevance to the issues today and again that's the point you seem to be missing. The argument he is using and you are promoting to defend what is happening today could be used by Native Americans to reclaim the USA or Mexico to reclaim California. Or countless other examples.

We could, and many here have debated and argued the history of the region and although it is complex and in my opinion, like most world history, fascinating, it doesn't relate to now, and it especially cannot be used now to defend the events since Israel was created.

As I said before, you using this type of evidence is just derailing the threads and absolutely avoiding the issues and problems of the last 76 years.

It is disingenuous distraction you are using and just ensures you can post here trying to gotcha others, yet you continually continue to ignore when you are tagged in response to posts with stories that you earlier ridiculed as fake news or Hamas lies and propaganda. Posts that contain stories that get proved to be true and that show the lies and propaganda or crimes and horrors committed by the IDF and Netanyahu. There are countless examples of this, especially in the first 4-5 months of this genocidal assault on Gaza and the West Bamk after the horrific and indefensible attacks on October 7th.

It's really obvious to many in here that you and the other guy who usually pops up around the same time as you, have carefully picked and chosen times to reply and things to attack. It's also true that especially in the first few months fake news was posted about Israel and the IDF. The trouble is, the absolute vast majority of it isn't and wasn't fake news. Whereas.the majority of fake news posted was actually by them or by their supporters.

In the last couple of months especially when the evidence against the IDF and Israel and Netanyahu and many Israeli citizens who are attacking the West Bank or blocking food aid, has become undeniable. The stories promoted.proved to be false or outright lies, the accusations of atrocities carried out proven to be credible.and true and the evidence of clear attacks against journalists, hospitals and civilians in refugee camps undeniable. Since then, you have both stopped posting anywhere near as frequently and stopped claiming stories of atrocities are fake. So now you turn to this bullshit of posting irrelevant videos that again are arguing semantics or history that few deny, in support of Israel and Israelis but that absolutely ignore what's going or the reason why.

It's just boring, pathetic and a disingenuous distraction.

Nothing you post ever mentions how the Palestinians have been treated since Israel was given after WWII. Nothing ever covers the land grabs, the tortures, murders, imprisonment, starvation, water and energy controls and restrictions, curfews, apartheid living conditions and general suffering and forceful continued stripping of Palestinians rights, land and will.

But yeah, post about how the Jews have more rights to the land and how the Muslims don't.

Like that bullshit is anyway a justification for the human rights violations and war crimes over the last 76 years or the fecking barbaric assault on refugee camps, the starvation of millions, the destruction of entire regions, towns and cities, the mass ethnic cleansing and genocide going on right now. Or the backing from the West especially the USA and UK or the pathetic international response or the fact Ireland have stood up with other countries to say enough is enough or the Maldives or Venezuela etc etc....

No just keep calling posters out for not replying in time to some bullshit that has absolutely no relevance to anything anyone else is discussing in this thread.

Man, you like to talk about me a lot. I do not remember calling posters out for not replying in time. Don’t you confuse me with somebody else?

The rest of your word salad I don’t see any argument, just repeated and rinsed positions and naratives (which you see as facts). You are more informed than former ICJ chief justice. She is probably also disengenous. You have better info than Haviv Gur. You are the moral pinnacle of the issue. But you won on word count. That is for sure.

 

[Pav1878]

Let's not go overboard here. That was a tragic incident that was probably the result of a trigger happy soldier or soldiers, but it did not indicate a lack of will to release hostages.

It's the government that's the problem.

overboard? Your post exemplifies the dire situation within the IDF and Israeli society as a whole.

Trigger happy soldiers shooting people with white flags. We have seen them do this multiple times to Palestinians holding white flags too.

Which type of ‘most moral army in the world’ does something like that?

Not wanting to take back the elderly ladies that Hamas offered to release. Why?

I think it’s clear that the hostages are not the priority of the Israeli government. Their main objective is to destroy Hamas and inflict as much death and destruction on Palestinian civilians and infrastructure as possible in the process.

 

[Amir]

overboard? Your post exemplifies the dire situation within the IDF and Israeli society as a whole.

Trigger happy soldiers shooting people with white flags. We have seen them do this multiple times to Palestinians holding white flags too.

Which type of ‘most moral army in the world’ does something like that?

Not wanting to take back the elderly ladies that Hamas offered to release. Why?

I think it’s clear that the hostages are not the priority of the Israeli government. Their main objective is to destroy Hamas and inflict as much death and destruction on Palestinian civilians and infrastructure as possible in the process.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this. Only with the claim that shooting the three hostags is an indication to not caring about the hostages.

If the soldiers thought they were hostages, they wouldn't have shot. Soldiers have been risking their lives trying to rescue hostages and some gave their lives to retrieve bodies.

The government is vile, parts of the Israeli society is blood thirsty and some soldiers are trigger happy - but that is what that incident indicated, not the lack of caring towards the hostages.

 

[Pav1878]

I'm not disagreeing with any of this. Only with the claim that shooting the three hostags is an indication to not caring about the hostages.

If the soldiers thought they were hostages, they wouldn't have shot. Soldiers have been risking their lives trying to rescue hostages and some gave their lives to retrieve bodies.

The government is vile, parts of the Israeli society is blood thirsty and some soldiers are trigger happy - but that is what that incident indicated, not the lack of caring towards the hostages.

I agree with what you say about Israeli society and the government.

However, when you say the soldiers wouldn’t have shot those three men if they had known they were hostages, can we infer that they shot them because they thought they were Palestinians? What kind of heroes who have been ‘risking their lives’, shoot people carrying white flags?

Please don’t try to paint the IDF as heroic because they are not. They are blood thirsty genocidal maniacs who have carried out war crimes and crimes against humanity for decades, not just since October 7th.

 

[Wilt]

Israel have been beheading babies. That is a fact. And we have seen the tapes.

President Biden and the rest lied about Hamas beheading babies.

Not a single mention of this anywhere ….but you’ve “seen the tapes” ?

 

[Ish]

Not a single mention of this anywhere ….but you’ve “seen the tapes” ?

Yeah, there were photos/videos doing the rounds after the missile strike on the civilian camp in Rafah. I think it was from the blast of the strike, and not actual physical decapitation iirc, (not that it makes it any better). But I could be wrong.

 

[Wilt]

Yeah, there were photos/videos doing the rounds after the missile strike on the civilian camp in Rafah.

Horrific story ….so why no mention anywhere?

 

[Ish]

Horrific story ….so why no mention anywhere?

Honestly, you'd probably need to ask much better informed posters then me, sadly . I'd go with the usual pro-Israel news reporting being a factor, but again, I'm not that informed and I'd hate to be spreading misinformation. I just did a quick google and there are a few stories around the babies story after the Rafah aftermath, but not many from any major news outlets as far as i can see.

 

[langster]

Man, you like to talk about me a lot. I do not remember calling posters out for not replying in time. Don’t you confuse me with somebody else?

The rest of your word salad I don’t see any argument, just repeated and rinsed positions and naratives (which you see as facts). You are more informed than former ICJ chief justice. She is probably also disengenous. You have better info than Haviv Gur. You are the moral pinnacle of the issue. But you won on word count. That is for sure.

The first post was quoting another poster by mistake. You didn't complain about nobody replying to you so for that I apologise. However the post I quoted was by a poster who has been tagging.you for time and asking why you continually ignore him and his questions. That right there is exactly my point. You post selectively and ignore others when they tag you and ask you questions.

As for the rest of your post it just proves my point even further. You can't discuss anything relevant just post sarcastic replies whilst ignoring things that have been well documented and backed up with evidence.

 

[erikcred]

However, when you say the soldiers wouldn’t have shot those three men if they had known they were hostages, can we infer that they shot them because they thought they were Palestinians? What kind of heroes who have been ‘risking their lives’, shoot people carrying white flags?

Yeah, that was a strange defence of their actions.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Man, you like to talk about me a lot. I do not remember calling posters out for not replying in time. Don’t you confuse me with somebody else?

The rest of your word salad I don’t see any argument, just repeated and rinsed positions and naratives (which you see as facts). You are more informed than former ICJ chief justice. She is probably also disengenous. You have better info than Haviv Gur. You are the moral pinnacle of the issue. But you won on word count. That is for sure.

I'll call you out for not replying to me

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Horrific story ….so why no mention anywhere?

There was loads and loads of mention here. You just haven't gone back far enough.

 

[Amir]

However, when you say the soldiers wouldn’t have shot those three men if they had known they were hostages, can we infer that they shot them because they thought they were Palestinians? What kind of heroes who have been ‘risking their lives’, shoot people carrying white flags?

Please don’t try to paint the IDF as heroic because they are not. They are blood thirsty genocidal maniacs who have carried out war crimes and crimes against humanity for decades, not just since October 7th.

Please stop looking for hidden meanings in my words. I did not say they were heros. And yes, they have been doing terrible things and they did shoot them thinking they were Palestenians.

It's just about facts. They have been risking their lives trying to find hostages and bodies. It does not make them heroes. It does not make the IDF heroic.

 

[Giggsy PO]

The first post was quoting another poster by mistake. You didn't complain about nobody replying to you so for that I apologise. However the post I quoted was by a poster who has been tagging.you for time and asking why you continually ignore him and his questions. That right there is exactly my point. You post selectively and ignore others when they tag you and ask you questions.

As for the rest of your post it just proves my point even further. You can't discuss anything relevant just post sarcastic replies whilst ignoring things that have been well documented and backed up with evidence.

Then why do you bother? You basically insult me all over your post and when you receive something back you freak out. I didnt receive answers to my questions too. So what? I dont make big deal of it. People might forgot, the question is not interesting to them, they dont have time, they consider the question to Be in Bad faith, whatever the reason. People dont live in this thread 24/7.

It is only in your world you know for sure why people who support Israel dont post here.And let me tell you something, just because you say something is documented and backed by evidence doesnt mean it is actually documented and backed by evidence. Hence why you ignored my ICJ comment. The judge had the exactly same evidence as you do, but came to different conclusion.

 

[Idxomer]

Horrific story ….so why no mention anywhere?

Define anywhere. Search Rafah tent massacre. It wasn't just decapitated children but people of all ages were also burned alive and their bodies torn to pieces. There's a video of a father holding the body of his headless child that can't be posted here. This isn't an isolated incident, similar massacres have been happening regularly for the last 8 months.

I don't think many in the English media reported the image of that child but there was this article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/comment.../30/biden-palestinian-beheaded-israeli-babies

 

[Giggsy PO]

I'll call you out for not replying to me

Mate, I have to admit you are persistant. You even managed to confuse langster. Can you repeat the question?

 

[space]

Why even engage with Genocide apologists?
Their arguments are so outdated it’s not even funny. Anything Palestinians do will always be bad to them and anything Israel does will always be good or at worst a misunderstanding. They should be shamed and ignored

Free Palestine; end apartheid

 

[Idxomer]

Why even engage with Genocide apologists?
Their arguments are so outdated it’s not even funny. Anything Palestinians do will always be bad to them and anything Israel does will always be good or at worst a misunderstanding. They should be shamed and ignored

Free Palestine; end apartheid

 

[langster]

Then why do you bother? You basically insult me all over your post and when you receive something back you freak out. I didnt receive answers to my questions too. So what? I dont make big deal of it. People might forgot, the question is not interesting to them, they dont have time, they consider the question to Be in Bad faith, whatever the reason. People dont live in this thread 24/7.

It is only in your world you know for sure why people who support Israel dont post here.And let me tell you something, just because you say something is documented and backed by evidence doesnt mean it is actually documented and backed by evidence. Hence why you ignored my ICJ comment. The judge had the exactly same evidence as you do, but came to different conclusion.

You're taking me attacking your posts as insults, that's laughable. I'm only bothering because I knew.you would reply to me, and in this way. It's funny because you're replying to me continuously regarding me attacking you and yet you have repeatedly ignored posts about the actual topics discussed in here.

As for the ICJ, that's been debated here numerous times yet you didn't get involved. The evidence is clear, the world knows hence why so many are protesting about it all over the world. It's why countries are now standing up against it. Global politics is a tricky situation and many countries, especially smaller ones have to be careful as the consequences for bucking the trend or contradicting or opposing the superpowers can be extremely detrimental to them and their people.

The fact some are now speaking out speaks volumes about the situation. More will follow, that's for sure. The same as you arguing about feeling personally attacked and replying to me yet ignoring questions for months or not engaging in the main issues such as the continued bombing of Rafah, the shit storm in the West Bank, the starving of millions and blocking of food aid by Israelis, the complete destruction of entire towns, the lies.spread about the tunnels and UNWRA being classed as a terrorist organisation despite evidence showing the lies and propaganda spread to distract from the unwarranted attacks, political slander and defending of them or the continued onslaught and bombing campaign and ground offensive.

All that and more is being discussed but.you chose to instead reply to someone attacking your reluctance to discuss those issues.it really says a lot. I'm off to work now. Have a nice day.

 

[dumbo]

Horrific story ….so why no mention anywhere?

Ding! ding! ding!

We don't do mentions of horrific stories. We do mentions of what is ideologically useful. In this case we mention what furthers the aims of Apartheid Israel and the Western governments that have a stake in said racist endeavour.

And attempt to bury anything that doesn't serve our interests, including killings, mutilations, starvation of women and children by our allies, using our weapons.

 

[maniak]

Mate, I have to admit you are persistant. You even managed to confuse langster. Can you repeat the question?

Brilliant trolling.

 

[dumbo]

Not a single mention of this anywhere ….but you’ve “seen the tapes” ?

A link to Whitehouse officials "clarifying" Biden hadn't seen what he said he saw with regards to beheaded babies.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...idens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas

Report on footage of Israel's barbaric strike on Rafah encampment.
https://metro.co.uk/2024/05/26/hama...87/?ico=trending-module_category_world_item-0

 

[Giggsyking]

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[Giggsyking]

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[2mufc0]

This figure is practically impossible to reach, I've seen estimates that are more along the lines of the 10k mark, which seems more reasonable. Which is still absurdly high.

If you use the 70k tonnes figure, if you took every operational plane IAF has (+-200), and they used the largest bomb (2000lb Mk84/Paveway Series), the operational tempo per plane needs to average out to 350 sorties. Which, over a 7 month period is practically impossible to achieve. Given F-15 and F16 readiness rates are pretty well known, this sortie rate is impossible.

Anyway, only post i'm making on this subject lest I be accused of diversion again, but these military technical topics are of great interest to me

They used 21 kilotons in their 2014 offensive, even how horrific that was the current slaughter pales in comparison. Even if its double than 2014 (I suspect it's a lot more ) 42 kilotons is an absurd amount of fire power

 

[Pav1878]

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disgusting human beings.

 

[berbatrick]

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[unchanged_lineup]

Mate, I have to admit you are persistant. You even managed to confuse langster. Can you repeat the question?

But it's Palestinian supporting students and staff that are facing censure and expulsion. Are you posting that history example to support them?

 

[Giggsyking]

disgusting human beings.

In broad daylight in the US.

 

[Smores]

So now they're bombing UNRWA schools but it's fine cause they'll just say Hamas and that's that.

It's just too depraved, too hypocritical to even process now. I've stepped away from twitter because the amount of hate and disinformation from Israeli flaggers has ramped up to fascist level. I'd like to stick with my assumption that it's not representative of all Israelis (and supporters) and these fascist c**ts make it harder day by day.

 

[Ish]

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Just fecking sickening. No shame, nothing hidden. Out in the open for the world to see. The world really is broken. There's no real "right or wrong" or "good or bad". It's just ultimately about those in power and control getting and wanting everything done their way.

 

[africanspur]

Israeli strike on UN shelter in Gaza kills at least 27

Roulette wheel turned. Options are

-Hamas tunnels underneath
-Hamas operatives inside
-Palestinian misfired missile
-Tragic mistake
-We need to investigate further to find out what happened (and commit another atrocity a few days later so everyone forgets about this current one)

Seems the option this time was Hamas operative in central Gaza. The place they've supposedly cleared already.

Great stuff.

 

[That_Bloke]

Israeli strike on UN shelter in Gaza kills at least 27

Roulette wheel turned. Options are

-Hamas tunnels underneath
-Hamas operatives inside
-Palestinian misfired missile
-Tragic mistake
-We need to investigate further to find out what happened (and commit another atrocity a few days later so everyone forgets about this current one)

Seems the option this time was Hamas operative in central Gaza. The place they've supposedly cleared already.

Great stuff.

They're specifically targetting UNRWA, they want them gone from Gaza.

Don't forget that there's a Knesset preliminary bill to list it as terrorist organization.

 

[Denis79]

They're specifically targetting UNRWA, they want them gone from Gaza.

Don't forget that there's a Knesset preliminary bill to list it as terrorist organization.

Israel want everything out from Gaza, the UN, free media, anyone or anything that can be witnesses to the genocide.

 

[Pav1878]

In broad daylight in the US.

We have been in shock throughout at the atrocities, but also the response of the US and UK. I still can’t believe they can openly call for ethnic cleansing and no one bats an eyelid.

Sometimes I feel like I am in a weird nightmarish alternative dimension where people have lost all sense of humanity, morals and right and wrong.

We wake up every morning to yet another massacre of innocent civilians and now it seems to have been normalised.

The wretched people of the world, including some who frequent these threads, who defend what we are seeing, are lost causes as human beings.

Unfortunately these people are at the top of the political pyramid and the rest of us need to oust them and hold them accountable.

It is clear that Palestinians won’t be free for a long time yet. Even after this blood shed is over, there is a long road ahead to Palestinian statehood and it has to start with the removal of right wing Zionists from Israeli government.

 

[dumbo]

Sometimes I feel like I am in a weird nightmarish alternative dimension where people have lost all sense of humanity, morals and right and wrong.

It's mad.

You have to believe that if Aparthied South Africa, the Jim Crow South, the Armenian Genocide, the transatlantic slave trade, the Holocaust were being live broadcast today, you'd likely have the same bunch popping in to downplay, equivocate, justify what was happening, so long as it was deemed politically expedient.

 

[Giggsyking]

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[Giggsyking]

https://apnews.com/article/spain-israel-icj-genocide-case-67d4d9b8ecf6fd88e718319a5d93465a

Good news, Spain joined the South African case against Israel.

 

[Pav1878]

It's mad.

You have to believe that if Aparthied South Africa, the Jim Crow South, the Armenian Genocide, the transatlantic slave trade, the Holocaust were being live broadcast today, you'd likely have the same bunch popping in to downplay, equivocate, justify what was happening, so long as it was deemed politically expedient.

Absolutely.
The West doesn’t sit up and take notice unless it is happening on their doorstep and to white people, eg Ukraine.

If it’s brown kids dying it is far off somewhere and doesn’t impact their daily lives and gets forgotten. ‘Well, they’re always fighting in the Middle East,’ type mentality. Overlooking the fact that most conflicts in the Middle East have been caused by western foreign policy.

Im disgusted and disillusioned.

 

[Giggsy PO]

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