Is it only me, or this does seem like a reasonable deal?
Why would these Congressional leaders invite him though?Do you have any information I don't?
It seems to me to be absurd and completely out of place to officially invite a pariah with an ICC warrant hanging above his head amidst the domestic protests and the international outcry, whilst the US are completely isolated on the international scene on this matter. It's like doubling down on failure and give it domestic legitimacy.
I personally see it as a political suicide, on both domestic and international level. There's a limit on how much daftness one is allowed. No single western country would dare to pull this kind of move at the moment.
No information, no. I just don't have your positivity. Considering the US is not a party to the ICC, and it is an election year... I think Biden will use it as a photo-op.Do you have any information I don't?
It seems to me to be absurd and completely out of place to officially invite a pariah with an ICC warrant hanging above his head amidst the domestic protests and the international outcry, whilst the US are completely isolated on the international scene on this matter. It's like doubling down on failure and give it domestic legitimacy.
I personally see it as a political suicide, on both domestic and international level. There's a limit on how much daftness one is allowed. No single western country would dare to pull this kind of move at the moment.
If Israel continues its current offensive, there will be no Palestine… and no Palestinians in Gaza. This round of war should stop. We can figure out the rest later.Why would Palestinian side, whoever represents them, accept anything that doesn't lead to their state?
Any sort of ceasfire not leading to the Palestinian state means the end of Palestine as the idea.
That is happening since the beginning of this thing. And it will keep happening in the future. Palestine state will not be possible if Israel goes back into the international fold as a reliable partner, without showing clear willingness to recognize and accept the existance of Palestinian state.If Israel continues its current offensive, there will be no Palestine… and no Palestinians in Gaza. This round of war should stop. We can figure out the rest later.
You tell me. I'm honestly at loss and can't for the life of me see any benefit to this invitation right now.Why would these Congressional leaders invite him though?
There is an election in November.Why would these Congressional leaders invite him though?
So Chuck Schumer, who strongly criticized Netanyahu, has now calculated that it benefits the Dems to put his signature on the invitation?There is an election in November.
There are some issues that are above partisan politics.So Chuck Schumer, who strongly criticized Netanyahu, has now calculated that it benefits the Dems to put his signature on the invitation?
I personally think that Biden hates the living shit out of Netanyahu who thoroughly took the piss during the past eigth months and can't wait for Trump to be elected.No information, no. I just don't have your positivity. Considering the US is not a party to the ICC, and it is an election year... I think Biden will use it as a photo-op.
I don't see how Netanyahu spins this and keeps his government extreme right partners - which is what he cares about the most.He would not post qll that without israel being on board. Seems that the madness finally will end
Biden will be able to recover some voters. Israel will spin it as a job done and is somewhat what US wants
And the most important, deaths will stop
Looking forward to it.I don't see how Netanyahu spins this and keeps his government extreme right partners - which is what he cares about the most.
Biden, wisely, made his announcement on Friday evening Israeli time, when the extreme right have to keep quiet because of the Sabbath. So let's see if Netanyahu tries to sabotage it during the day tomorrow - before his partners wake up in the evening.
My guess is Hamas has already agreed to it. Netanyahu on the other hand is far less likely.lot of spin on twitter at least, but it seems this is to a large extent the deal Hamas was offering before the rafah offensive? most convincing counter-point was that this one says withdrawal from "populated" areas.
Of course they'll let him address congress! How old are you again?The US is absolutely fecked if this goes through. I personally believe that Biden won't let it happen.
Old enough.Of course they'll let him address congress! How old are you again?
I'll be surprised if the suggested cease fire is accepted by Israel.Why would Palestinian side, whoever represents them, accept anything that doesn't lead to their state?
Any sort of ceasfire not leading to the Palestinian state means the end of Palestine as the idea.
Just to clarify, of course you are right and of course everything is better than people dying.I'll be surprised if the suggested cease fire is accepted by Israel.
If it is, take is as a win as it will stop the killing and suffering in Gaza. It's not enough, but if you try to get Israel to agree to a Palestenian State right now... The war will go on forever.
I agree, but there's a limit to what you can achieve under the current circumstances - which include a wacky Israeli government and an Israeli public that is still licking its wounds from October 7, feeling very sorry for itself, and includes a large portion of people who will go bananas if the Palestenians get their own state right now. And those are the supporters of the current government.Just to clarify, of course you are right and of course everything is better than people dying.
However, cynism is speaking out of me, what Biden has proposed will not change much longterm. I don't trust him or anyone else to see that the conflict itself never ends unless there is Palestine, or there is no Palestinians at all.
I agree with this take.I'll be surprised if the suggested cease fire is accepted by Israel.
If it is, take is as a win as it will stop the killing and suffering in Gaza. It's not enough, but if you try to get Israel to agree to a Palestenian State right now... The war will go on forever.
Let's go through point by point:
Palestinians has been licking their wounds since 1948. It's not only about the Israelis. Some people would rather die standing than to live begging on their knees in humiliation.I agree, but there's a limit to what you can achieve under the current circumstances - which include a wacky Israeli government and an Israeli public that is still licking its wounds from October 7, feeling very sorry for itself, and includes a large portion of people who will go bananas if the Palestenians get their own state right now. And those are the supporters of the current government.
Like I've written - I don't even see Israel agreeing to THIS ceasefire, let alone a deal that will include a Palestenian state.
One small detail: Biden said Israel and Hamas will negotiate phase 2 once phase 1 is complete and the terms for phase 3 will be negotiated once phase 2 is complete. Israel can easily dump this after phase 1.Let's go through point by point:
Phase 1:
- a ceasefire, which in effect means Israel will continue/resume its activity pre Oct 7 - which means Palestinians killed or held in indefinite captivity at a slower rate than they are now. Any Palestinian who resists being summarily executed or imprisoned by Israeli forces will be cast as having broken the ceasefire.
- Withdrawal of Israeli forces from populated areas...which don't exist because Israel has demolished every bit of infrastructure in populated areas
- Palestinian civilians can return to the rubble of their homes
- A surge in humanitarian aid...which should and would already be the case except that Israel keeps killing those attempting to provide aid. All this actually means is that Israel will probably allow more supplies in.
Phase 2:
- A permanent end to hostilities, meaning that Israel will be free to continue settlement building, detention of Palestinians for crimes such as breathing and existing, but if a Palestinian throws a rock in response they'll be accused of breaking the peace
- Exchange for the release of remaining live hostages... Exchange of what? Exchange means each side gives something. Are Israel about to release the thousands of Palestinians they hold in captivity? If you desire to see how hilariously disingenuous the US is, note that they don't even specific or mention what Israel might be exchanging in return (because they can't acknowledge that Israel do anything wrong)
- Israeli forces withdraw from Gaza (but still get to sit on their wall around Gaza and snipe people for fun)
Phase 3:
- Major reconstruction plan for Gaza...don't make me laugh. The only construction will be of natural resources extraction infrastructure off the coast, which Palestinians will never see a dime of.
- Final remains of hostages are returned to their families. Whatever, that one is probably what it says on the tin.
This plan serves to do nothing but return the situation to that which existed pre-Oct 7, just with a hundred thousand extra dead Palestinians. This is not a plan for permanent peace or anything approaching it, it is a plan for Israel to slow it's rate of genocide to pre Oct 7 levels so that the world (and Biden's potential voter base) stops paying attention.
Interesting, cheers. That's a rather terrifying prospect as it could lead to Palestinians returning to areas that Israel will flatten again after they accuse Hamas of backing out of the deal pre-phase 2 (or, again, any Palestinian looks at an IDF soldier in the wrong way).One small detail: Biden said Israel and Hamas will negotiate phase 2 once phase 1 is complete and the terms for phase 3 will be negotiated once phase 2 is complete. Israel can easily dump this after phase 1.
I don't and that's the wrong step.I agree with this take.
I see the risk for the Palestinians in this deal, but this war should stop. This should be the first step.
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On this, I’m almost sure I’ve just watched Biden specifically mention an exchange of Palestinian prisoners.- Exchange for the release of remaining live hostages... Exchange of what? Exchange means each side gives something. Are Israel about to release the thousands of Palestinians they hold in captivity? If you desire to see how hilariously disingenuous the US is, note that they don't even specific or mention what Israel might be exchanging in return (because they can't acknowledge that Israel do anything wrong)
Cheers - it would be nice of him to do so in the tweet but that's at least something.On this, I’m almost sure I’ve just watched Biden specifically mention an exchange of Palestinian prisoners.
As horrid as the highlighted bit is, the last sentence of Obama's post might be worse.Tweet
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Interesting. I would think that Biden would not say all that if Netanyahu would not be on board. Because if he rebuff him and Biden keep supporting Israel, Biden would be making the US even more Israel bitch of what it had been to the dateI don't see how Netanyahu spins this and keeps his government extreme right partners - which is what he cares about the most.
Biden, wisely, made his announcement on Friday evening Israeli time, when the extreme right have to keep quiet because of the Sabbath. So let's see if Netanyahu tries to sabotage it during the day tomorrow - before his partners wake up in the evening.
His administration has been one of the most pro-Israel ever.Cheers - it would be nice of him to do so in the tweet but that's at least something.
As horrid as the highlighted bit is, the last sentence of Obama's post might be worse.
Just remembered Obama was taught by Edward Said.Tweet
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I totally understand this point of view, and I really can’t dismiss it. The reality is that there is risk.I don't and that's the wrong step.
This so-called "plan" is a PR stunt by Biden to gain election points and pull out a thorn in his side, with absolutely no vision for the future of Gaza and the West Bank.
It has as much holes as a swiss cheese and puts absolutely no constraints or limits on Israel. That's exactly the line of thinking in the last three decades that led us to the current situation. That's the return to the old status quo at best, with further annexions in the Gaza strip for "security reasons". At worst it's the complete integration of Gaza into Greater Israel in the long-term.
As long as there's no clear political intentions about the aftermath and the future of a Palestinian State, there's no reason for the Palestinians to accept any kind of deal, especially when enginereed by this US administration and the most extremist Israeli government in the country's history. Once the world's attention turns away from Gaza, sighing in relief and patting themselves on the back about ending the war, Israel will use it to tighten the noose around Gaza's neck whilst stepping on the gas pedal for the extension of illegal settlements in the West Bank.
It's now or never. No more vague promises and talks of "trust the process".
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I absolutely get what you're saying but I don't think you can even begin to understand what the Palestinians went through the last 75 years.I totally understand this point of view, and I really can’t dismiss it. The reality is that there is risk.
But people are dying, of relentless bombardment and of hunger. They need a break, food and shelter. Without this deal, this campaign will continue. It’s easy for people like you and me to say “don’t give up”, but those will live this hill can’t keep on going forever.
