Cristiano Ronaldo
Can there really be someone better than Messi in modern football?
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very funnyhttp://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sir-alex-ferguson-cristiano-ronaldo-5595455
Sir Alex knows best
Yes. He's not miles ahead of the next best, Ronaldo, who has shown what is achievable and I expect to see someone better than Messi in my lifetime. It's not like cricket where I don't think I'll ever see someone get near Bradman, given he is so far ahead it's almost beyond belief.
He is miles ahead of Ronaldo. Ronaldo is a product of marketing and the English hype machine. He literally is anonymous when he doesn't score. You won't know he is on the pitch. When Messi doesn't score he is still the best player on the pitch. It's like comparing Cruijff to Gerd Muller.
Is streets ahead of anyone, Ronaldo included imho.
Yes, that marketing and English hype machine produced 53 goals and 15 assists in 52 appearances this season. What a ludicrous thing to say.
And Messi is not man of the match in every game plays, far from it.
If Fergie would have coached Messi, it would be the same, even if Ronaldo was actually better.
The real question is will Messi ever be as good as Rashford?
And those 53 goals none against PSG, ATletico and Manchester City. One against the top 3 sides in la Liga. In those games he did absolutely nothing. When the team doesn't create for him he rarely can use inidviudal ability to decide games. 3rd Champions League final in a row he has done nothing, 3.5 if you count how awful he was in the 08 final after HT. Again, give me a game where Ronaldo was the best footballer on the pitch without being on the scoresheet? Would you call RvN a great footballer? What is CR doing at the moment that RVN wasn't doing in his prime? He is a goal scorer and Suarez outscored him this season despite not being the primary penalty kick taker and scored more against tougher opposition.
If you look at the evolution of other sports, it's very likely we're only scratching the surface in terms of how good players can become. I still honestly think lots of youngsters are let down by crap coaching and when that is (hopefully) corrected, we probably will see players even better than Messi. Scary thought.
Messi is a great player and very few will ever surpass him. But I do expect to see someone better. Messi is the type of footballer who comes around once in a generation. He's a brilliant footballer.
But, at the same time, he's not significantly better than some of the other players in that top bracket. Ronaldo's, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Iniesta just to name a few from modern times... Undoubtedly he is better than them all, but he hasn't been THAT much better that he's not attainable.
But, at the same time, he's not significantly better than some of the other players in that top bracket. Ronaldo's, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Iniesta just to name a few from modern times... Undoubtedly he is better than them all, but he hasn't been THAT much better that he's not attainable.
one day a player with CR7s physique, CR7s relelentless drive to be a G.O.A.T., Ronaldinho's flare and Messi like consistency will emerge.
That player has to produce numbers and win trophies and his qualities be sustained for at least 7 years.
And Messi has an ability with the ball I haven't seen anyone, except for Robben but in a lower level: The ball is glued to their feet.
Yes, Cristiano Ronaldo.
He is, as of the last CL final, his achievements as a manager should be considered when evaluating him as a player, imo.
Where's the white text?
Ronaldo is.
And what a strange argument about his managerial career. Was Ancelotti a better player than P. Falcao? If you count his managerial honors, it seems like it. Was Trappatoni better than F. Baresi? Again, yes, if you count his numerous titles as a manager. Or does this argument only work with Zidane?
To be fair, Müller doesn't get the recognition he deserves. Even though there is no argument here about who was the better player out of the two.
Someone already exists who effectively matches Messi within the same generation as him.
It's hard to imagine a player who could smash the records both Messi and Ronaldo have earned over their careers, but I'm sure there will be players in the next decades who will again be in the impossible discussion of being the best player ever. For sure these two are the best of our generation, and the best since Pele and Maradona.
It's hard to imagine a player who could smash the records both Messi and Ronaldo have earned over their careers, but I'm sure there will be players in the next decades who will again be in the impossible discussion of being the best player ever. For sure these two are the best of our generation, and the best since Pele and Maradona.
100% Agreed. When I was growing up people just called him an 'ugly' footballer (reference to his playing style). He is the greatest goalscorer of all time for me and he scored when his team needed him. People call him a poacher but they have never watched him. Bayern didn't have WC wingers so Muller had to literally create space for himself with his runs. Incredible. In a lot of games he dropped deep into mf to defend and when he played for Bayern he wasn't an in the box strker and used combination play to get 1 vs 1 with the GK. If Gerd played for Barcelona today he would get 70+ goals.
My point was that even though Gerd Muller scored more tha Cruiff, and Cruijff scored a lot despite not being Ajaxs penalty taker, it is clear watching them who the better footballer is, not goal scorer, footballer.
How many CL does Ronaldo have? Exactly.
I think it only works with Zidane due to generation thing.
Zidane will be remembered more fondly due to managerial exploits. There is no objective 'best' player in modern football. (In post-modern football it's C. Ronaldo)
you are being very assumptive aren't you?
Suarez is a player who plays for the team first and foremost and, has that knack of making players around him perform better.....I wasn't even aware he had better numbers than Messi this year but in terms of this season you could certainly argue Suarez performed better
If I see one in my lifetime I will genuinely be surprised.
No player comes close to his ability and when he is at his best he makes everyone around him including his own team mates look average.
No player comes close to his ability and when he is at his best he makes everyone around him including his own team mates look average.
2-3 years ago I thought that was going to be Hazard. Nowadays probably only Neymar has a chance to get to that level probably.
Ehm, he has none but Zidane has only one - I don't see it as a big margin. Seedorf has five, does it mean that he is far greater than both? Anderson has as many CL's as Zidane.
And why is CL the deciding factor of greatness? Ronaldo won the World Cup (the biggest trophy in football) twice, while Zidane only made it once. Ronaldo has 2 Ballon D'Ors (again, without any hesitation the biggest individual award in football, until 2010), Zidane has one.
As for managerial achievements counting only for Zidane - I'm genuinely lost here, if you're not just making fun of me here. It's an absolutely absurd argument, really.
Yes but I think Messi is so far ahead of most other players he's faced that any other player will need to be extraordinary (like 3-5 goals a game) to be clearly ahead of him. It's like if a boxer knocked out 50 opponents, then retired unbeaten. How do you beat that? Knock out 51, then retire? Maybe you're just fighting weaker opponents or have more matches. The only way to be sure would be to have them fight each other mutiple times but if they're from different eras, that's not an option.
Messi is far enough ahead of the competition that direct comparison is pretty impossible imo.
Messi is far enough ahead of the competition that direct comparison is pretty impossible imo.
Wait, you were serious? Wow.
Managerial achievement have NO bearing on how good a player is/was.
Not really presumptuous, just wasn't very clear - the second part of the post wasn't (necessarily) a dig at you. In any case, your description sounds more like Messi than Suárez, who can be fairly selfish at times.
Suárez was maybe better than Messi, it was close, but only because of Messi's injury. In terms of performances when fit Messi was clearly better.
No. It is probably more like 75 percent prefer Messi and others Ronaldo but the debate is still a valid one. Besides, things might be different when Messi is Ronaldos age. They both still have a good few years left in their career.
Well 75% to 25% is what I'd call one sided or ... not much of a debate. Pele and Maradona or Maradona and Messi will give you much closer numbers, now that is a debate. Any year Messi has performed to his best, it's been quite clear cut.
Still trying mate? C'mon now, even you can now surely see the light after all of this time.
Yes, in short. It is almost inconceivable that there will be someone better, but there is still the argument that he isn't the greatest player in history. Someone, maybe in the next 5 years or in the next 500, will be as talented as productive as him, but will be better in certain areas (such as physicality, distance-shooting, flair etc), even if it is at the expense of something else.
I don't think anyone imagined someone becoming greater than Pele, or Maradona. There will be another, no one can definitely say that there will never be another footballer in history that reaches this level. If Messi can, someone else can. Not everyone perhaps, but someone, and if that someone equals him on the club stage and wins a World Cup (and perhaps playing in different leagues over his career), he would be regarded as the greater player. It's not impossible. I don't think anyone envisaged Messi becoming what he is today when he started to play for Barca's first team, even those who thought he would go on to be the best player in the world, or even in history. He had his dribbling, but the shooting, passing, strength and intelligence took time to show consistently, and it all came together at once, almost out of nowhere (around 2008/9).
I don't think anyone imagined someone becoming greater than Pele, or Maradona. There will be another, no one can definitely say that there will never be another footballer in history that reaches this level. If Messi can, someone else can. Not everyone perhaps, but someone, and if that someone equals him on the club stage and wins a World Cup (and perhaps playing in different leagues over his career), he would be regarded as the greater player. It's not impossible. I don't think anyone envisaged Messi becoming what he is today when he started to play for Barca's first team, even those who thought he would go on to be the best player in the world, or even in history. He had his dribbling, but the shooting, passing, strength and intelligence took time to show consistently, and it all came together at once, almost out of nowhere (around 2008/9).
I never get why people say someone is the greatest ever ... You simply can't say that .. You can only be the greatest of your time and Messi is the greatest of his time ... Like Pele and Maradona before him were the greatest of their time ..However the same way he came after them someone else will come along and be the best player in the world and some more foolish people will say they are the greatest ever too.
It will surely happen but probably not for another 20+ years.
Even if you take away the ridiculous talent, you got to consider that he (and Ronaldo as well) seldomly get injured, have kept football as their main priority in life and have been playing at a world class level for a decade.
That's what seperates them from everyone else. Guys like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rooney were the closest in the modern era and had the talent but they either didn't take care if themselves or had injuries.
Even if you take away the ridiculous talent, you got to consider that he (and Ronaldo as well) seldomly get injured, have kept football as their main priority in life and have been playing at a world class level for a decade.
That's what seperates them from everyone else. Guys like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rooney were the closest in the modern era and had the talent but they either didn't take care if themselves or had injuries.
This argument has never made sense and never will. If one can objectively state that Messi is better than almost every other footballer who has ever lived -- and I know of no one who denies this -- it's clearly possible to argue that Messi is greater than the greatest footballer of all time. Or not the greatest footballer of all time, if you're of the belief that it's Pele or Maradona instead, or someone else.
We can say with absolute confidence, can we not, that Lionel Messi is greater than, say, Luigi Riva, an Italian forward who is considered to be one of the greatest forwards of all time -- even though Messi and Riva played in different era? Of course we can.
We can say a lot of things with absolute confidence about different players in different eras. We can't hind behind the "different era" doctrine to avoid the question. Maybe it's too close to call, maybe one is clearly greater than the others, but whatever the right answer is let's put this rubbish that you "simply can't say" that one player is greater than another because they played in different eras.
Ok then if Messi had played in another era he wouldn't have had his 2\3 years drug hormone treatment so no he clearly isn't the greatest player of all time
Nobody can. Some may think they can, but only because they don't really understand what objectively means. One of things impossible to simulate and establish but absolutely crucial for any objective analysis is the right simulation, replication of conditions that otherwise can be interpreted as "control". The only way to prove a hypothesis, and Messi is greatest of all time is essentially a hypothesis, is an experiment and any scientific aka "objective" experiment must have control. Since football itself was different (rules, balls etc), life was different, medicine was different such control is just impossible to devise. To many data with no clear structure to place it.
The only thing we can do is just go by awards. Since the ultimate goal of football is to win a title, we can maybe approximate a number of tournaments that stayed more or less the same and see how players did in those. But even that is hard, since UCL and Champions Cup are quite different although in a way analogous. But that will only bring us closer to the answer who is the most successful player, not necessarily best. And with Pele who never even played in Europe that sort of logic is completely useless.
If we want to break-down football to a serious of skills and objectively analyze those, that will be a stupid wild goose chase. For example, the match balls have advanced, current ones favors the attack. You give Messi the 70s ball and he probably would not be able to do lots of stuff with it, you give him the ball from 1900s, the one that actually weight a lot and Messi would not be able to play football at all i think. We can also point out to how medicine advanced, these treatments Messi had when he was a teen were not available before because they were undeveloped or just so expensive even Barcelona would not be able to afford them. Actually Messi was quite lucky to play now, cause with his medical condition he most likely would not be a footballer in even 80s, never mind 50-60s. And so on, so on.