50 goals in 107 games (31 in his last 40), a world cup golden ball, three international finals - oh and an olympic gold medal... if thats him being half the player then I assume your just pointing out how amazing he us at club level because internationally thats pretty impressive
Can there really be someone better than Messi in modern football?
- Thread starter VorZakone
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I personally prefer Maradona although from a efficiency perspective maybe. Messi is better but he's in a far far better team than anything Diego played in
Then there's the question of links to Dr Luis García del Mora, who supplied Lance Armstrong:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...orked-with-Lance-Armstrong-and-US-Postal.html
A Spanish judge ordered that blood samples from athletes were destroyed, which could be a mass cover up:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...e-Patricia-Santamaria-to-cover-up-doping.html
Guardiola also tested positive for nandrolone months after leaving Barcelona to play in Serie A.
And all that aside, Messi's HGH he received to help him grow would have also given him thicker bones, tendons and muscles.
Then there's the question of links to Dr Luis García del Mora, who supplied Lance Armstrong:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...orked-with-Lance-Armstrong-and-US-Postal.html
A Spanish judge ordered that blood samples from athletes were destroyed, which could be a mass cover up:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...e-Patricia-Santamaria-to-cover-up-doping.html
Guardiola also tested positive for nandrolone months after leaving Barcelona to play in Serie A.
And all that aside, Messi's HGH he received to help him grow would have also given him thicker bones, tendons and muscles.
- Messi plays badly for Argentina
- Messi hasn't won a worldcup.
- Maradona has won it and with a worse team
- Messi hasn't proved himself in another league yet
I'm so tired about those repeating arguments...
- Messi is head & shoulders the best in Argentina, and when we don't have him we are shite most of the time. He's been amazing in the WC being like 60% physically, and he's been incredible in the last CA. Best player in Argentina, miles ahead.
- Messi hasn't won a WC because Higuain & Palacio missed some really clear chances, and we lost against the best team, and it took them 115 minutes to score. They came from a really simple match that was finished 5-0 at half time. We played two extra times in a row (vs Switzerland & Holland).
- Maradona had an excellent team at that WC, specially defensively. But guys like Burruchaga, Valdano, etc, did what Higuain & Palacio couldn't do. That's the only difference.
- Messi is miles ahead the best player in La Liga, and he's beaten the best teams in the world. He was better than Silva since they were like 14 years old, or than Aguero since they were 16 years old. How he isn't gonna be good in Premier League, where the game is the easiest defensively speaking? You can clearly see how guys like Silva, CR7, Modric or Bale had lots of space or time to think. What if you give that space or time to Messi? LOL.
About the thread... it's really hard. Statistically Messi is just inhuman. I don't doubt someone is going reach his 90+ goals in a year, or so. But that guy also has to be the best passer in the world, and the best dribbler at the same time. And win 5 BDO, which means he has to be good for quite a long time.
He would have to be kinda complete. And what I consider important is that he'd have to win what Messi hasn't yet: The WC. If this X guy wins 2 WCs, and can complete that with at least 1 UCL and a couple Leagues, he would be done in that sense. Then he would have to be good at scoring and passing, maybe not with Messi's numbers but with some good numbers. You could argue against Messi with that.
- Messi hasn't won a worldcup.
- Maradona has won it and with a worse team
- Messi hasn't proved himself in another league yet
I'm so tired about those repeating arguments...
- Messi is head & shoulders the best in Argentina, and when we don't have him we are shite most of the time. He's been amazing in the WC being like 60% physically, and he's been incredible in the last CA. Best player in Argentina, miles ahead.
- Messi hasn't won a WC because Higuain & Palacio missed some really clear chances, and we lost against the best team, and it took them 115 minutes to score. They came from a really simple match that was finished 5-0 at half time. We played two extra times in a row (vs Switzerland & Holland).
- Maradona had an excellent team at that WC, specially defensively. But guys like Burruchaga, Valdano, etc, did what Higuain & Palacio couldn't do. That's the only difference.
- Messi is miles ahead the best player in La Liga, and he's beaten the best teams in the world. He was better than Silva since they were like 14 years old, or than Aguero since they were 16 years old. How he isn't gonna be good in Premier League, where the game is the easiest defensively speaking? You can clearly see how guys like Silva, CR7, Modric or Bale had lots of space or time to think. What if you give that space or time to Messi? LOL.
About the thread... it's really hard. Statistically Messi is just inhuman. I don't doubt someone is going reach his 90+ goals in a year, or so. But that guy also has to be the best passer in the world, and the best dribbler at the same time. And win 5 BDO, which means he has to be good for quite a long time.
He would have to be kinda complete. And what I consider important is that he'd have to win what Messi hasn't yet: The WC. If this X guy wins 2 WCs, and can complete that with at least 1 UCL and a couple Leagues, he would be done in that sense. Then he would have to be good at scoring and passing, maybe not with Messi's numbers but with some good numbers. You could argue against Messi with that.
But if all of those are true doesn't it strengthen the fact that there won't be a better player than Messi in the modern game?
Where the game is the easiest defensively speaking? Yeah, well, I guess that's why Soldado, Diego Costa, Pedro, Aspas (25 goals for Celta in all competitions the year after scoring one goal for Liverpool and learning one word of English language) and other hotshots from Primera all failed miserably here. I guess that's why Ronaldo and Suarez manage to score 5 or 6 goals in a single game in a 'tight, tactical battles' of La Liga against beach boys of Eibar and Las Palams.
I don't know how good is Messi when compare with the best of older generations, not old enough to witness and compare them in fair way. And I mean there were also Pele and Maradona, and also Di Stefano, who absolutely rule the football world during their time. Messi could be better than all of them in club football etc, but then Pele and Maradona performed much better in international football and bigger stage, and Di Stefano seemed to be better in CL level (European Cup). Who knows, in future may there could be a new player who may match Messi (in club football career) + Pele (International career) and Maradona (best individual performances in biggest stage of football).
To me Soldado is an average player, Diego Costa has been great in his first season, so there must be another reasons about him. Aspas and Pedro were above their level in Spain IMO.
But guys like Cesc, Silva, Toure, Aguero, and more prove me right. BPL is the worse league tactically (maybe that was my mistake) and the teams make it more entertaining by attacking no matter what. If there's something good about BPL to watch, it's that all the teams want to play. You're comparing Ronaldo and Suarez, when they could score 8 or 9 against the worst teams in england for sure, if Madrid and Barcelona played there. OR oyu think that they wouldn't be better that the other teams?
Not that he wouldn't be a success but more that would he be the same level of success he is at Barcelona without the world class players around him, without his family supporting him, with completely different tactics, with more scrutiny on his back due to expectations, having a less stable dressing room etc the kind of things every other footballer has to go through but a player as sheltered as messi hasn't had to endure and so had the perfect platorm to be consistent.
You've just lost all credibility there. 8 or 9? Are you kidding me? You play too much FIFA, mate.
Messi is a top player no doubt. He'd never get the same numbers in the Prem, not even close in my opinion.
And the quote about him being amazing at the world cup? I thought he was quite average to be honest...
IFC has a bad argument all round in my opinion
And the quote about him being amazing at the world cup? I thought he was quite average to be honest...
IFC has a bad argument all round in my opinion
Not really. Aguero and Tevez both have played like donkeys for Argentina too. Does it really say a great deal?
I'd even say since Riquelme left the national set up, Argentinas attack has been severely blunted due to Messi being both playmaker and goalscorer resulting in a very disjointed attack. They can still turn it on though and Messi plays well more often than not.
Why have so many shite posters been promoted lately?
Anthony Martial will surpass him. This comment will go down in history.
Ok mate, back to reallity. Back to the time Ronaldo scored 5 or 6 goals and so did suarez (btw, they did score 5 goals, at least Ronaldo for sure, but never 6). Do you think they wouldn't do the same in England? As I said, teams in England tend to attack each other which is good for the game. They would have more chances, I'm sure of that. In 20 minutes Aguero scored 5 goals last season. Or maybe it was in FIFA, dunno.
And this is my point of view: There are a lot of "Las Palmas" like teams in BPL.
Messi has been good at the WC, not amazing. I'll correct myself with that one. And he was 60% phyically speaking. And before Sabella we had Maradona and Batista as managers, so what can you expect?
Under a decent coach, Messi since 2012 reached two finals from 2 possible tournaments and this year should be another one. In the las CA he's been the best, so was the best at the WCQ since 2012.
Messi wasn't even the best player at Barca last year was he? Surely Suarez
No because Ronaldo is better in my view.
And if my view is that of the donkey's bollocks, some experts prefer Ronaldo. The point is, the fact that there is debate about it cannot cement messi as the best ever let alone best of his generation.
But yeah, Messi *could* be considered best ever I guess...
And if my view is that of the donkey's bollocks, some experts prefer Ronaldo. The point is, the fact that there is debate about it cannot cement messi as the best ever let alone best of his generation.
But yeah, Messi *could* be considered best ever I guess...
There's another debate, about Messi being better than Maradona & Pele. So based on your logic, Messi is the best of his generation.
and Ronaldo vs Puskas... so Ronaldo is best of his? :/
Ever is a long time, so Id say yes
Also depends on what your definition of being the best is.
Like when you are talking about football intelligence and passing technique there are alot of players better than Messi like Xavi or Pirlo
We can also be talking about being a great athlete than surely Ibrahimovic or Ronaldo are better
When talking about natural skills with a ball, I still think Ronaldinho has been the best we have seen but he didnt take football serious enough and wasted his career with partying. I also think Maradonna has more natural skills with a ball
Obviously Messi is great because he combines alot of these qualities and used them to win numerous trophies and break alot of crazy stats. But Pele won 5 world cups and scored more goals than Messi. Does that make him better, not nesc because the nature of the game has changed and you can not look past the impact of the other players in the team regarding trophies. But the same applies to Messi, would he be as good in another team in another competition ? We will never know and the nature of the game will also keep on changing.
I am quite sure that in 50 years or so people will be having the same kind of discussions. Was messi better than him, some will say you cant compare the circumstances, others will say no others will say yes...
Also depends on what your definition of being the best is.
Like when you are talking about football intelligence and passing technique there are alot of players better than Messi like Xavi or Pirlo
We can also be talking about being a great athlete than surely Ibrahimovic or Ronaldo are better
When talking about natural skills with a ball, I still think Ronaldinho has been the best we have seen but he didnt take football serious enough and wasted his career with partying. I also think Maradonna has more natural skills with a ball
Obviously Messi is great because he combines alot of these qualities and used them to win numerous trophies and break alot of crazy stats. But Pele won 5 world cups and scored more goals than Messi. Does that make him better, not nesc because the nature of the game has changed and you can not look past the impact of the other players in the team regarding trophies. But the same applies to Messi, would he be as good in another team in another competition ? We will never know and the nature of the game will also keep on changing.
I am quite sure that in 50 years or so people will be having the same kind of discussions. Was messi better than him, some will say you cant compare the circumstances, others will say no others will say yes...
He was good during the WC2010 contrary to popular belief, probably the lack of goals masked people's perception. In 2014 he was decent, certainly was the one spark in that team, he faded the further they went though. He always turns up for the WC qualifiers for Argentina, he was the top scorer last time if I remember correctly. In addition to this he was fantastic in the 2007 Copa and led Argentina to Olympic gold in 2008 with a monster tournament. Overall I'd say half the player is undeserved. He is good for Argentina at worst. Forget the Barcelona player Messi exists and in isolation he actually looks good for the NT, his standards are so high he is judged harshly at times.
It depends on your point of view...for me Puskas is nowhere near Pele & Maradona. And Ronaldo is nowhere near Messi.
As fresh as his/her public hair might be, the poster does bring a fairly valid argument to the table. There is a huge conspiracy theory regarding pes in spain/barca and samples that have destroyed.
We can see with the recent london2012 samples now coming through as positive, Sharipova etc that pea are rife in sports. Hence if Messi has been taken them, as well as others of course, have his performances been enhanced, and thus would it be hard for others to beat this should the governing bodies clamp down on pes?
Do I love Messi, absolutely and for me the best player still, but there is a small cloud over some of the stuff that bugs me.
Why?
Not necessarily, no. Half the England team weren't half the player at national level compared to club level. Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard etc. It happens, it doesn't necessarily mean the club behind them is what makes them good, just that the chemistry is great somewhere and maybe terrible elsewhere. There are too many variables to make such a lazy assumption. Maybe the management has been a little incompetent to get the best out of the player(s). By that same logic, Henry wasn't such a great player and Paul Schloes would be pretty crap going by international performances. But then, it wasn't Schloes fault Sven saw him as a left winger. And as for Henry, the chemistry for France was probably just not there. I think there are certain people that no matter what Messi does, will find some criticism. Maybe because nostalgia is skewing their memories of their beloved boyhood heroes who Messi has likely surpassed. If were gonna say Messi hasn't won a world cup, why can't we say Maradona never did the treble, let alone twice or break goal record after goal record? People hang on to the world cup argument because it's literally the one thing they have left against messi. Yet there are countless things you could say against Maradona when comparing to Messi, be they goal stats, assist stats, individual honours, club honours, you name it. Now, I know it doesn't seem like it, but I'm not saying Messi is better, I'm too young to say, I'm just saying that people have beating Messi with the same stick because it's literally all they have and theyre clearly suffering from cognitive dissonance when it comes to scrutinising him. One rule for Messi, another rule for the rest.
I'm sure there will be a player of Messi's ability in our lifetimes. People forget that football is a relativeley young sport. What makes Messi stand out for me is that all the greats such as Pele, Maradona, Cruijff and Di Stefano could create and score in equal measure but Messi has taken this to a ruthlessly effecient level. He is one of the 5 kings of football with the mentioned. You can always tell the great players when you don't see their names on the scoresheets. Goalscorers don't do much outside of scoring. These players can be the best players on the pitch without hitting the back of the net. Messi is the only forward in that category. The most effecient forward I have ever seen.
Suárez possibly edges it given Messi's injury (it's close), but there's no doubt who the better player is.
It's fecking infuriating how much people focus on stats. Suárez can't touch Messi, even if he scored a lot more.
Only joking, but he will be one hell of a player in a few years time.
Messi has been the best footballer since 2008/2009. You don't stop being the best footballer all of a sudden. People confuse Ballon D'ors with ability. Owen won the Ballon D'or and Raul never did, neither did Henry or Eto'O, but he is not on either of those players level. That award is for the player with the best SEASON, not the best football player.
Agree. Think it's also true though that people focus too much on stats when assessing how good a player was in a season.
And that's the reason for people to compare Messi to Ronaldo when footballistically the later is not even close.
We live in the Stats Era...
We live in the Stats Era...
The world has gone stats crazy. All this stuff that OPTA and their ilk churn out is often misleading.
OK for a Friday night footy debate but it's the intangibles that matter.
He's the best I've seen by a big distance but I can't say I'll never see anyone better.
You should check your information
Zidane isn't even the best footballer of his generation
It's part of the 'amercanisation' of the sport. Since 08/09 Xavi hasd been the second best footballer for me not Ronaldo. We saw what Happened when we put a very good player in a super team, Suarez was on the verge of scoring 60 goals in a season.
The Ballon D'or has become a glorified golden boot.
The debate between Messi and Ronaldo only crops up when Messi isn't at his best. When he is, it is only the media trying to sell papers as you can clearly see that the vast majority of people in football consider Messi in a league on his own. I am not saying that he is or he is not, just that the debate is not as close as you make it sound.
Very good point. To his credit, Ronaldo understood this at Real and changed his game to focus on augmenting his numbers as much as possible. It worked to a certain degree but one can also argue that he lost the vote of the purists in terms of how robotic his game has become. If Messi did not produce more or less similar numbers to Ronaldo, the debate might have been closer but since he does, it is really one sided when the Argentine is at his best.
Yes someone can be better than messi..basically another player like brazilian ronaldo...without the injury problems.
within the next 20 years before medicine reaches that point where all humans end up with superhuman abilities.
within the next 20 years before medicine reaches that point where all humans end up with superhuman abilities.
Also worth noting that Argentina have basically had 5 great attacking players over the last 6-10 years and 3 are 9s in Tevez, Higuain, and Aguero (other being Di Maria) and the latter 2 are really not known for their passing, so Messi has basically been more of a creator than a goal scorer.
Argentina threw away their chances of winning in 2010 by appointing Maradona and not taking Zanetti or Cambiasso. In 2014, they might well have won it if Tevez was the 9 off the bench instead of the mediocre Palacio. It's not Messi's fault he comes from a country with a dysfunctional football (and political) bureaucracy.
I'm only old enough to have seen Rivaldo, Fat Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho and Cristiano in terms of true attacking greats, but I think Messi is comfortably better than each of them. He's the goalscorer the Ronaldos were, while being the passer Zidane was, the dribbler Ronaldinho was (less flashy, but as effective until he started to slow down a tad this past year or so).
Over the last 10 years, only Ozil has been comparable as a consistently devastating final 3rd passer as Messi. I guess there's a case for Totti but I don't think he's been quite as good as those 2 at it. Cesc and Sneijder had incredible peaks in this regard, probably about 2-3 years, when they were comparable, but nowhere near the longevity. Nobody else comes to mind as close to the same sort of end product as a passer. Maybe if Xavi, Pirlo or Modric were 10s and played closer to goal, but they didn't.
I have no idea how good Maradona was. But I've been watching Messi and Cristiano the whole time and there's no comparison for me. The only argument I can really see for Cristiano being his equal is that he's as good a goalscorer and against really packed in, low block defences it's a real positive that he's such an incredible aerial threat. But Giroud and Bergkamp score a similar number of goals and you never hear Arsenal fans argue about who was better. That sounds like trolling but I really don't think it is.
Can someone be as good as Messi in the future? Sure. But I wouldn't bet on it happening particularly soon. Over the next 20-30 years, though someone should emerge. Pele peaked in the 1960s, Maradona in the 1980s and Messi in the early 2010s. So, sometime in the 2030s or 2040s we might see another. This sample size is too small to really be predictive and for all i know I'd be here arguing that Beckenbauer, Di Stefano or Cruyff were as good or better than one of those 3 guys if I was around for their careers, too.