Yann M’Vila

[B20]

Where would he be played then? Just off the striker? I don't think he'd be good there. I think if he can keep his injuries at bay, and that's a big if, he can be a very good CM in a two man midfield.

Should have been stuck on the wing, a la Gerrard on the right or Seedorf and allowed to use his energy, drive and dribbling ability with more abandon.

He's wasted a lot of his potential reigning himself in for central midfield and the payoff has been negligible.

 

[ciderman9000000]

It all boils down to how much we rate Anderson, Cina. Personally I think he's got that world class potential and will make a very good all round midfielder (including defensive duties when necessary, something which I believe he can excel at) for us given a decent run of games.

Is Michael Carrick as good as Yaya Toure? No. But then who is? There's certainly not many in the Premier League who I'd trade him for. Yaya Toure of course. Fellaini maybe. Song? Probably not. Certainly nobody from Chelsea, Liverpool or Spurs. Our midfield will be stronger with Anderson fit and with Vidic back in the center of defence behind them; we'll not be overrun so easily next season.

The Anderson/Cleverley partnership is one to be revered rather than worried about; each of our opening four games of last season saw them partnered in a two man midfield; four wins including the hammering of Spurs, Arsenal and Bolton. Anderson has the tenacity and drive to play the Darren Fletcher role in such a partnership and we'll hopefully see that more and more in seasons to come.

Phil Jones, how old is he? 20? I'm surprised you've already seen enough of him to be able to write off any future for him in the center of midfield. He's still raw in any position, but imo he's shown enough all round quality to suggest that he can perform a kind of upgraded John O'Shea role for the club; I don't see any reason why once his positional sense improves (which it will) that he couldn't play at DM, he has that extra ability to drive forward when necessary that makes him stand out from the stand-alone CB players.

As for the age of Giggs and Scholes, this is something we hear every season. Of course they might only play forty to fifty games between them, but knowing Giggs and Scholes as we do I find it somewhat unusual that a United fan would think that those forty or fifty games would consist for the most part of anything but performances of a very high standard of football.

On top of all the above we then have the largely unknown (to us at least) quantities of Shinji Kagawa and Nick Powell. Who's to say that in twelve months time those two will not have proven to be our first and foremost midfield pairing? Unlikely, I know, but I'm speaking hypothetically to make a point. Players join United and their games change; SAF alters the way they play in order to best make them a United player. Look at how the games of Carrick, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Park, Nani and Rafael have changed over the years at the club; to say then that Kagawa and Powell simply cannot play as CM's before they've even kicked a ball in anger for United is just plain ludicrous.

As I mentioned in my first post above, our midfield situation is complicated. It's not black and white like some make out, it's not easily solved. Signing Yann M'Villa sounds a great solution to us plebs, but perhaps it isn't the best one, perhaps the best solution or solutions already play for the club; who best to trust to make that call on United's behalf than Sir Alex Ferguson?

 

[Massive Spanner]

He got it wrong last season though, he really did. Not signing a midfielder then cost us, we were very, very lucky that Paul Scholes came out of retirement when he did. I don't see why it's so wrong to question him, he has a diabolical record when it comes to midfielders, who has he gotten in the last 10 years other than Carrick that's actually worked out? I don't like the way people on here see it as an automatic sin to actually think that maybe SAF could be wrong about something, do you?

The ship has totally sailed on Anderson for me, I'm not saying he won't make it here, he still can, I think it's extremely unlikely that he will become what we thought he would be now, and that's assuming he actually stays fit.

You make some good points, but at the same time, they're all based around "ifs" and "maybe". If Jones can become a good DM, if Anderson and Cleverley can stay fit, if Scholes/Giggs can still perform, if Shinji miraculously turns into a central midfielder, if Powell (at the age of 18) can cement his place at central midfield. If Carrick (aged 31) can repeat last season.

If say, we did actually sign an out and out central midfielder, knowing exactly what position he plays and what he can do, there are far less ifs in our midfielder then. I'm not suggesting M'Vila is the answer, I rate him, but he was really underwhelming last season in the French league, but there are players out there, they don't even have to be great players that will cost a bomb.

 

[B20]

The Anderson/Cleverley partnership is one to be revered rather than worried about;

A slight variation on "absence makes the heart grow fonder"?

 

[alastair]

Neither Anderson or Cleverley are anywhere near good enough to start as a duo for title contenders. At least, not right not they're not.

 

[BAMSOLA]

Neither Anderson or Cleverley are anywhere near good enough to start as a duo for title contenders. At least, not right not they're not.

They did last season when we contended for the title and I believe they were together in CM when we beat you 8-2 correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Neither Anderson or Cleverley are anywhere near good enough to start as a duo for title contenders. At least, not right not they're not.

Yeah, they didn't do too well against you lot last season, did they?

I agree though, it's not good enough as a midfield 2. They need Carrick beside them to add the defensive stability.

They did last season when we contended for the title and I believe they were together in CM when we beat you 8-2 correct me if i'm wrong.

For 5 games.

 

[alastair]

They did last season when we contended for the title and I believe they were together in CM when we beat you 8-2 correct me if i'm wrong.

They weren't a consistent duo, that's the point. One off games, yeh, it'll work against the also-rans at home, and an Arsenal side in complete disarray.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He walked into that one...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They weren't a consistent duo, that's the point. One off games, yeh, it'll work against the also-rans at home, and an Arsenal side in complete disarray.

Almost half of our games are against "also rans at home", so I'm not sure what your point is.

Oh and by the way, Cleverley and Anderson were playing as a pair when we beat Chelsea and Spurs as well as Arsenal.

 

[alastair]

If anyone genuinely thinks the Arsenal game of last season is in any way proof that the partnership could work right now against the top sides in the league, they need sectioning. Most midfields are better than Ramsey-Rosicky-Coquelin(two of whom were barely fit) and it's not hard to destroy a defence with Jenkinson and Djourou.

 

[alastair]

Almost half of our games are against "also rans at home", so I'm not sure what your point is.

Oh and by the way, Cleverley and Anderson were playing as a pair when we beat Chelsea and Spurs as well as Arsenal.

Well obviously Ferguson thinks it'll work because it seems like he won't strengthen there at all.

My personal suspicion is that this is Anderson's last season, and that Cleverley may well be partnered by 'that marquee signing' next year.

 

[BAMSOLA]

Yeah, they didn't do too well against you lot last season, did they?

I agree though, it's not good enough as a midfield 2. They need Carrick beside them to add the defensive stability.
For 5 games.

Yes and were doing very well until they were seperated by injuries.

Having seen the evidence of those 5 games against very good oposition (Arsenal and Chelsea as well as Totenham amongst them all victories) where is the evidence to say that injuries permitting they couldn't inprove on their minor short comings when playing together and form a stellar partnership?

They weren't a consistent duo, that's the point. One off games, yeh, it'll work against the also-rans at home, and an Arsenal side in complete disarray.

They both started pretty much all of our openning 5 prem games that season before being seperated by injuries and did very well as we were unbeaten against at least 3 top 6 sides. As for an Arsenal team in disarray, any excuse I guess......

 

[Chabon]

Almost half of our games are against "also rans at home", so I'm not sure what your point is.

Oh and by the way, Cleverley and Anderson were playing as a pair when we beat Chelsea and Spurs as well as Arsenal.

And, y'know, City, the eventual champions.

 

[Ash_G]

swear it was Fletch and Ando against Chelsea.

Like I said I think Ando could do that role in some games, particularly if he's partnered by Clev, although it may still be dodgy imo against better teams. But those two are currently our most unreliable midfielders fitness wise. If Carrick and Clev are both out then personally I wouldn't fancy a midfield of Ando and Scholes/Giggs/Powell, not agaist anyone half decent. Even in this preseason, scholes has been good on the ball but off it he's been more than lucky to stay on the pitch in some games.

At the moment we just don't know if Ando can be a more attacking player or a more defensive one, but what we do know is that virtually every top team has midfielders who are both good on the ball and strong defensively. Some player 1 at a time others play 2 either way they have the option.

We don't have that as Fletcher is out, there is no viable alternative to Carrick, bar Ando who might be able to do that role and who imo at least would need certain partners to do it alright let alone effectively.

We could sign someone this season as cover for Carrick and they'd get enough games imo. Yes we'd be well stocked for one season but that's it. Next season we could have a 32yr old Carrick, new player, Clev and Ando. The latter two are not guarnateed to step up and if they do they can both play as the more attacking player. Fletcher if he does make it back is unlikely to be a relaible option over a whole season and Powell is young enough that he doesn't need to play all the time and may still end up as more off an attacking mid.

So personally I don't see the need to take a risk. It's not even just one risk, it's the risk that Ando can actually stay fit, particularly when we need him and the risk that he can actually do that role consistently against good teams. Taking the first is fine as with clev/scholes/giggs and powell there's bodies but I think the other role is just two important as the players mentioned all have some sort of fault with the exception of clev which means they're reliant on a good partner imo.

 

[RedSky]

The Clev + Ando Experiment lasted a total of 308 minutes in 4 premiership games and 1 Charity Shield game. With the midfield combination on the pitch we scored
14 goals and conceded just 2. See Breakdown below:

[B]Competition      Fixture             Mins     Goals Scored    Goals Conceded[/B]

Charity Shield   Utd v City         45mins	   3	            0
Premiership      West Brom v Utd    90mins	   2	            1
Premiership      Utd v Spurs        81mins	   2	            0
Premiership      Utd v Arsenal      68mins	   5	            1
Premiership      Bolton v Utd       24mins	   2	            0

 

[Ash_G]

Not really a fair stat as the Arsenal game hugely inflates that not to mention they could have scored a lot more goals than they did and both them and spurs were weakened.

But anyway I've said before we could probably get away with ando and clev, but it's the games where ando has to be the defensive player and he doesn't have clev next to him. Games where he could be partnered by scholes, giggs, powell etc, that's where I worry about him .

 

[RedSky]

Not really a fair stat as the Arsenal game hugely inflates that not to mention they could have scored a lot more goals than they did and both them and spurs were weakened.

Spurs game we had just as many 1st team players out as Spurs if not more. They were without Modric/Parker and Adebayour (don't think Parker/Adebayour were signed by the time we played them).

Arsenal game hardly inflates the stat when you consider the same partnership beat City 3-0 in 45mins.

The only misleading thing about this stat is that the opposition on the whole had alot of shots on our goal. Although you could argue that our defense was a mess at that point mainly due to adding in De Gea and Jones.

 

[Ash_G]

Spurs game we had just as many 1st team players out as Spurs if not more. They were without Modric/Parker and Adebayour (don't think Parker/Adebayour were signed by the time we played them).

Arsenal game hardly inflates the stat when you consider the same partnership beat City 3-0 in 45mins.

The only misleading thing about this stat is that the opposition on the whole had alot of shots on our goal. Although you could argue that our defense was a mess at that point mainly due to adding in De Gea and Jones.

Yeah but in the middle where it matters they were really weak to what you expect and either way in that game we were still very open. A midfield of oshea, gibson and the twins once beat Arsenal who put out a decent team but I doubt you'd be happy with that.

Like I said Clev and Ando could be alright, both are hard workers and the mistakes they make can be ironed out with time, personally I think if we did have to rely on those two for a series of decently hard games we'd get cut open in the middle a fair bit, whether we lose or not depends on how strong the attack/defence are.

But as I said, my bigger concern is when it's not Carrick or Clev partnering Ando. If we assume the latter two are first choice and will play if fit then there will be times where neither can partner Ando and that's where I think we'll have an issue. If they were to get injured we'd have an issue as well.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Not really a fair stat as the Arsenal game hugely inflates that not to mention they could have scored a lot more goals than they did and both them and spurs were weakened.

But anyway I've said before we could probably get away with ando and clev, but it's the games where ando has to be the defensive player and he doesn't have clev next to him. Games where he could be partnered by scholes, giggs, powell etc, that's where I worry about him .

With a midfield pairing of Ando/Cleverley we scored fourteen goals and conceded just two in five games which included City, Arsenal and Spurs as opponents; against just those three they scored ten and conceded just one. The pairing was a great success and with it we played the best football of our entire season, and yet you're still questioning their suitability to play together?

By my reckoning we've got two strong midfield partnerships in Carrick/Scholes and Ando/Cleverley, that's without even mentioning Giggs, Kagawa, Jones and Powell. If we're hit by extensive long-term injuries then that's just bad luck, it's something which really can't be helped; as I've said above, if SAF had concerns about Anderson, Cleverly or Carrick's fitness then he wouldn't be going into a season relying upon them. It's easy to point out injuries in hindsight, but if SAF has been given the okay from his medical team regarding the aforementioned players for the season ahead then he'll trust that judgement and just hope for better luck this time around.

Managers don't plan for multiple long-term injuries by buying direct replacements just in case a crisis arises, they cannot afford that luxury whilst keeping everybody happy, what they do instead is they simply bodge makeshift XI's in in such circumstances and hope for the best. IIRC only Manchester City managed to get through last season largely un-effected by injuries, and that was a case of old fashioned blind-luck rather than any impenetrable squad-depth that Mancini has masterminded; when they did lose Yaya Toure the effect was noticeable. They've signed Rodwell as support, but has that made them really all that much stronger?

Nasri        Cleverley 
Rodwell      Powell 
Barry        Carrick 
Silva        Kagawa 
De Jong      Anderson 
Toure        Scholes

I honestly can't see much difference there in terms of depth and quality. Try picking the best six players from those twelve; I bet you no matter how often you attempt it you won't be able to justify selecting more than three of the City players.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I most certainly can. Yaya isn't on international duty this season, and is an absolute country mile ahead of anything we have in midfield.

 

[VeevaVee]

Apart from Carrick/Scholes they aren't established players that we know we can rely on. City have a mix of the ridiculously technical and the ridiculously strong which is a nice position for them to be in. At the moment I'd say we just have a group of inbetweeners.

 

[ciderman9000000]

I most certainly can. Yaya isn't on international duty this season, and is an absolute country mile ahead of anything we have in midfield.

So you're overrating Toure then? Is that what this is about?

What if he gets injured? Your City supporting counterpart will be moaning just as much as you are, claiming that a couple of injuries would decimate the midfield. What of it? Teams just have to deal with that.

 

[KM]

I most certainly can. Yaya isn't on international duty this season, and is an absolute country mile ahead of anything we have in midfield.

Err he's on international duty this season also. He'll be going to ACN.

 

[Massive Spanner]

So you're overrating Toure then? Is that what this is about?

What if he gets injured? Your City supporting counterpart will be moaning just as much as you are, claiming that a couple of injuries would decimate the midfield. What of it? Teams just have to deal with that.

Yay is the key, but just look at the ages of the teams, 2 of the players of our 6 are over 30, one of them is even 38! Barry is their oldest player at 31, the rest are all between 22 - 28. Not to mention that they've nobody (other than maybe Rodwell?) with injury records like Anderson and Cleverley do either. As exciting as Kagawa is, he's not proven in the PL like Silva is. Gareth Barry was every bit as good for City last season as Carrick was for us (not as good a player on his day though). Rodwell has more PL experience than Powell. Nasri is a better player than Cleverley (right now) and De Jong is a better player than Anderson.

I really don't know how you can say those midfields aren't a gulf apart.

Err he's on international duty this season also. He'll be going to ACN.

That's on yearly? feck me, thought it was every 2 years. That's crazy

 

[Commadus]

Kagawa plays in central midfield?

I thought he was better in the free role behind the striker. Or we gonna try to do another "Anderson" and shoehorn into a position.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Kagawa plays in central midfield?

I thought he was better in the free role behind the striker. Or we gonna try to do another "Anderson" and shoehorn into a position.

He's comparing him to Silva who plays a similar role for his team, not actually calling him a midfielder.

Though come to think of it, seems like you just did that so we could add Kagawa to the mix. Otherwise you'd have to include a 39 year old Ryan Giggs, or leave him out

 

[BD]

That's on yearly? feck me, thought it was every 2 years. That's crazy

It's usually every two years, but is on next year, and then every two years again. I think it's to make it out of synch with the WC, could be wrong though.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yeah I always thought it was every 2 years, which was already too much for a competition in sync with the PL, La Liga etc. Oh well, off topic.

 

[ciderman9000000]

It's usually every two years, but is on next year, and then every two years again. I think it's to make it out of synch with the WC, could be wrong though.

It's to make it the season immediately after the major international tournaments rather than the season immediately before. More money for them that way apparently.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Yay is the key, but just look at the ages of the teams, 2 of the players of our 6 are over 30, one of them is even 38! Barry is their oldest player at 31, the rest are all between 22 - 28.

All you've basically said there is that Scholes is 38. He's still one of the best CM's in the league though, if not the best.

Cleverley hasn't given us any reason to believe him to be injury prone, I'm not sure where that myth has popped up from, and as I keep saying, if SAF had cause to believe Anderson's injuries have been anything other than bad luck then he'd buy a replacement for him no doubt.

Barry will never be as good as Carrick. Powell has just as much potential as Rodwell and Kagawa could easily become our David Silva. I'm torn between who I'd prefer from Nasri and Cleverley.

 

[Commadus]

I thinki we have enough in our squad for a good premier league campaign but I dont think we have enough quality to win the champions league bar huge slices of chelsea-esque fortune.

 

[alastair]

All you've basically said there is that Scholes is 38. He's still one of the best CM's in the league though, if not the best.

Cleverley hasn't given us any reason to believe him to be injury prone, I'm not sure where that myth has popped up from, and as I keep saying, if SAF had cause to believe Anderson's injuries have been anything other than bad luck then he'd buy a replacement for him no doubt.

Barry will never be as good as Carrick. Powell has just as much potential as Rodwell and Kagawa could easily become our David Silva. I'm torn between who I'd prefer from Nasri and Cleverley.

Scholes is not one of the best CMs in the league anymore. He used to be, but not any more. He does a good job considering his age though.

Most City fans I'm sure would argue, probably correctly, that Rodwell is much further down the line than Powell at this stage and could be used much sooner, and at this point in time there is really no argument between Nasri and Cleverley.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Scholes is still one of the best, there's no doubt about that.

Rodwell has been entirely unimpressive in many Premier League outings, it's a strange signing from City. He's more developed than Powell but he's hardly developed very well.

As for Nasri and Cleverley, which is the better player? It's not as clear cut as you make out. Nasri hasn't set the world alight at City though he does seem to be regaining some of his Arsenal form. Cleverley though just looks the perfect player for United, he's every bit as good as Jack Wilshere, very similar in style and both Cleverley and Wilshere I expect will soon make Samir Nasri look ordinary.

 

[Ash_G]

With a midfield pairing of Ando/Cleverley we scored fourteen goals and conceded just two in five games which included City, Arsenal and Spurs as opponents; against just those three they scored ten and conceded just one. The pairing was a great success and with it we played the best football of our entire season, and yet you're still questioning their suitability to play together?

By my reckoning we've got two strong midfield partnerships in Carrick/Scholes and Ando/Cleverley, that's without even mentioning Giggs, Kagawa, Jones and Powell. If we're hit by extensive long-term injuries then that's just bad luck, it's something which really can't be helped; as I've said above, if SAF had concerns about Anderson, Cleverly or Carrick's fitness then he wouldn't be going into a season relying upon them. It's easy to point out injuries in hindsight, but if SAF has been given the okay from his medical team regarding the aforementioned players for the season ahead then he'll trust that judgement and just hope for better luck this time around.

Managers don't plan for multiple long-term injuries by buying direct replacements just in case a crisis arises, they cannot afford that luxury whilst keeping everybody happy, what they do instead is they simply bodge makeshift XI's in in such circumstances and hope for the best. IIRC only Manchester City managed to get through last season largely un-effected by injuries, and that was a case of old fashioned blind-luck rather than any impenetrable squad-depth that Mancini has masterminded; when they did lose Yaya Toure the effect was noticeable. They've signed Rodwell as support, but has that made them really all that much stronger?

Nasri        Cleverley 
Rodwell      Powell 
Barry        Carrick 
Silva        Kagawa 
De Jong      Anderson 
Toure        Scholes

I honestly can't see much difference there in terms of depth and quality. Try picking the best six players from those twelve; I bet you no matter how often you attempt it you won't be able to justify selecting more than three of the City players.

Yes I would still question that as in both those games we were extremely open against Arsenal who came out in suicide fashion and had a v weak team and spurs who had weaknesses in middle. As I said both were open and easily could have gone differently. If Arsenal had scored their pen they'd have been 2-2 at HT. Who know's how the game would have gone. The 6-1 against City wasn't a fair reflection of the game nor a real indication at the strength of the two teams and neither imo was the Arsenal game.

But either way I'm not even saying I have an issue with Clev-Ando, I think it'll be ok and could be great, although atm I wouldn't be particularly comfortable going in to hard games with it.

My point is that for the talent we have in the midfield most of it is attacking. City might not have particularly talented players in the middle outside of Toure, but Barry, De Jong, Milner and even Rodwell are all solid midfielders capable of giving them strong defensive strength and enough ability to keep the ball rolling to bring in the attacking players ahead.

We don't have that balance. Scholes and Giggs offer lots in attack but both are only suited to some games and need others to cover for their lack of energy. Clev and Ando are still not proven and are still learning. I don't really think either could really play alongside the former 2 against good opposition without us getting a bit lucky.

Powell is already taking a big step up, is very inexperienced and used to playing further upfield. He'll need protection.

Like I said i'm not saying there isn't enough quality there but simply we don't have a viable alternative to Carrick. From an attacking point of view I don't have any issues. If they stay fit clev and ando can give us something there and scholes and giggs can provide quality for certain games.

But from a defensive point of view, which regardless of our increased ability to keep the ball, is still important we lack options. Every other team plays with at least 1 defensively strong midfielder, some play with 2 and the majority of teams I can think off have good cover for them. At the very least there are few midfields which have as many players reliant on their partner that I can think off.

 

[Massive Spanner]

All you've basically said there is that Scholes is 38. He's still one of the best CM's in the league though, if not the best.

Cleverley hasn't given us any reason to believe him to be injury prone, I'm not sure where that myth has popped up from, and as I keep saying, if SAF had cause to believe Anderson's injuries have been anything other than bad luck then he'd buy a replacement for him no doubt.

Barry will never be as good as Carrick. Powell has just as much potential as Rodwell and Kagawa could easily become our David Silva. I'm torn between who I'd prefer from Nasri and Cleverley.

There's no point having this debate with you if you're going to overrate our players so much cider. I can't understand how you'd compare their midfield to ours and say they're basically level.

I mean you're saying a 38 year old Paul Scholes who retired a year ago is still possibly the best central midfielder in the league? Ridiculous! And this is coming from someone who's favourite ever player is Paul Scholes, by the way.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Well I'll put my money where my mouth is then. I'm willing to bet £10 with one of you that United end this next Premier League campaign with a better defensive record than Manchester City (decided upon by lowest total goals conceded).

 

[alastair]

Tom Cleverley as good as Jack Wilshere is the comment of a wum or someone who's never seen the two play.

 

[Massive Spanner]

D'feck does that have to do with our midfield? Of course we can do that with a fit Nemanja Vidic and Rio Ferdinand in defense.

I already said I think we'll win the league (despite our midfield), I'd never make a bet like that.

 

[ciderman9000000]

There's no point having this debate with you if you're going to overrate our players so much cider. I can't understand how you'd compare their midfield to ours and say they're basically level.

I mean you're saying a 38 year old Paul Scholes who retired a year ago is still possibly the best central midfielder in the league? Ridiculous! And this is coming from someone who's favourite ever player is Paul Scholes, by the way.

Likewise if you continue to underrate them.

Paul Scholes is still one of the Premier League's best players. You keep bringing up his retirement as if that makes him a lesser player; well, it doesn't. He was instrumental in United's title campaign last season, arguably our player of the season; we lost the league on goal difference, but had City not scored those two injury-time winners Scholes would have pulled the strings of yet another title, his influence was undeniable. How can that not qualify him as being one of the very best in the league?