Gaming Xbox Series X|S

[Bebe]

Fecking hell, that's insane. Ok, Arkane Austin is perhaps not a huge surprise after Redfall, but considering this is also the studio behind Prey, it's a massive loss.

Tango Gameworks though, wasn't Hi-Fi Rush considered a success? That's on par with Roll7 getting closed down by Take 2 after delivering games like OlliOlli World and Rollerdrome.

Much as I love Prey, everything about Arkane Austin that made that game possible had left before Redfall even released.

Tango is a very strange one to see as they just delivered Xbox's most original hit in ages.

What's really sad personally is to see the messaging from MS that "Don't worry, we've still got Starfield DLC as well as Fallout 76 and Elder Scrolls online content coming!". I don't want any of those things.

 

[Ainu]

Much as I love Prey, everything about Arkane Austin that made that game possible had left before Redfall even released.

Tango is a very strange one to see as they just delivered Xbox's most original hit in ages.

What's really sad personally is to see the messaging from MS that "Don't worry, we've still got Starfield DLC as well as Fallout 76 and Elder Scrolls online content coming!". I don't want any of those things.

You're probably right about Arkane Austin, it's not Redfall's release that ruined that studio, but its development.

Tango is another story. Hi-Fi Rush was supposedly one of those game pass success stories, at least according to MS. Fast forward a year later and studio is gone, just like that. If that's how they treat their success stories, good luck to everyone else.

 

[Alock1]

Rough and shitty

Tango is the killer of course. Greatly received and Microsoft had spent so longer looking to acquire teams in Japan. Shame.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Killing off Tango says it all about Microsoft’s commitment, or lack of, to creating quality single player experiences.

 

[evil_geko]

Fecking hell, that's insane. Ok, Arkane Austin is perhaps not a huge surprise after Redfall, but considering this is also the studio behind Prey, it's a massive loss.

Tango Gameworks though, wasn't Hi-Fi Rush considered a success? That's on par with Roll7 getting closed down by Take 2 after delivering games like OlliOlli World and Rollerdrome.

It was expected of Tango Gameworks, after Shinji Mikami left the studio last year, studio was directionless, I expected this unfortunately. I don't care much for Hi-Fi Rush but I do care for Evil Within series from them which is now dead in the water.

This just continues the trend in the industry unfortunately, whole IT, not just gaming space.

 

[Vidyoyo]

It's so sad that the industry still is like this.

But it's no surprise. I've spoke so much about MS and how they have been with gaming and treated developers, and warned about the GP, but we are all just simple consumers at the end of the day. It's sad, but it's life.

Maybe it would have been better all along if EA did buy the MS division 10 years ago. At least people might have dropped the silly console war and focused on one common enemy

not played Hi Fi Rush myself.

It's funny, for all the praise Prey got, I preferred Dishonored.

No idea what Redfall was supposed to be all along though, it's so weirdly unfocused.

You must be devastated by this recent development

 

[Ainu]

It was expected of Tango Gameworks, after Shinji Mikami left the studio last year, studio was directionless, I expected this unfortunately. I don't care much for Hi-Fi Rush but I do care for Evil Within series from them which is now dead in the water.

This just continues the trend in the industry unfortunately, whole IT, not just gaming space.

I guess there's a sort of silver lining in that Mikami has already founded a new studio and must surely be calling up a few of his former colleagues now.

 

[Damien]

The closures included Tokyo-based Tango Gameworks, which last year released the critically acclaimed action game Hi-Fi Rush. Tango was in the process of pitching a sequel, said the people, who asked not to be identified discussing nonpublic information.

Before its closure, Arkane had been looking to return to its roots by pitching a new single-player "immersive sim" game, such as a new entry in the Dishonored series, according to the people familiar.

 

[esmufc07]

@Alock1 getting fired soon.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Sounds like Microsoft are considering turning Gamepass into a proxy CoD subscription service. That'd be pretty sweet

shit*

 

[Ainu]

It really is a race to the bottom for who can get the worst PR this last week. The competition gave it a good go but ultimately no one can stand against the might of MS.

 

[Vidyoyo]

It really is a race to the bottom for who can get the worst PR this last week. The competition gave it a good go but ultimately no one can stand against the might of MS.

I missed this. What happened with Sony?

Did they cancel a remaster or something? No this thread is not for that

 

[Alock1]

Hellblade 2 is bound to go to PS5 at some point. It'll do a lot better there too.

Spencer surprised me recently when he reaffirmed new cods would hit gamepass day 1.

It really is a race to the bottom for who can get the worst PR this last week. The competition gave it a good go but ultimately no one can stand against the might of MS.

All will be forgiven when they have a banging E3 next month and we see what they've been cooking. Futures looking green despite this little hiccup.

 

[Alock1]

@Alock1 getting fired soon.

Jokes on you mate cause I'm already unemployed

 

[Damien]

Spencer surprised me recently when he reaffirmed new cods would hit gamepass day 1.

In the business update thing? Yeah after that I've got no doubts that they will be coming day one.

If Hellblade II goes elsewhere 6 months or more down the line I don't think it'll do that great. Really hope Ninja Theory won't be in danger but it is damning that there's been no marketing for a game coming out in 2 weeks.

 

[Alock1]

In the business update thing? Yeah after that I've got no doubts that they will be coming day one.

If Hellblade II goes elsewhere 6 months or more down the line I don't think it'll do that great. Really hope Ninja Theory won't be in danger but it is damning that there's been no marketing for a game coming out in 2 weeks.

I guess they sell so much more on PS and even Steam that putting on gamepass won't impact the numbers too much. Plus battlepass revenue etc obviously.

The delay could have some impact but Hellblade 1 had a pretty long tail and has got a base of players on Playstation. I think it depends on timing. Though when the likes of Alan Wake 2 still haven't broken even then it's clearly tough for those sort of games right now (unless they're Sony first party it seems)

Im also interested to see how PlayStation and Microsoft plays out marketing wise. You can't imagine PS pushing it at all when it's had a exclusive window on Xbox granted - but with likes of COD that dynamic will obviously change. That's a shame though - because PS co marketing with 3rd party publishers particularly for a game like Hellblade would usually be pretty significant.

As for Xboxs marketing - their budgets have been barely existent for a long time now. The difference in media spend vs Sony is massive - the multiple is way bigger than the difference in their gaming revenue / console numbers too. There's a lot of reliance on gamepass doing the marketing itself - but that only works to existing and active users and there's no upside off the back of it.

Theyll be prioritising creative and media spend for Hellblade 2 following reviews as they hope to hit a high metacritic.

You're right it could come under pressure. Award season and winning at game awards might be saving grace.

 

[Alock1]

I missed this. What happened with Sony?

Did they cancel a remaster or something? No this thread is not for that

I'm sure @Damien will have made sure to post all about it in the relevant thread..

 

[Damien]

Theyll be prioritising creative and media spend for Hellblade 2 following reviews as they hope to hit a high metacritic.

You're right it could come under pressure. Award season and winning at game awards might be saving grace.

The problem with all of that is Hi-Fi Rush was the most acclaimed Xbox game last year, winning and nominated for a crapload more awards than what was supposed to be Xbox's biggest game so far this generation and that didn't stop them from being closed.

Today, one day after Microsoft announced that it would shut down four of its games studios, Matt Booty, head of Xbox Game Studios, held a town hall to discuss the division's future goals. "We need smaller games that give us prestige and awards," Booty told employees, according to internal remarks shared with The Verge.

For some listeners on the call, it was a surprising goal: Microsoft had just shut down the Japanese developer Tango Gameworks, which was coming off the small, prestigious hit title Hi-Fi Rush.

 

[Damien]

Someone who worked at MS for five years:

 

[esmufc07]

Is Phil Spencer Microsoft’s Ten Hag?

 

[Alock1]

Is Phil Spencer Microsoft’s Ten Hag?

Handcuffed by injuries and overperforming in the circumstances? Probably

 

[Alock1]

The problem with all of that is Hi-Fi Rush was the most acclaimed Xbox game last year, winning and nominated for a crapload more awards than what was supposed to be Xbox's biggest game so far this generation and that didn't stop them from being closed.

Well I do think there is some difference. Ninja Theory being based in UK, having more big award potential this year due to quieter year, and being the sort of game that's comparable to Sonys 'bangers' with the demanding graphics, gritty tone, story driven cinematic experience etc.etc. But point taken.

Sounds like Tango suffered largely from being based in Japan, recently losing Mikami, and not being in the middle of a dev cycle making them an easier target to reduce complication and overheads. Agree that its very short sighted. They had an established IP with assets and a solid foundation to build a sequel from - that would be here sooner and with more confidence than a number of their new ips being developed by new studios who have no proven track record. A Japanese studio could be so important in a world where they want to focus more on being a 3rd party publisher. And the whole pitching mode timing sends a terrible message to the rest of the studios. Will everyone feel pressure to spin up 2nd teams to focus on prototyping/pre production of the next game rather than delivering their current product to make themselves harder to unknot.

 

[Alock1]

I've no doubt Microsoft will be one of the main places we soon start hearing news of layoffs or at the very least leaver/contractor replacements by AI. With the openai investment and co pilot I think they will be one of the first places looking to squeeze for ai efficiency.

 

[Damien]

Spoiler

In more positive(?) news:

 

[Herman Toothrot]

I think I'll play Hellblade then end my xbox subscription. I somehow feel less ripped off buying games through Steam.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I've no doubt Microsoft will be one of the main places we soon start hearing news of layoffs or at the very least leaver/contractor replacements by AI. With the openai investment and co pilot I think they will be one of the first places looking to squeeze for ai efficiency.

They’re hiring like mad in Ireland again.

 

[Alock1]

They’re hiring like mad in Ireland again.

Yeah they've got good growth in lots of areas of the business and I think they're really well placed to capitalise on the ai opportunity. I just I expect them to be one of the leaders when it comes to job displacement to AI for certain roles.

 

[Alock1]

I don't at all understand the notion that this shows gamepass is a doomed and flawed strategy though. Arkane was always doomed - the talent had left when Bethesda pushed them to make a live service. MS delayed Redfall by a year and it still came out a mess. If someone else buys Bethesda, I'm convinced it get canned and the studio shut before it even released.

Im not convinced Tango got shut down because it didnt achieve certain numbers. Obviously huge numbers would save it but otherwise it sounds like it was more an easy target to hit cost saving numbers. But even if you presume it is about the numbers.. Do people really think Hi-fi Rush sells well on Xbox if gamepass doesn't exist? And even if multiplat - look at the sales of Ghostwire which had a year exclusive on Playstation.

 

[Balljy]

I don't at all understand the notion that this shows gamepass is a doomed and flawed strategy though. Arkane was always doomed - the talent had left when Bethesda pushed them to make a live service. MS delayed Redfall by a year and it still came out a mess. If someone else buys Bethesda, I'm convinced it get canned and the studio shut before it even released.

Im not convinced Tango got shut down because it didnt achieve certain numbers. Obviously huge numbers would save it but otherwise it sounds like it was more an easy target to hit cost saving numbers. But even if you presume it is about the numbers.. Do people really think Hi-fi Rush sells well on Xbox if gamepass doesn't exist? And even if multiplat - look at the sales of Ghostwire which had a year exclusive on Playstation.

I think the main issue is the Tango example, although depending on talent it could be said about the other studios. Hi-fi Rush won a load of awards and was obviously produced by a very talented team, that's exactly the sort of studio that MS should be working with and one where there is potential to produce great games in the future. That eventually brings in money, but might not straight away.

When you look at what they've done, they've kept the big IP's and dropped the small ones seemingly ignoring talent. I think that's where Sony and MS differ as you don't necessarily get the numbers straight away, but it's possible to see the teams that can produce them in the next few years.

 

[afrocentricity]

Is Phil Spencer Microsoft’s Ten Hag?

He's their Ole mate....

 

[Bebe]

I don't at all understand the notion that this shows gamepass is a doomed and flawed strategy though. Arkane was always doomed - the talent had left when Bethesda pushed them to make a live service. MS delayed Redfall by a year and it still came out a mess. If someone else buys Bethesda, I'm convinced it get canned and the studio shut before it even released.

Im not convinced Tango got shut down because it didnt achieve certain numbers. Obviously huge numbers would save it but otherwise it sounds like it was more an easy target to hit cost saving numbers. But even if you presume it is about the numbers.. Do people really think Hi-fi Rush sells well on Xbox if gamepass doesn't exist? And even if multiplat - look at the sales of Ghostwire which had a year exclusive on Playstation.

It's a fair question, but I think the salient point is that games on gamepass don't sell well. Hi-Fi Rush was shadow dropped and available for free* via GP - I don't see that either of those facts positively contributes to sales. It's fair to ask whether the game would have sold well if GP didn't exist, but I think it's also fair to point out that it's sales would arguably (and I'm not sure it's even arguable) be better if GP didn't exist.

 

[Vidyoyo]

It's a fair question, but I think the salient point is that games on gamepass don't sell well. Hi-Fi Rush was shadow dropped and available for free* via GP - I don't see that either of those facts positively contributes to sales. It's fair to ask whether the game would have sold well if GP didn't exist, but I think it's also fair to point out that it's sales would arguably (and I'm not sure it's even arguable) be better if GP didn't exist.

The PS5 sales show a decent example of how it might have sold had it not been a non-Game Pass game and it didn't do particularly well on there either.

Mercifully, Tango Gamework's Hi-Fi Rush fared better than Pentiment, although not remarkably better. In its PS5 launch week (data from week ending Sunday, March 24, 2024), Hi-Fi Rush made it to the #124 spot on our top 200 PlayStation Chart.

To put that in perspective, there was a 173.24% difference between Hi-Fi Rush's debut PS5 player count and Dragon Dogma 2's debut PS5 player count. Both games launched the same week, but Dragon's Dogma 2 hit the #9 spot, while Hi-Fi Rush didn't even graze the top 100. At the #24 spot, it's also worth pointing out that PS5 exclusive Rise of the Ronin also beat Hi-Fi Rush's debut player count by 144.33%.

https://www.truetrophies.com/news/xbox-games-player-count-march-2024

Unless PS5 players were being particularly vindicative because it was an Xbox exclusive for a while, I don't think this kind of game sells well. It's too niche.

 

[Damien]

Unless PS5 players were being particularly vindicative because it was original an Xbox exclusive, I just don't think this kind of game sells well. It's niche as feck.

It's complicated. I think it and Pentiment are the sorts of games which would have done better day one, especially with the good word of mouth from people playing through Game Pass. After a year or so there's just not that level of interest in ports (see: pretty much all PS ports on PC). Only the big hitters like Sea of Thieves, Forza Horizon 5 and Starfield would produce big numbers after over a year.

 

[Vidyoyo]

It's complicated. I think it and Pentiment are the sorts of games which would have done better day one, especially with the good word of mouth from people playing through Game Pass. After a year or so there's just not that level of interest in ports (see: pretty much all PS ports on PC). Only the big hitters like Sea of Thieves, Forza Horizon 5 and Starfield would produce big numbers after over a year.

Yeah I imagine there's some truth to that

 

[Bebe]

The PS5 sales show a decent example of how it might have sold had it not been a non-Game Pass game and it didn't do particularly well on there either.

Mercifully, Tango Gamework's Hi-Fi Rush fared better than Pentiment, although not remarkably better. In its PS5 launch week (data from week ending Sunday, March 24, 2024), Hi-Fi Rush made it to the #124 spot on our top 200 PlayStation Chart.

To put that in perspective, there was a 173.24% difference between Hi-Fi Rush's debut PS5 player count and Dragon Dogma 2's debut PS5 player count. Both games launched the same week, but Dragon's Dogma 2 hit the #9 spot, while Hi-Fi Rush didn't even graze the top 100. At the #24 spot, it's also worth pointing out that PS5 exclusive Rise of the Ronin also beat Hi-Fi Rush's debut player count by 144.33%.

https://www.truetrophies.com/news/xbox-games-player-count-march-2024

Unless PS5 players were being particularly vindicative because it was an Xbox exclusive for a while, I don't think this kind of game sells well. It's too niche.

Fair points and I appreciate the researched response. I agree that it's a niche title and expecting it to sell gangbusters is probably foolish thinking no matter what platform it's on.

My point was in response to the question "do people think it would have sold well on Xbox if it had not been on gamepass?", and my answer is basically "not being on gamepass would likely have improved the game's sales". I base that answer on the notion that gamepass tends to harm a game's sales numbers (as noted in the post Damien posted above). Whether it would have sold "well" depends on how many sales that word means.

It's all a big game of "what if?", but I think had the game released on Xbox with reasonable promotion, it likely would have sold better than shadow dropping it with no promotion and having it available on gamepass. Had it come out on PS5 at the same time, and with similar reasonable promotion, would likely have further boosted sales.

 

[Alock1]

Fair points and I appreciate the researched response. I agree that it's a niche title and expecting it to sell gangbusters is probably foolish thinking no matter what platform it's on.

My point was in response to the question "do people think it would have sold well on Xbox if it had not been on gamepass?", and my answer is basically "not being on gamepass would likely have improved the game's sales". I base that answer on the notion that gamepass tends to harm a game's sales numbers (as noted in the post Damien posted above). Whether it would have sold "well" depends on how many sales that word means.

It's all a big game of "what if?", but I think had the game released on Xbox with reasonable promotion, it likely would have sold better than shadow dropping it with no promotion and having it available on gamepass. Had it come out on PS5 at the same time, and with similar reasonable promotion, would likely have further boosted sales.

Absolutely it sells better without gamepass, of course it does. But with gamepass it can contribute to sustained revenue there and MS can point to the number of people who played etc. My point was more that I don't understand how gamepass is seen as the problem. Without it, I don't see how those studios fates differ. But more importantly, how many Series X/S would be out there at all without gamepass.

It might not be enough to get the hardware sales close to Playstation, but without it - where would Xbox be?

I understand lack of growth in gamepass will have contributed to pressure to cut costs. But the alternative wouldn't have sustained these studios.

 

[Fully Fledged]

In the business update thing? Yeah after that I've got no doubts that they will be coming day one.

If Hellblade II goes elsewhere 6 months or more down the line I don't think it'll do that great. Really hope Ninja Theory won't be in danger but it is damning that there's been no marketing for a game coming out in 2 weeks.

I think they might be in trouble. I don't see it selling well, and the studio head has left. The studio head leaving has been given as a reason for Tango being shuttered. Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, 'You've Been Tango'd'.

 

[Ainu]

I think they might be in trouble. I don't see it selling well, and the studio head has left. The studio head leaving has been given as a reason for Tango being shuttered. Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, 'You've Been Tango'd'.

Honestly, looking at Microsoft's current strategy, I don't see any sort of future for Ninja Theory. Their games rarely (never?) seem to sell particularly well. I think they'll just get Hellblade 2 out the door, give it a couple months for post-launch support and then close down the studio.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Just finished Halo 2 and 3 on the Halo MCC. Amazing games with set pieces in campaign that Infinite does lack, though Infinite does have better gameplay I think.

Going to start Jedi Survivor soon now

 

[Bebe]

Absolutely it sells better without gamepass, of course it does. But with gamepass it can contribute to sustained revenue there and MS can point to the number of people who played etc. My point was more that I don't understand how gamepass is seen as the problem. Without it, I don't see how those studios fates differ. But more importantly, how many Series X/S would be out there at all without gamepass.

It might not be enough to get the hardware sales close to Playstation, but without it - where would Xbox be?

I understand lack of growth in gamepass will have contributed to pressure to cut costs. But the alternative wouldn't have sustained these studios.

Fair, I think this gets us into a larger question of whether the gamepass strategy is advisable at all, and most of those arguments have been made repeatedly in this thread and all across the internet. It's all very sad because it feels very much as though MS are still paying the price for the disastrous Xbox One strategy (all in on Kinect, barely any exclusives, the power deficit compared to PS4).

I think it's worth asking how many more Series consoles would be out there if, instead of gamepass, Xbox's focus had been on exclusive software. Despite all the commentary to the contrary, that's imo the common denominator between Sony and Nintendo's stability, and Xbox's lack thereof.

Honestly, looking at Microsoft's current strategy, I don't see any sort of future for Ninja Theory. Their games rarely (never?) seem to sell particularly well. I think they'll just get Hellblade 2 out the door, give it a couple months for post-launch support and then close down the studio.

They're absolutely fecked imo. If Starfield didn't move the needle, Hellblade isn't likely to. This despite the first Hellblade being apparently made on a budget of about $10 million and selling over a million copies (I assume therefore it was quite profitable), ie the exact kind of game MS says they need.