Ah so thats when the count starts.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Ah so thats when the count starts.
Thanks for this excellent post, finally a very comprehensive view and one I fully agree. We will see in May where we stand, but the young team is progressing, and should be able to show a better performance over 38 games compared to last season.
The Norwegian novice will stay in his position even if he loses tomorrow. He is the worst manager in the club's history yes, but we have a far worse board, even more than him.
When all is said and done, his managerial career will probably be insignificant compared to those two. If things don't go well this season then he'll probably ruin his reputation with even our supporters too.
Insignificant and bad reputation is not the same as worst ever.
Worst ever what? LVG, who i disliked a lot, had a worse team than Ole and won a cup, in his defence.
If Ole fails to win a cup, and just gets top 4 once in 2 full seasons, he'd be worse than LVG.
Of course this season is yet to be played out so we can't say anything yet really.
“Worst manager in the club’s history”
However much anyone dislikes the man, or how bad they think we are (about the third best team in England), that is an objectively wrong statement.
whether or not he’s worse than Moyes or Vangle is a subjective matter I guess. I think he’s better than both, and I even think he’s been better for the club than Mourinho. Stats and trophies aside. He’ll not leave a mess behind, and has moved the club light years in the right direction in many, many ways. Whether or not he is the right man, or will win anything at all with us is not my point really. He is just not the worst manager in the club’s history, and I rate his tenure a lot more than any of the other guys since Sir Alex.
I don't think Ole will ever be as bad as Moyes. Certainly agree with you on that front, he's done a fair bit of good with the club. It's just not sufficient at this stage is all.
It's absolute cringe at this stage
Mental stuff
This is a manager who has had two years at the helm, has been sufficiently backed in the transfer market and has a decade of managerial experience. If this man was not an ex-Utd player, it would be unanimous that we must change managers.
I hate this notion that weve just got to deal with it for the rest of the season. Teams threatened with relegation act quickly and make a decision to salvage the situation. They don’t just sit there and go “well boys we may as well just accept we’re shit and go down”... and to be honest, getting relegated and not getting Champions League are similar in that there’s a huge financial incentive, especially with COVID-19 around.... not to mention the initial bummer of next season where you’re in the Championship or in our case the Europa League or even no Europe.
I also hate that OGS is deemed ’novice’, ‘learning on the job’ by some people. He has been managing as long as Guardiola has. When you look at his managerial CV, you see Molde which is a pretty humble beginning and that’s fine as you’ve got to start somewhere, then you see Cardiff as a PL team which is a logical step up. Cardiff get relegated but at the time you think its expected of a promoted team to come back down again anyway, especially when Cardiff aren’t the biggest.... Then for me this is where it goes a bit downhill. Cardiff in Championship and barely lasts a month there... maybe Cardiff isn’t the right fit... then he goes back to Molde. Either OGS prefers the comfort of being a humble manager for his local club after tasting the real deal football management level, or he just isn’t good enough in clubs eyes. Surely he’d have had some interest after Cardiff? Or maybe he just didn’t want to pursue a serious management career and liked to stay in that small corner of the world of Molde and the Norwegian league, which is all fine and well.
I just don’t think he has the exact mentality to be a top level manager for a massive club. I‘m not a telepath and I don’t know him personally but I can go off his CV, and see a manager who seemed content being the manager of his local team, tried to have a go at the big time, failed then went back home, possibly because he liked being home more and that it wasnt high pressure environment etc... then he got a call from absolutely nowhere from Ed Woodward two years ago and who’d turn down that managerial role with all those players at your disposal? Not to mention it’s the other ‘home’ as well.
I hate this notion that weve just got to deal with it for the rest of the season. Teams threatened with relegation act quickly and make a decision to salvage the situation. They don’t just sit there and go “well boys we may as well just accept we’re shit and go down”... and to be honest, getting relegated and not getting Champions League are similar in that there’s a huge financial incentive, especially with COVID-19 around.... not to mention the initial bummer of next season where you’re in the Championship or in our case the Europa League or even no Europe.
I also hate that OGS is deemed ’novice’, ‘learning on the job’ by some people. He has been managing as long as Guardiola has. When you look at his managerial CV, you see Molde which is a pretty humble beginning and that’s fine as you’ve got to start somewhere, then you see Cardiff as a PL team which is a logical step up. Cardiff get relegated but at the time you think its expected of a promoted team to come back down again anyway, especially when Cardiff aren’t the biggest.... Then for me this is where it goes a bit downhill. Cardiff in Championship and barely lasts a month there... maybe Cardiff isn’t the right fit... then he goes back to Molde. Either OGS prefers the comfort of being a humble manager for his local club after tasting the real deal football management level, or he just isn’t good enough in clubs eyes. Surely he’d have had some interest after Cardiff? Or maybe he just didn’t want to pursue a serious management career and liked to stay in that small corner of the world of Molde and the Norwegian league, which is all fine and well.
I just don’t think he has the exact mentality to be a top level manager for a massive club. I‘m not a telepath and I don’t know him personally but I can go off his CV, and see a manager who seemed content being the manager of his local team, tried to have a go at the big time, failed then went back home, possibly because he liked being home more and that it wasnt high pressure environment etc... then he got a call from absolutely nowhere from Ed Woodward two years ago and who’d turn down that managerial role with all those players at your disposal? Not to mention it’s the other ‘home’ as well.
Yeah I get what you're saying. I think Moyes bit the dust so early because we had just won the league, and he just seemed woefully out of depth. You have to wonder just where on the list Moyes was, there were rumours SAF also approached Ancelotti, Klopp and Pep.
LVG and Mourinho, I think it was a mixture of some truly woeful football, player discontent, and media pressure that caused us to act, and missing out on top 4. I think in some ways Ole doesn't get as much heat from the media cause he's a likeable guy, an ex player and all that. I think the lack of fans have been a help too, we're not talking about booing, or unease in the atmosphere. Imagine that 6-1 game with a full OT.
I think the most important factor that will buy him time is that sentimentality. Everyone wants it to work out for Ole, it would mean so much more than it would than it did under Mourinho for example. I think the board also want to be seen as adopting a different approach now, and have learnt their lesson from the sacking of LVG after the FA Cup victory and how that looked.
The problem isn't that they seem to have a more measured approach, it's that I think the manager that they have adopted this approach for is wrong. I feel like everybody knows that the inevitable will happen and Ole will get sacked within the next year or so, but Woodward and co. are possibly playing the optics a little bit, when deep down they should know it's not really working.
I agree with you, there doesn't seem to be any real appetite to sack Ole. Whether that's right or not, we can't say. In football, the information assymetries between the fans and insiders is too great. We would need to know the mood in the club to full gauge that. I guess I'm just questioning the motivations behind backing Ole.
Yeah, that's a very valid assessment and you raise a lot of very good points. I'm more Ole out than in, but I feel like I dip a toe back in the 'Ole in' waters after every victory just because for the first time in so long, we're actually entertaining to watch. I don't mean to sound fickle, its moreso I'm just torn between wanting it to work, but sick of us bottling it when it matters most.
I agree with a lot of what you say, and to be honest, the only thing that is separating me at this moment is our view on Pochettino. I do think he is worth sacking Ole for, and I also feel like he's really got an eye on the job too. He wants the challenge, and I feel like he has the pedigree for it. I could be wrong, who knows? But if you're in charge of hiring for the manager job at United, who are you going to hire, Ole or Poch (if both were simultaneouslyavailable and your only options)? It's pretty clear. Of course there's going to be risk involved, that's unavoidable when the stakes are so high.
I think my overarching point is that we discuss the manager like we're waiting for the next Messiah to take the club on the right track again, but that approach is leaving too much to chance. We should be able to do a Chelsea with our resources, and compete almost year on year while not being wholly reliant on a manager to guide our direction.
Of course, if we go through a couple managers in the next few years, it's not ideal but maybe we're getting closer to the one thay will suit, and when that happens we have a Guardiola-City style relationship. Sacking Ole and hiring Pochettino shouldn't be this massive risk that causes us to restart all over. Barcelona seem to sack their manager every year, but you just know they'll be back challenging and a Eurpoean force long before us again. Same with Juventus, Munuch did it last season.
In short, we have two problems. We have an inept board, and a manager unqualified for the task at hand. Both are at fault for our failings, our manager for his lack of ability to coach the team, and our board with a completely senseless decision to put all our eggs in this one basket with Ole, who's previous job was Molde FC. Now, it feels like no matter what we do as a club going forward it could be the wrong decision.
We need more assistant managers, at least one for every 3 of our squad
I really hope it's not the case, and to be honest its probably the overly-cynical side of me even thinking it. Still, we've been made fools of time and again in the market and on the pitch, so you have to wonder is there a tiny element of saving face.
Good post. Totally agree.
Most top clubs seem to be able to change manager quite easily, without having to purge themselves and drop out of the top positions.
Dropping out of the top positions is more likely to happen in England than anywhere else. The genuine top clubs (in terms of resources) elsewhere could almost literally hire a clown to manage the team - and still finish in the top four.
That said, I agree with your basic point (as I take it): United should be able to change managers without having to overhaul the squad every time. Absolutely - yeah.
But we all know what that means. We need a new structure. We can't keep looking for a manager capable of doing what SAF did (which really is the only way our current "model" would possibly work).
Those who want to sack Ole NOW - here and now - and replace him, directly, with Nagelsmann should probably think about that once or twice more. Sacking Ole at the present time would make the United job more of a poisoned chalice than ever (it keeps going from depth to depth).
Not implausibly, the players would be against it (no indication beyond known BS sources that Ole has lost the players) - for one thing. So, yeah - let's hire a manager who's younger than Cavani - and has worked with a DOF all his career - to take the Titanic's helm and expect him to do well...because he "knows tactics". Sure - good luck with that.
Let's be real here. What striker have they purchased since RVP? Cavani may be good and so might Zlatan but they weren't young or even mid-aged players.
Maybe my memory is short but I'd say Mata, Pogba and Mcguire are there that came with a high price tag and maybe you can put Bruno in that although he was cheaper than Pogba. Pogba would have been great if he wasn't an ass.
Having said that, switching the backline formation is not something I agree with and I hope he starts doing it.
Maybe my memory is short but I'd say Mata, Pogba and Mcguire are there that came with a high price tag and maybe you can put Bruno in that although he was cheaper than Pogba. Pogba would have been great if he wasn't an ass.
Having said that, switching the backline formation is not something I agree with and I hope he starts doing it.
Or not change the manager and accept being mediocre for the rest of our lives with a shitty manager.
Or change the structure first. And then try to bring in the right manager.
You'll be calling the next manager "shitty" too when it turns out he isn't a magician.
The structure isn't ever changing though, is it? The Glazers are happy as long as we bring in money, Ed Woodwards not going anywhere, the one thing we can change is the manager, but because The Glazers and Ed aren't going anywhere we should stick with a mediocre manager anyway?
Absolutely. But we've got to face facts.
His shortcomings are so obvious: We frequently begin games with no intensity, often have no cohesive plan - just contrast the way RB Leipzig press as a team constantly double or triple teaming Fernandes and Rashford vs our system where a player may take it upon himself to press or may not. We concede ridiculous chances to teams game after game. If Leipzig had a real finisher they could have been 4 goals up by half time. If West Ham had one they'd have been 5-0 up. Spurs actually did have a serious forward line and destroyed us. So what do you think will happen when we face Liverpool?
I also think Ole's done a decent job. He's restored dignity to the club, brought through some young talent and improved Rashford, Fred and a few others. He has instilled a certain doggedness but we are some way off. It's concerning that the same set of players have now totally bottled crucial cup games against Chelsea in the FA Cup final (under Jose) and
1.the FA Semis
2. EL Semis, and now
3. the group stages of the CL in under four months. It's just not good enough.
Ole is now two years into his job and can anyone say what our tactics are beyond "We're Man Yanaited and we can always win?" Of course we will always find a way to score or win against most teams because (I know a lot of posters don't rate them but) our players are outrageously talented but in the biggest games - when it really matters, when it comes down to fine margins, we are probably always going to fall short.
When is this structure changing? And you're right we do need a magician and the only way to get that is trial and error until we find one. Ole most certainly isn't
We support our managers and players during the game. It would be stupid not to because the whole point of going to the game is to support and encourage the team. Criticism of players and coaches at the game would be counterproductive.
The very few occasions I have seen fans inside the stadium not supportive was the booing at Fellaini. discussions away from the stadium are different.
Agree, why bother changing the manager when the structure is rotten? feck why even bother changing players? well be calling them shitty too, we should settle for what we have untill the structure is changed.
Awful logic.
Another thing I find amusing is how some of the fans portray him to be a down to earth person with no ego. Well, if you think so, try to recall Ole's reaction to RvP's words regarding being all sunshine and rainbows after losing a game. Ole felt so butthurt afterwards that his reply was "...he took my number 20 and that is probably all he will take from me as well". First of all, Robin put on that number 20 shirt and singlehandedly led us to our last, 20th Prem title. Coming from a team managed by Sir Alex arch rival, doing this in SAF's last season is as iconic as it can be. Secondly, Robin just voiced his opinion as a footballer and to be fair he was a level or two above Ole as a player, while also having been managed by such legendary managers as LvG, Wenger, SAF etc. I am sure that Ole is not very good at taking some opposite views. If you want to act a tad arrogant, you have to have some solid grounds to do so. So far, he is basically a nobody in managers' world, a lucky guy who has won a lottery despite being quite a meh manager before that magical day.
You think it's realistic to somehow luck out on a manager who is so brilliant that his brilliance will negate the structure?
That's what we're talking about - isn't it? And his brilliance would have to reach well beyond "patterns of play".
Because if nothing changes at United, the next man would have to work without a DOF too - he would have to work with Ed Woodward much like Ole is at the moment. If he's hired along the same lines as Ole and his predecessors were - he too will be tasked with building (or re-building) the squad. Nobody else will have that responsibility. There's nobody at United who will tell the next man who he needs to keep and who he can let go, based on a long-term strategy with regard to recruitment and playing style.
It's not about "Ole in" or "Ole out". I'm not "Ole in". I never advocated for him to get this job on a permanent basis. Quite to the contrary - I was very skeptical when he went from being a decent interim to becoming another attempt to, basically, replace Fergie.
What United should have done, after Mourinho had to go (and he had to go) was precisely what was "briefed" at the time: hire an interim and work on bringing in a DOF. Then take it from there.
It never happened, because Ed Woodward jumped the gun.
To me, those who now yell "Ole out!" (and nevermind the consequences) are basically saying that we might as well try another shot in the dark, because the current shot in the dark isn't going to win the league. I don't share that sentiment - I think it's feckin' ridiculous, frankly. It's based on nothing but precisely what the "Outers" accuse the "Inners" of - namely sentiment.
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His eyes and face are moving all over the place like a child that is lying. He doesn't believe what he says.
. I'd advice not to take Ole's pressers to heart. They don't do anything but portray his lack of charisma. Yes it may not really be important but I don't know how a United fan that has seen Ferguson in all his glory is comfortable with a United manager lacking so much charismaI am not upset. For me it's more of the comedic value. Genuinely looks like a deer in headlights.
what's the solution then? We're not hiring a DoF, it's simply not happening on Woodwards watch.
I genuinely & sincerely don't know what to expect from Utd this weekend but i can't help but sense we will lose & he will be out of a job by early next week. What a mess!!
I'd like a poll on a different - and, in my opinion, much more pertinent - question:
"Why was Ole hired in the first place?"
And, no - this has nothing to do with PE teachers or the Norwegian league.
The exact same question could be asked with regard to all of Ole's predecessors. What was the thinking behind the appointment?
And - who do you think is going to make the call on the next appointment, as things stand?
"Why was Ole hired in the first place?"
And, no - this has nothing to do with PE teachers or the Norwegian league.
The exact same question could be asked with regard to all of Ole's predecessors. What was the thinking behind the appointment?
And - who do you think is going to make the call on the next appointment, as things stand?
Fully agree with this observation. He is just bluffing, but I doubt any of those reporters believe in what he is saying. Damage limitation phase is well on.
If he wasn't good enough for Cardiff how can he be good enough for us?
He wasn't all that good at Molde either.
He won back-to-back league titles in 2011 and 2012 during his first spell with Molde then left to take charge of Cardiff in January 2014
and got them relegated the from the Premier League, he lasted just eight months before being sacked. Molde, meanwhile, won a league title without him.
He returned to Molde in October 2015, but only managed to guide his side to sixth and two second-placed finishes before leaving again for England
That is his 10 year career as a football manager. And some fans think we should give him more time.
He wasn't all that good at Molde either.
He won back-to-back league titles in 2011 and 2012 during his first spell with Molde then left to take charge of Cardiff in January 2014
and got them relegated the from the Premier League, he lasted just eight months before being sacked. Molde, meanwhile, won a league title without him.
He returned to Molde in October 2015, but only managed to guide his side to sixth and two second-placed finishes before leaving again for England
That is his 10 year career as a football manager. And some fans think we should give him more time.
I want the structure to change - I want United to make fundamental changes to how we operate as a football club.
I want us to have a long-term strategy with regard to player recruitment and playing style. And I want someone other than the manager to be ultimately responsible for that strategy.
I want the manager to have less influence over matters that have an impact beyond the current season and the present playing staff.
That isn't a "solution" - but in my opinion it's a necessary first step.
ETA And if your response is "well, that isn't happening on Woodward's watch", my answer is:
Alright, then - we're fecked until it's no longer Woodward's watch.
But I won't be yelling about the manager - my guess is that (as I replied to the poster above) the next one will be deemed "shitty" too soon enough once it becomes apparent that he isn't able to deliver the big prizes either.
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But by all accounts we fecked over Mourinho after season 2, in order to do just that. Give the manager a veto only, give the scouts and the others on the transfer board a veto and thus much more power over transfers, as they are here long-term.
Playing style... well, we seem to have no clue as a club on that. We've gone from "cross the fecker, cross it, cross it now, cross it again man!" to "pass pass pass snore, pass pass snore", to Joseball, to "we want individuals to express themselves". So yeah, something should be done there.
Point well taken, but we definitely need to sort out our defense. With Bruno pulling the strings, I'm confident we can score goals.
Can @Borys or any of our stats gurus give us more insight into Allegri's record in terms of goal scored? It's my perception (possibly quite erroneous) that Serie A is a low-scoring league. What I'd be curious about is whether Juve was really all that defensive relative to the rest of the league. Being a perennial league winner, I'm sure Juve has nice net goals stats, but an in depth analysis would be helpful here.
I wouldn't mind us winning a bunch of games 2-0 and 1-0 rather than seeing us scrape out a few wins after being down 2-0 but also ending up with a lot of disappointing 1-1 draws and some embarrassing defeats such as Palace and Arsenal. Spurs was just a match the spiraled out of control.
A steady hand is needed and I'm not sure Pocchettino is the man for the job. Allegri, whatever else one may say about his tactics, is a steady hand who has a full trophy cabinet.
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