I get the same feeling. Other teams we come up against in these close ties are always more streetwise than us I feel. We naively get baited by them every time it seems. We used to laugh about Arsene Wengers Arsenal celebrating the top 4 trophy, but we'll do well to even match that I think. It's sad to see what we've become.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Don't do it to yourself, save yourself the hassle. We will bottle the Leipzig game next week too. We don't know how to handle close ties where teams are out to take advantage of any little thing.
A seriously poor review of what I said. Re-fresh your mind to when Pep took over, year one he just about finished 4 and had a squad of aging stars whos impact was declining game on game. Yes, Silva and Augero survived, but a re-build was needed so he dipped into the market and spent millions on players. Sitting here discussing how much he spent and how is irrelevant, he went on to smash the points record, goals scored record in the next two season and raised the bar in the league. He totally refreshed that team with a style of football, England was not used to. His latest challenge is to re-build again as Liverpool and Klopp added to the bar. This take me to the point of Klopp, yes he took slightly longer to demonstrate success (trophies) but by his 3rd year, he had taken City to the wire and recorded the highest 2nd place finish in the premier league (Ole is in his 3rd year now). In the previous years, he style of play was in transition - he joined Liverpool with the ambition to play high intensity football for 90 minutes, tiring the opponent and hitting them hard on the break for 6. His style was evident from day one and even with players such as Dossana, Clyne etc. Now if you look back at Liverpool now and in May 2016, the style of play is very similar, Klopp has his way of playing and that stuck. He brought players who were good enough to play his system, exactly they way he wanted to and he never sat up all night worrying about how he must adjust to the opposition - it feels like Ole does this rather than focus on Uniteds identity.
I saw what Chelsea have done over the summer but let's straighten things out, what Lampard was doing from the day he took over was building a team ethos built on the way he likes to play. He couldnt spend any money on players to fix a team that lost there best player so instead focussed on developing youth, squad mentality, drive, determination and attacking spirit. He finished 4th and got to the FA Cup final, beating United in the Semi. Lampard has used the blue print from his first season to take Chelsea to the next level, yes he spent some money on players, but like for like, it is probably a similar investment to what Ole has spent too. Let's take it a few months into the season, Chelsea have a strong defence, scoring goals for fun and the players look happy. They should have beaten Spurs had Jose not brought his bus to the game. He may not win a trophy this season, but his 3rd campaign is really looking fruitful if he manages to build on what he has done.
I really wont go into detail on Spurs, but to summarise, Jose struggled when he first took over. He then spent 50ish million in the summer window and carried on his good form from the back end of last season. Yes his style of play is dull, that is a separate discussion, but his philosophy is clear - win at all costs, minimise any risk by making the defence a rock.
Translate the above to Ole - he took over and won 10 games on the bounce until March time. Then from March 2019 to Feb 2019, results were really inconsistent, no style of play was formed, he kept changing formation. Then we got a few on the bounce before COVID. We then come back after lockdown and he takes the league by storm by getting 5 or 6 victories on the bounce and then the last 2 or 3 games, you see the same cracks starting to appear. He does not get the player he wants (Sancho) but get's a brilliant DVB and Cavani in the window. he starts the season tinkering his formation, we scraped a victory at Brighton, smashed by Spurs, drew at home to Chelsea, lost at home to Arsenal and Palace, and beat Newcastle (we were awful until 80th min but we score 3 goals on the break from the 86th min). I cannot express enough how inconsistent he is and that is expressed in tactics, identity, philosophy, results, body language, press conference speaking's etc.
I apologise for the essay, but honestly, if you are going to provide an opinion on my post, don't provide lazy unjustified responses without looking at both qualitative and quantitative facts.
Well the irony here is that Ole the player buries both Cavani and Martials chances 999 out of 1000 times to see us through.
So will you praise Ole if we actually get the job done at Leipzig?
Yes of course I will give him his dues if we play a smart match and progress.
Your optimism is, as ever, inspiring.
Why's that? Leipzig were very good vs. us, that 5-0 was a freak result that didn't reflect the match.
That's why it's strange.
But I feel like when the pressure is ridiculously on our true color show off and we become prime Barcelona.
If I had something to be optimistic about then I would be. All i've seen under Ole, is that we don't have the nous to handle these matches. Why wouldn't I expect the trend to continue?
Quite the opposite for me. I think we turn prime Barcelona when we've been written offThat's why it's strange.
But I feel like when the pressure is ridiculously on our true color show off and we become prime Barcelona.
I hope we do. The match will depend on our mentality going into it.That's why it's strange.
But I feel like when the pressure is ridiculously on our true color show off and we become prime Barcelona.
I think it's the opposite. Ole performs better as the underdog, that's usually with the pressure off no? When the onus is on us to perform and dominate, I think that's when he struggles the most (See Istanbul).
I believe there will be more pressure on us than Leipzig after the dominant position we was in after the first 2 matches, so I'm not confident he will be able to handle it at all.
Cavani’s chance? Like feck he does 999 out of 1000 @Tom Cato.
Ole was a class finisher but that wasn’t an easy chance by any stretch. Let’s not now start making out like Ole never missed chances ffs.
United 4 - 3 Madrid jumps to mind, remember Ole missing an absolute sitter of a header and a one-on-one, in one game.
I swear Ole turns more and more into Jesus every passing week here, now we're slagging off World Class strikers to make it almost sound as though they aren't fit to laces Ole's boots.
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Every time everyone expects us to lose and Ole to get sacked we turn to prime Barca. I think it's actually the opposite in games we're expected to win comfortably without much problems, they are the ones we shite the bed in.
I think the players will be up for it and they'll surprise us all. Fingers crossed, of course.
Yeah all of that's definitely true. Okay we're arguing the same thing.
You originally meant when the pressure in his job is on, he surprises us, whereas I was arguing when the pressure is on him and the team to perform, that's when he struggles the most.
Yeah all of that's definitely true. Okay we're arguing the same thing.
You originally meant when the pressure in his job is on, he surprises us, whereas I was arguing when the pressure is on him and the team to perform, that's when he struggles the most.
Yeah I guess it'll all depend on how we look at this match. It can work both ways, actually.
My biggest question is whether the media will allow him to be in his comfortable state as underdogs after the 5-0. I don't think they will. After the position we was in, I think we will be under a ton of pressure next week to perform.Yeah I guess it'll all depend on how we look at this match. It can work both ways, actually.
Again, I don't want to be a downer, I hope we go there next week and smash them of course.
My biggest question is whether the media will allow him to be in his comfortable state as underdogs after the 5-0. I don't think they will. After the position we was in, I think we will be under a ton of pressure next week to perform.
Again, I don't want to be a downer, I hope we go there next week and smash them of course.
Yeah let's all hope it works well and we get past the group for the sake of us all. The season will be unbearable if the opposite happens.
Real Madrid won La Liga last year.
They haven't started this season as well as expected, but they were hardly rebuilding last year.So much disrespect towards basically every single team in Europe, this. Real Madrid is not elite. Borussia Dortmund is not elite. Leipzig are not elite.
Who's elite, then? Only Bayern München? Winning La Liga doesn't make you elite?!
No wonder some people think Ole is below average, if the bar is set at winning the treble. Winning a quadruple (!), or La Liga is considered average and/or "rebuilding".
Feckin'ell.
No need to apologise for the "essay", I actually enjoyed reading it - though I don't agree in full and this is where the difference in opinion needs to be respected. Apologies if my comment came across as rude.
I don't agree that changing formations, depending on the opponent, is wrong. Isn't this part of tactics? So if he doesn't change, he's tactically inept and if he does, he's scared of opponents? Let's not forget that some of these changes were the reason for our best games under Ole (against PSG, City, and others).
This is Ole's second full season in charge. I wouldn't call being hired mid-way in 2018/2019 as his first season as he was playing with Jose's team. You mentioned a very valid point about managers buying players that fit their style of play. Let's think of what Ole got this year and this is also where I don't agree with you. He needed a right winger with pace and goal scoring ability and he actually got 2 young players that may not be suitable to play now (they might turn out to be future messi's, who knows. But they are not for this season - he's played Pogba and Bruno as wingers at times during games due to lack of depth in that position). So how has he been backed, like Lampard, in the transfer window? VDB might eventually become an important player for us especially with Pogba's poor return and eminent departure. But what else? Cavani? I would be jumping with joy had we signed him 5-6 years ago. I hardly call signing a 33-year-old "rebuilding" (he'll do well when he plays, but he's 33, can't rely on him for a full season with all different competitions). That's not rebuilding.
Though I appreciate what you said about Pep especially about his style of play, I don't call that rebuilding. He had a good team that needed gradual improvements and he's done that. Players age and new signings are needed. Hardly a rebuild. Every manager has his style of play and it happens that Pep is one of the best managers in the world.
What has Ole done in his first full year? He finished 3rd behind 2 established teams, he reached the semi final of 3 competitions. Not bad for a manager who is struggling! Of course, this is not our ambition, we want to win all competitions, but with a thin, young squad that lacked depth, last year was a "success". Had we had a better bench, we'd probably have won a cup. I remember the last run of games were with exactly the same starting 11. Making substitutions was even difficult due to the lack of depth.
I, unlike you, see what Ole is trying to do. I think United today, as a team and squad harmony is at its best in 7 years. Though signings are still needed (and this is where the struggle is with the Glazers - don't want to get there), the team in general is good. I don't see a reason not to allow him to continue rebuilding. You spoke about the bad start to the season. Well, we have a game in hand, if we win it, we'll jump to 4th place, 2 points behind the league leaders. So after a terrible start, we are 2 points off Spurs who are having a dream start under Jose? OK, not bad. At least not something to sack the manager for! We're also on top of our group in the champions league (gutted we lost yesterday!).
I agree that inconsistency is the main issue. But I'll limit inconsistency to results and performances. Not body language, tactics, etc... This should be our ask of Ole, work towards more consistency. The "hate" Ole gets (and I'm not saying that came out from you - just talking in general here), is unjustifiable. Probably the media plays a role in influencing how fans react to losses, poor performances, Fred's red card (
), etc... Still feel he needs to be given more time to continue his rebuild with proper support from the board and owners.
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I agree with that, but the problem is we lack wide midfielders who really are a dying breed in this day and age. Rashford/Martial/Greeenwood lack the defensive accumen to be put in MF
Hindsight is 10/10 and if we score our chances at the start of 2nd half i dont think there would be any talk of team selection or tactics
Can't blame Ole for everything and I don't blame him for the loss in particular, though obviously he could have done better. Just like I don't blame Martial or Fred in particular. It's a team game. We have several individuals within it who can share the blame for it.
I'm not arguing that. I'm sure Fergie took Scholes off a few times when he got into one of his moods and already had a yellow (he had a tendency to get them early as well).
Thought this was pretty funny
What the hell is Ole doing looking all friendly with the PSG players around him
Mr Nice Guy
Yeah particularly Neymar who was the main instigator of the dark arts as usual
Ya. He should have two footed Neymar after the game. Because that's what top managers do
I am not wrong though, he is stupid.
Wish I had this level of snarky
Sorry for using insulting language. No need to retort. I have seen more football than wiki, but like most people here I base my views more on results and hearsay than watching all the games. I have watched a fair few of PSG under Tuchel, but results to tell me most of the story.
We both know I guess that average means the mean, right between the top and the bottom. Quite a few also use it like something purely negative, like ‘David Brooks is bang average’, meaning something like ‘I don’t like people saying anything positive about David Brooks’. If a team is ‘average’ that consistently, before and after a covid friendly programme (that United didn’t have - would they have won the Europa League if they had?) puts out wins against clubs like Real Madrid, Borussia Dortmund, RB Leipzig (I saw the 3-0 and was fairly impressed), while they butcher lesser teams that are not so small that other top teams necessarily butcher them, and I might throw in 5-1 and 4-2 (and a PK win in the league cup) against Lyon who were good enough to put to the sword Juventus, Man City and ironically, RB Leipzig - then it makes me wonder which teams qualify as top, and which teams are the bottom of your average claim. If everyone is having and of season, isn’t all that anymore, is just a farming team or ‘even lost to Man United, we are starting to run out of teams to be average behind. If Bayern is the top this year (who else?) and Liverpool number two, how many teams are included in your world, and where are PSG on the table? Because I would think, that if Bayern is top and PSG is average, the bottom must be something like Athletico Madrid, and United have not been higher than third division since Fergie left. Which would mean, if we now are able to lose unluckily once and win fairly once against PSG, we have been climbing the divisions at an impressive pace. Maybe the sky is the ceiling after all
Yes, every time, its been like that for years I feel. We are so naive and always lose those close ties. I also hate how cynical we are, don’t you? Winning most of the close ties against Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, PSG, RB Leipzig, it’s just that we are cynical and bait them because they are daring and a bit naive. It’s sad really. And we never beat the lesser teams that sit back, except from 80 % of those games for a year now, of course. I don’t know why that is.
That was a refreshing read.
Three semi final defeats last season say otherwise. After our position after GW2 in CL we've qualified by now haven't we? We got the one point needed in Istanbul & vs. Paris didn't we? We never choked yet again did we?
We are Manchester United and not some small club with a limited budget are we?
Three QF, last eight and qualifying round wins last season say the same. And how was that close tie away at Leicester deciding the CL spots, way back in July? It was like another year. And how did that game at Parc des Princes go again? After we beat Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea away. For every example you find of us choking as you say, there are even more examples of us coming through with chips down. Which is surprising, as we are a fairly young team, the last step normally takes some routine to make. Three SFs in the first season of a rebuild is a problem, not a mark of progress? You are way too impatient for a build up.
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