We have improved. Clearly not enough for some fans but plenty enough for many. There's a good chance that we would part ways with him if we finish lower than 4th this season, but it depends on the circumstances - as it should do.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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We have improved. Clearly not enough for some fans but plenty enough for many. There's a good chance that we would part ways with him if we finish lower than 4th this season, but it depends on the circumstances - as it should do.
Well I did say that I was excluding the first 3 games, and we were never out of it against Arsenal. Not saying we played well but it was a narrow(ish) 1 goal defeat. A goal which we gift wrapped them.
I really can't picture any realistic circumstance that would make not qualifying for top 4 acceptable. What type of circumstances are you talking about
Hopefully Everton was yet another turning point... I’m not holding my breath but while I do really want Ole to succeed the start to the season has been awful and another month or 2 of similar performances and he should get his p45 like any other manager. He’s here long enough now to have a team in his own image.
Spurs was our 4th game of the season.
We were well out of it against Arsenal. It was a godawful performance, we never looked like equalising, so was the Chelsea one actually, but at least we drew cause they were shite too. We have had more really bad performances than really good ones this season, and I include Brighton in the former category, Jesus that was crap.
It's just a weirdly selective defense to say that we "haven't been out of it" since the first three games. Well maybe to an extent but the performances and results were still shite, mostly, and trying to paint the first three games as a write off as people were doing because of fitness issues is also silly considering we haven't actually improved much since them, if at all.
Who knows. A football season is long and rarely runs smooth. Id prefer to assess things after its done and all of the facts are in. Im all about progress. If I felt that we were still progressing as a football team at the end of it, then he'd still have my support.
I know we struggle against the lower teams but if we win our game in hand we are 4 points behind Liverpool and Tottenham and 2 behind City if they win their game in hand too.
And thus the Ole boom bust cycle restarts. If we do this and if we do that, we'll be here. The problem is we won't do it because we're too inconsistent. No matter how far we are from our rivals, the truth is we have been largely shocking this season. I don't wanna sound like a broken record but I see the same old excuses being brought in as soon as we pick up a decent result after a series of shit ones. This thread is really going round in circles and should be locked because it's clear Ole is not going anywhere anytime soon.
I think waiting till the end of the season also depends on circumstances. For example, I don't think there's any point in waiting till the end of the season come December if we are still struggling to find consistency both in performances and results. Unless we have some important injuries we really shouldn't still be struggling to find consistency in both performances and results given the quality of our squad and the opponents we will be facing till December
Good post
All fair points and I agree we aren't ready to challenge for the title just yet. In the question about Oles capabilities I don't think there's a right or wrong answer just yet which is why this thread is going to keep going round in circles for the foreseeable future.
Many people (myself included) wonder if that consistency will ever arrive. I agree we have the best squad since SAF which is credit to Ole and I'm sure there's been plenty of people who want to jump on the Ole bandwagon who were sitting on the fence or against him continuing but once they're about to make the jump we revert back to playing amateur football. I think now there's been too many false dawns which are making some people more vocal in their opinions and Ole will have to go on a hell of a run for those minds to be changed back, which I can understand.
After Wednesdays game I was a little surprised by the amount of people who have been Ole in voice their concerns about his capabilities but of course that all changed after beating Everton so unfortunately we're going to keep going round in circles until A) Ole leaves the club B) We win the treble.
You do aware that there are some REALLY good teams out there ? Chelsea, Liverpool, City - all it takes is one more team having a really superb season and we could be out of the top 4 without really having a poor season in terms of performance.
This is about the third or fourth time I asked this with no answer given, but do we actually we know when this game will be played ?
I'm not really sure what this has got to do with our performances.
This has been a comment on our results and highlighting that we are a win on our game in hand away from not been that far away from the best teams in the league.
I'm not Ole In or Ole out but I am a United supporter who is happy to see that on the table so just bought it up.
No need for the negativity about cycles and all. If we lose and a gap starts to develop then the consequence of that will be seen but right now the gap is smaller than meets the eye. The whole league looks jam packed, the teams looks unorganised and it's closer to December than it is September.
Just saying.
To keep Ole this team should perform on a constant level and overperform more often then underperform. But thats is not the case. This team does overperform sometimes, perform often, but underperform fare too often for a top team. So Ole has to go, a win does not change anything. The win was just a normal performance!
How many times has this side put a run together?
No idea. Again I'm very 50/50 about Ole but ultimately I dont feel like the clubs in this league are very capable of going on a run either.
No
The teams we are competing with have a recent history of putting runs together over a season. If they can do it again this season is anyone's guess.
We have already given the other teams a head start.
The other thing is we always seem to be having these conversations. It's like ground hog day.
Once I think and that was when Bruno came in.
At the risk of offending a lot of Ole out posters, I think a lot of this comes down to people just lacking any patience. We are going to lose games from time to time, and we are going to be shit sometimes. Its just the way it goes. Its the agony of supporting a sports team.
Many people are never going to accept Ole. Most managers end up getting sacked eventually, so they will always take that point in time as vindication that they were right, even if its 5 years from now. This bonkers argument will never end.
So that would be a good excuse if we don't make top 4. "Well it's okay we didn't make top 4, Tottenham/Leceister had a really superb season". This team should be above the likes of Tottenham and Leceister. At least that's what I think. Maybe it's just me but I don't know how I will feel seeing this squad with the quality it has back in Europa next season. Are people really ready to defend that with things like it's because a certain team we should be above had a really superb season?
Winning The LC might be important for Ole. Winning a trophy will ease some of the pressure on him. It’s not the ultimate factor in judging his tenure, but wouldn’t hurt his cause.
I think we’ll win some of the games we are expected to lose, and lose some of the ones we are confident about winning. Leeds at home, for example, could be a case of Bielsa tactically outsmarting Ole. Although not if Leeds play like they did in their previous few games.
It would be increasingly difficult to defend a 5th place or lower finish, but again it depends on the circumstances. There's really no point talking about it until we see what happens, and if we completely shit the bed during this season then there's every chance he'd get fired.
I just wish we had a fanbase that could collectively get behind the team and the manager and not have to have this stupid civil war after every game.
I'm kind of getting the feeling that a lot of "Ole in" posters are simply hoping he's just given unlimited time and can continue to spend huge sums until he does win something big. And that would do for them. If we gave him 20 years and he keeps spending like he is then we'll probably win something, but that's isn't solving anything.
I also have a feeling Woodward would keep him even if we finish outside top 4 because he will look an absolute fool after Ole fails and he has to sack another manager. That's why he won't flinch and sack him, not because he thinks Solskjaer has been some low key Alex Ferguson hiding in Norway.
I also have a feeling Woodward would keep him even if we finish outside top 4 because he will look an absolute fool after Ole fails and he has to sack another manager. That's why he won't flinch and sack him, not because he thinks Solskjaer has been some low key Alex Ferguson hiding in Norway.
This. It really is depressing.
Patience is a virtue few possess I'm afraid and I do include myself in that. When Ole came in as interim I think very few people had a problem with that even though it was totally unexpected but stranger things have happened in football.
Everyone knows when Ole first came in he had a sensational first few months and even though at times the football wasn't that good he was breaking records in a postitve way but the second we had something to play for (top 4) the whole team from top to bottom buckled. From there it made me doubt the mentality if Ole was strong enough to take us back to the top and to be honest those doubts have never gone away. Just when I'm about to get on board we go through a really bad patch and it takes me right back to the start again.
Ole has done a great job in assembling a young talented squad and deserves the credit but I do doubt his credentials of bringing it all together. He's basically been learning on the job since day one and his inexperience is showing at so many levels and after 2 years in charge all those kinks should of been worked out by now or at least a good lot of them but we still seem to be suffering those lapses that were evident since he's became permanent.
To be honest I don't think too much is going to change in the near future. Our weak points are no secret. PSG and Leipzig were fantastic results but soon most teams will play the same way against us and its going to be very difficult to keep achieving these types of results because at the minute we don't seem capable of playing any other way.
All due respect but i dont think you've really thought any of that through
What are you basing this on. We have tried with experienced managers and successful managers, but the football has been awful at least we are exciting to watch now. I fully expect us to win a trophy this season with Ole (probably the league cup) do you want Poch who has won less than Ole
I cant and won't try to shoot down anybody that says they have some doubts about Ole. After all, he has yet to win a trophy here and we havent yet found that consistency. To have doubts is completely understandable.
What I dont agree with is that he should have had all of this necessarily figured out after two years. IMO that would be underestimating the size of the task that he has taken on.
For me he has already answered a lot of questions. He has spent well for the most part. He has held his own, and then some, against the elite coaches he's faced. He has a squad of players who look like they are willing to fight for him (most of them anyway). He's been a dignified manager. He doesnt make it about him like many of them do - its clear that he bleeds United and will do anything for this club. That might not mean much for some but it means something to me.
What he now needs to do is to find a way to get consistency out of this team. If he does that then he could end up lasting a decade here, and we will be successful.
What do you define as consistency though?
If we finish top 4 again in a scrap, that's not really progress from last season despite having a better team(and likely less injury woes).
No manager has lasted a decade in a very long time. We should stop pinning or hoping for that.
I am glad and one positive thing with Ole...so far. He is it so stubborn to get stuck on Pogba - Matic cm partnership.
Evaluation of Ole and the manager decisions. Against Palace lost and Brighton 3-2 victory away. Who did Ole started with? A covid unfit Pogba. Plus James and Mensah on the right side. Then Ole was asking for trouble and lost with that line up. Line up to fail. McTom couldn’t covered the midfield him alone.
Then in the next game. Ole switch McTom for Matic. With still a unfit Pogba. End up with a lucky win in the last seconds.
And in the last. He had change back to the Fred and McTom partnership. Not the most skillful duo. But those two are running theirs socks off.
I have suggested those two for long time.
But the line can still improve. A consistent clearly good RW is a solution. Then Ole get to knows when he has to use Rashford as CF and when to use Rashford as LW.
Same as Martial. When to use him as a CF or LW.
Because Rashford is not suit to plas as LW against parking bus and a tight defend. Against those tight defend. You have to use Martial one on one skill as LW. The best dribbler and one on one skill player. Use them on the left wing to beat players. Go down to the line and serve a 45 ankle pass to the CF or go in and curl it.
Thats why i am 100 sure United and Ole can get more out of Martial and Rashford. If you know when and how. To use the most efficient. Don’t waste Rashford CF ability as LW. Same as Auba for Arsenal as LW.
So beside RW + Mc Tom and Fred + Rashford and Martial when and how. Are the intern solutions United and Ole can improve. He had change one and use one of this. Which has keep him away from the sacking path.
And in the end. No top guts = no glory. McTom & Fred has the top guts + adding with Bruno top guts and the rest. Rise the to winning matches and glory.
And never change thing if it is not broken. Never change a winning team.
He gets to find his best starting XI as soon as possible. Rotate where it will not make so big difference.
But like the start of this post.
I am glad he has change back to McTom and Fred. But against team like Burnley. He might can change one of Fred/McTom for VDB or Pogba. To open up tight defend. Midfield to Burnley are so weak. In with DVB or Pogba will not weak United defend. You get to analyze your opposition weakness and strength before the match too.
So again. With McTom and Fred. Ole is surviving and on the surviving path. Might not to late to get top 4 this season. He will get sack. If he puts some of the sack ingredients and factors, that will lead to the sacking path.
Beside if Ole has ran out of luck and the fate is....your time is up....as a United manager, king or president.
Poor decisions are some important factors. But we all can underestimate the invisible factor luck and players poor decisions.
Mine internal solutions are on papers and theory. But in practice, there are more others factors and ingredients. Short sentence: In theory everything is perfect, but in practice its a lot different. You never know. One of the big reason is. The invisible factor = bank of luck. How much does Ole has left. If you are running out of luck. Then you are done. No matter how hard you try. So only time will tell. But Ole has change the visible factors. One of those are McTom and Fred.
In everything we are doing. Lay down our ego and believe in the truth.
The truth is = many puzzles/factors will lead to the bigger picture = success.
Instead and contra the truth = Our ego = I am the main reason behind my and the team success. And push and hide others important factors. Our ego = I, I, I = the team success.
The truth = more we and many factors and reasons.
So beside decisions. Handle ours ego. Ours worst enemy. Stubbornness. Will let us down. Ole changed with duo that’s is not working in CM. Ability of reflection, acceptance and willing to change. Are crucial to survive. Not only with football. Basic surviving factors. Special the mentality factors.
And I don’t know Ole as person. Only time will tell. How long he will stay here. But this is to future managers and everyone who is reading this. If you think you are the only main reason, in a team sport world. Then soon or later you will hit the wall and reality. Time for reflection.
Evaluation of Ole and the manager decisions. Against Palace lost and Brighton 3-2 victory away. Who did Ole started with? A covid unfit Pogba. Plus James and Mensah on the right side. Then Ole was asking for trouble and lost with that line up. Line up to fail. McTom couldn’t covered the midfield him alone.
Then in the next game. Ole switch McTom for Matic. With still a unfit Pogba. End up with a lucky win in the last seconds.
And in the last. He had change back to the Fred and McTom partnership. Not the most skillful duo. But those two are running theirs socks off.
I have suggested those two for long time.
But the line can still improve. A consistent clearly good RW is a solution. Then Ole get to knows when he has to use Rashford as CF and when to use Rashford as LW.
Same as Martial. When to use him as a CF or LW.
Because Rashford is not suit to plas as LW against parking bus and a tight defend. Against those tight defend. You have to use Martial one on one skill as LW. The best dribbler and one on one skill player. Use them on the left wing to beat players. Go down to the line and serve a 45 ankle pass to the CF or go in and curl it.
Thats why i am 100 sure United and Ole can get more out of Martial and Rashford. If you know when and how. To use the most efficient. Don’t waste Rashford CF ability as LW. Same as Auba for Arsenal as LW.
So beside RW + Mc Tom and Fred + Rashford and Martial when and how. Are the intern solutions United and Ole can improve. He had change one and use one of this. Which has keep him away from the sacking path.
And in the end. No top guts = no glory. McTom & Fred has the top guts + adding with Bruno top guts and the rest. Rise the to winning matches and glory.
And never change thing if it is not broken. Never change a winning team.
He gets to find his best starting XI as soon as possible. Rotate where it will not make so big difference.
But like the start of this post.
I am glad he has change back to McTom and Fred. But against team like Burnley. He might can change one of Fred/McTom for VDB or Pogba. To open up tight defend. Midfield to Burnley are so weak. In with DVB or Pogba will not weak United defend. You get to analyze your opposition weakness and strength before the match too.
So again. With McTom and Fred. Ole is surviving and on the surviving path. Might not to late to get top 4 this season. He will get sack. If he puts some of the sack ingredients and factors, that will lead to the sacking path.
Beside if Ole has ran out of luck and the fate is....your time is up....as a United manager, king or president.
Poor decisions are some important factors. But we all can underestimate the invisible factor luck and players poor decisions.
Mine internal solutions are on papers and theory. But in practice, there are more others factors and ingredients. Short sentence: In theory everything is perfect, but in practice its a lot different. You never know. One of the big reason is. The invisible factor = bank of luck. How much does Ole has left. If you are running out of luck. Then you are done. No matter how hard you try. So only time will tell. But Ole has change the visible factors. One of those are McTom and Fred.
In everything we are doing. Lay down our ego and believe in the truth.
The truth is = many puzzles/factors will lead to the bigger picture = success.
Instead and contra the truth = Our ego = I am the main reason behind my and the team success. And push and hide others important factors. Our ego = I, I, I = the team success.
The truth = more we and many factors and reasons.
So beside decisions. Handle ours ego. Ours worst enemy. Stubbornness. Will let us down. Ole changed with duo that’s is not working in CM. Ability of reflection, acceptance and willing to change. Are crucial to survive. Not only with football. Basic surviving factors. Special the mentality factors.
And I don’t know Ole as person. Only time will tell. How long he will stay here. But this is to future managers and everyone who is reading this. If you think you are the only main reason, in a team sport world. Then soon or later you will hit the wall and reality. Time for reflection.
My point is this - those days when a team is guaranteed top-4 in the P.L - they are over. There are too many good sides - Leicester, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, United....to name some.
At least 2 extremely good sides wont reach top-4 (and I am not even counting Arsenal). Those days under Ferguson when it was a just a case of beating Chelsea or Arsenal and the title was yours - those days are over. I look at the fixture list - and I see maybe 10 games I consider fairly easy, while 10 years ago - it was rather the opposite - 10 games where I didnt consider us huge favourites. Of course we should be up there, but this strict - if we dont reach top-4 the manager should be sacked, must end. We will get better - but yes there will be setbacks along the way. But if we end up 5th - should we fire the manager and start over again ? Is that really desireable ?
We beat Everton and it could have gone any way as they hit the post too. We will beat West Brom and I mean if we do not beat them then no point in discussing anything. But we are not playing well at all. We play poorly most of the time. We are still not sure we can qualify out of our group in the CL.
Below 4th and he should be let go, barring an incredible number of the first team going down hurt long term. Its a bare minimum requirement
Yes, because that's not indicating progression. That's regression.
5th is nowhere near acceptable.
I mean the fact that you're even considering other teams having a super season more than expecting us to qualify for top 4 and then accepting getting 5th is ok after getting 3rd the previous season shows you've dropped your standards a bit. We are a top 4 side so we should demand at least top 4. If we don't achieve that then you look at the circumstances like a poster said but I don't agree with the circumstance that if a Leceister has a really good season then it's ok we didn't get top 4
Consistency in our approach to every game. I dont mean tactically, I mean mentally. We are on the cusp of being a really good team, but we are still in that 'which United will turn up today' phase.
As far as top 4 is concerned, it is always going to be a scrap. You might as well get comfortable with that now. Its going to be tough for any team to put the necessary winning run together that would be required in order to pull clear of the pack, so its highly likely it goes down to the last couple of weeks of the season.
It wont necessarily mean that we haven't progressed. Or it might do. Let's wait and see and enjoy the ride.
I dont think anybody would claim that 5th is acceptable. It would be so disappointing to miss out on CL football, but.......it doesnt necessarily mean that you have to ditch your manager.
The strength in depth that this league contains now is unheard of. Look at this list;
Guardiola
Klopp
Mourinho
Ancelotti
Bielsa
Solskjaer
Arteta
Lampard
Rodgers
5 coaches that are without dispute legends of our generation, highly decorated and experienced, and another 4 strong coaches that all have really good players playing for them. That's half of the league, and 5 of those names won't make top 4 this season (obv Bielsa is not expected to but i could hardly leave him out of this list).
I know what people will say. We are Manchester United etc etc. I agree with them all. When you look at that though it does give you some idea of the size of the task facing all of these managers.
People talking about top 4, meanwhile I strongly believe if we don't win anything or at least didn't reach one final this season, I'll find it really hard to support keeping on with the Ole project for one more season. He had 1.5 years so far, and we have been trophyless for 3 seasons in a row. This season he should deliver a trophy for us no matter what.
As for top 4 it's not an achievement with our current squad quality. It's the bare minimum this season. Trophies are the next step.
As for top 4 it's not an achievement with our current squad quality. It's the bare minimum this season. Trophies are the next step.
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