Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?

  • Sack Ole & appoint new coach ASAP

  • Keep Ole & back him to finish rebuild


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What are you on about? Very few were saying Fred was an important player this time last year (first half of season) and certainly not before the season started. Greenwood wasn't ready this time last year either, he's barely ready to be a regular now.
Fred wasn't used initially, but he did quickly become the breakthrough player and one of our most consistent performers in that role. I didn't suggest he was a starter 5 games in, I'm taking over the course or the entire season. So when you suggest Fred didn't have the impact on us last year as he did this season, I call bullshit. He had 29 Premier League appearances last season and actually only went missing when Bruno arrived and we tested Bruno-Pogba-Matic in midfield.

Moreover Greenwood's point is exactly what I'm proving. Ole points to Greenwood as a part reason for not needing to get a striker, and then goes on to struggle when Rashford/Martial suffer an injury. This is feck all to do with bad luck and everything to do with bad planning. He knew Greenwood wasn't ready but still name dropped him in multiple pre season conferences.

Back to my point, he had enough quality last year to do better than 66 points. He has more now than to get shat on by Palace, Brighton, 6 to Spurs, Arsenal, and some random Turkish team. This is not good enough by any stretch.
 
But this is the problem everything you've noted above is the crux of what every competitive team will go through. It sounds like excuses more so than context. Because a player ends up injured what's the summation ? We write off the season because player X was injured. If this was the case many underperforming coaches would be overstaying their welcome. Every single manager who has underperformed will have an excuse to draw from out of all the aspects mentioned.

Points is a very good method of assessment, if a team finishes on 70+ points its usually an indication of them having a decent foundation of consistency. A team finishing in 60's would indicate a failure to win an average of 22 games out of 38 (in most cases top 6 form). Any teams finishing on 80-100 + is easily discerned that they are typically the best amoungst competitors.

Let's just agree to disagree then. Where you choose to label these situations as excuses I see it differently. They are real factors that can and do affect a clubs season.

I'm not denying that managers often lose their jobs as a result of these factors though. Luck plays a part in all aspects of life. I just find that way of judging progress to be too one dimensional and quite frankly its something I've never really seen football fans use until the roulette wheel of 'what can i use to kick Ole with today' came into existence.
 
Fred wasn't used initially, but he did quickly become the breakthrough player and one of our most consistent performers in that role. I didn't suggest he was a starter 5 games in, I'm taking over the course or the entire season. So when you suggest Fred didn't have the impact on us last year as he did this season, I call bullshit. He had 29 Premier League appearances last season and actually only went missing when Bruno arrived and we tested Bruno-Pogba-Matic in midfield.

Moreover Greenwood's point is exactly what I'm proving. Ole points to Greenwood as a part reason for not needing to get a striker, and then goes on to struggle when Rashford/Martial suffer an injury. This is feck all to do with bad luck and everything to do with bad planning. He knew Greenwood wasn't ready but still name dropped him in multiple pre season conferences.

Back to my point, he had enough quality last year to do better than 66 points. He has more now than to get shat on by Palace, Brighton, 6 to Spurs, Arsenal, and some random Turkish team. This is not good enough by any stretch.
I was talking about the first half of the season. The second half of the season we clearly had better available, including a more established Fred and McTominay. What we had in the first half was not good enough for 66 points.
 
I was talking about the first half of the season. The second half of the season we clearly had better available, including a more established Fred and McTominay. What we had in the first half was not good enough for 66 points.
Again, that's bullshit. Last season we started in August, by September he made 3 apps off the bench playing in more than half the game and in October he was a starter. He was well established for us by then, starting in every Premier league game from October to February. After this point as stated earlier, Bruno arrived and we tested him, Matic, Pogba.
 
Points totals don't take into consideration the relative strength of the league. How injuries may have affected things. Whether cup runs would have played a factor (we played 23 times in cup competitions). Whether our fixtures were favourable or not after midweek European games. Etc etc etc

Fact is, there is no real common indicator of progress. You have to look at these things objectively.
The relative strength of the league I don't think is a consideration if a club has a strong squad and we now have a top 4 squad. Last season I could of agreed with you because we did have a paper thin squad. but the whole point of a club like United is to have Cup runs and play 50+ games a season.

I think this season expectations should change. We now have adequate back up in nearly every position except for the famous RW position and maybe the RB spot although hopefully Laird could feature or even Williams.

Shaw injury would of affected us last season but now having Telles it takes the pressure off. If Rashford is out for a few games then we have Martial with Cavani up top to take his place. We can rotate between Mata and Greenwood. We have decent midfield coverage if there's any injuries so even if we do have a lot of games or a few injuries we should be able to cope which is why I'm expecting a more points tally than last season.

It's true other clubs have improved but so have we. Liverpool and City are the obvious standouts but for now both clubs have their biggest talismans out for some time. Injuries are part and parcel of the game so unless its a club like Southampton who are definitely going to miss Danny Ings then I don't think it's going to make a massive difference in our final points tally.
 
Personally I feel points is a very good objective measure. No of course you don't care if you win the league with 70 points, but if you finish 33 points behind the leaders in 3rd it obviously shows that you are miles behind your competition. Ole has a decent big game record but ultimately his record so far has been bang average. I think his point average in the league is the same as Moyes.
 
Again, that's bullshit. Last season we started in August, by September he made 3 apps off the bench playing in more than half the game and in October he was a starter. He was well established for us by then, starting in every Premier league game from October to February. After this point as stated earlier, Bruno arrived and we tested him, Matic, Pogba.
This is just derailing the thread now. I'm not saying he wasn't playing, just that he was far from being seen as a key top 4 (66+ points) player at the time.
 
This is just derailing the thread now. I'm not saying he wasn't playing, just that he was far from being seen as a key top 4 (66+ points) player at the time.
Except he was. Because he was one of the key performers for our squad. Even when we didn't win games he was one of the few stars that never let us down. Ex players pointed to him as our player of the season, so yeah this idea that he wasn't a player capable of established high level output is just not correct.

Going back to the actual point - Ole had lots of talent last year to do better. Ole has lots of talent now to do better. It's starting to become the long goodbye, unless he goes on some mad run of wins.
 
The relative strength of the league I don't think is a consideration if a club has a strong squad and we now have a top 4 squad. Last season I could of agreed with you because we did have a paper thin squad. but the whole point of a club like United is to have Cup runs and play 50+ games a season.

I think this season expectations should change. We now have adequate back up in nearly every position except for the famous RW position and maybe the RB spot although hopefully Laird could feature or even Williams.

Shaw injury would of affected us last season but now having Telles it takes the pressure off. If Rashford is out for a few games then we have Martial with Cavani up top to take his place. We can rotate between Mata and Greenwood. We have decent midfield coverage if there's any injuries so even if we do have a lot of games or a few injuries we should be able to cope which is why I'm expecting a more points tally than last season.

It's true other clubs have improved but so have we. Liverpool and City are the obvious standouts but for now both clubs have their biggest talismans out for some time. Injuries are part and parcel of the game so unless its a club like Southampton who are definitely going to miss Danny Ings then I don't think it's going to make a massive difference in our final points tally.

I completely agree that expectations this season should be different compared to last. For me though points total is a part of the conversation but definitely not with the same level of importance that you are placing on it.

Don't get me wrong here. At some point we all know that United are going to need to be more consistent in order to win the title, and that will naturally bring with it a higher points total, but we are not there yet.

This league is getting stronger and stronger. Its more difficult to reach 66 points now than it was 5 years ago
 
League position is obviously all that really matters, but mention league position and you get the same tools that bang on about points total saying how Leicester collapsed or we were one fixture away from finishing 5th.

It would be a disappointment if we finished lower than 3rd but let's assess objectively at the end of the season. We might finish 5th but win the CL. Bruno might break his leg on Int'l duty. An infinite number of things can happen.
Well I think this is Ole's main problem, and our previous managers. Ultimately once it becomes clear we won't get top four with him he'll be gone. Many (me included) believe you need a more ruthless approach than that and to get rid of an underperforming manager in time for a new one to still have a realistic chance to get top four, which Ole may well have done himself if we replaced Mourinho with him sooner, it's worth pointing out.
 
Well I think this is Ole's main problem, and our previous managers. Ultimately once it becomes clear we won't get top four with him he'll be gone. Many (me included) believe you need a more ruthless approach than that and to get rid of an underperforming manager in time for a new one to still have a realistic chance to get top four, which Ole may well have done himself if we replaced Mourinho with him sooner, it's worth pointing out.

I really think they are looking longer term now. We were well off the top 4 pace for a lot of last season. Would have been so easy to make a change after that Burnley defeat, but they didnt flinch, and im fairly confident he'd have stayed without top 4.

If, as I've always believed, our goal is not 'top 4 at all costs' but instead to be the best placed team to take over when City and Liverpool fade, then we are doing a lot of good things at the club and looking well placed to be that team.
 
I really think they are looking longer term now. We were well off the top 4 pace for a lot of last season. Would have been so easy to make a change after that Burnley defeat, but they didnt flinch, and im fairly confident he'd have stayed without top 4.

If, as I've always believed, our goal is not 'top 4 at all costs' but instead to be the best placed team to take over when City and Liverpool fade, then we are doing a lot of good things at the club and looking well placed to be that team.

Here is this weird notion again, when City and Liverpool fade away. Both teams objectively have better managers and organizations in place, yet you take away their ability to buy new players and develop what they already have when some of the players are phased out? Besides, are you also taking away their ability to hire new managers? Chances are they are going into the market and not finding ex-players that were there 20 years ago like Sami Hyypia and Richard Dunne.
 
I really think they are looking longer term now. We were well off the top 4 pace for a lot of last season. Would have been so easy to make a change after that Burnley defeat, but they didnt flinch, and im fairly confident he'd have stayed without top 4.

If, as I've always believed, our goal is not 'top 4 at all costs' but instead to be the best placed team to take over when City and Liverpool fade, then we are doing a lot of good things at the club and looking well placed to be that team.
That's all well and good too but again, to look longer team you have to also see very strong signs of progress, and as you said yourself, football is a results based game and league position is what ultimately matters. Not a chance Ole will be kept if we drop out of top four.

Also, why would City "fade"? They've basically won the league every other season since 2012.
 
Ole in until and unless Hans Flick is coming to United.

Maybe if Zidane is willing to come here, I'll give it a thought about changing my vote.
 
I really think they are looking longer term now. We were well off the top 4 pace for a lot of last season. Would have been so easy to make a change after that Burnley defeat, but they didnt flinch, and im fairly confident he'd have stayed without top 4.

If, as I've always believed, our goal is not 'top 4 at all costs' but instead to be the best placed team to take over when City and Liverpool fade, then we are doing a lot of good things at the club and looking well placed to be that team.
You really believe we do the job needed to be that team when City AND Liverpool fade? Come on! Firstly, the chance both are fading in the same time is null. And to be maybe that team we need to challenge for the title (as Liverpool 2 years ago).
 
League position always trumps points as far as relevancy is concerned as the league is differently set up each year. How tight the competition is, the gaps in quality, all kinds of variables affecting your prospects. It's never the same from one season to the next, each campaign is different from the previous and how points are distributed differs with it. Becoming champions with seventy points is better than ending up second or third with eighty, as league position is the only real measure of how good you were compared to everyone else.

We ended up third last year, hence we were third best. Very impressive considering the lack of quality up front when we started out, and considering we're not that stripped of depth anymore this is where the bar should be. Solidified top-four.
 
Honestly last season has become extremely overrated. At some point it seems people here will start pointing 3 fingers at us for the 3 semi finals we reached or something. I remember someone joking about that here.

It was on bar with LVG first season. Top 4 with promising ending to the season and hopes for next one, and trophyless. Put both seasons in front of you and you will find nothing that different, and we were also starting a huge rebuild at this point. Just at this point United fans were still not exaggerating.
 
I completely agree that expectations this season should be different compared to last. For me though points total is a part of the conversation but definitely not with the same level of importance that you are placing on it.

Don't get me wrong here. At some point we all know that United are going to need to be more consistent in order to win the title, and that will naturally bring with it a higher points total, but we are not there yet.

This league is getting stronger and stronger. Its more difficult to reach 66 points now than it was 5 years ago
If Ole had spent little or no money then I'd definitely agree with you but in 3 windows he's spent 300m+ More than any other manager in the league (World?) and has a stupidly talented player like Greenwood to call upon. The difference this season is we now have one of the best squads in the league and even though I don't expect us to finish ahead of the top 2 I do expect us to be challenging Chelsea for that 3rd spot. If that happens then its true it doesn't matter what points we get, it could be seen as a relatively successful season.
 
Honestly last season has become extremely overrated. At some point it seems people here will start pointing 3 fingers at us for the 3 semi finals we reached or something. I remember someone joking about that here.

It was on bar with LVG first season. Top 4 with promising ending to the season and hopes for next one, and trophyless. Put both seasons in front of you and you will find nothing that different, and we were also starting a huge rebuild at this point. Just at this point United fans were still not exaggerating.

With the additional caveat that LVG was trying something very radical from a tactical perspective AND Ole also had the additional 6 months before last season as well.
 
Here is this weird notion again, when City and Liverpool fade away. Both teams objectively have better managers and organizations in place, yet you take away their ability to buy new players and develop what they already have when some of the players are phased out? Besides, are you also taking away their ability to hire new managers? Chances are they are going into the market and not finding ex-players that were there 20 years ago like Sami Hyypia and Richard Dunne.

Fade away meaning not getting 100 points, not falling into mediocrity. We are seeing the City squad ageing and Pep has a shelf life wherever he goes. Liverpool are better placed to carry on dominating, but things change in football.

The point being that United are not getting to 95+ points until we build that consistency. This is the view that I believe our club are taking. During that period we of course have to continue to progress, otherwise Ole will be replaced, but I believe our expectations are tailored towards the future and peaking at a certain point in time
 
That's all well and good too but again, to look longer team you have to also see very strong signs of progress, and as you said yourself, football is a results based game and league position is what ultimately matters. Not a chance Ole will be kept if we drop out of top four.

Also, why would City "fade"? They've basically won the league every other season since 2012.

Agreed. I think there would be more pressure on Ole to get top 4 this season than there was last season. However the PL is unique in the number of strong teams there are pushing for those places.

I could see a scenario where a deep run in the CL could be seen as another stepping stone for this team, regardless of league position, but let's see. Its going to be an interesting season. I will quickly change my view on keeping Ole here if that time comes where I believe he is not taking us forwards.
 
You really believe we do the job needed to be that team when City AND Liverpool fade? Come on! Firstly, the chance both are fading in the same time is null. And to be maybe that team we need to challenge for the title (as Liverpool 2 years ago).

Yes I do really believe that, and by fade I do not mean become poor teams. I mean teams that are not putting 30+ league wins on the board.

We are trying to add players with the right character, which brings consistency in performance. We know on our day we have a strong football team here, but we still suffer when we rotate and/or experiment and you cant navigate an entire season without doing that.

These problems need to be solved regardless of who our manager is. There is no quick fix.
 
Actually that's not true. Even in this mega-thread, there are a lot of people who've pointed out clearly what they felt were realistic expectations and what it will take for them to keep supporting this project. I've never had issues setting that bar either:

1) Just get some positivity back, and get our squad going again / implement some United-worthy standards. He did that, changed our entire culture to resemble what it once was. It was pretty much manager boost of the century once he got in, that was a historical run especially considering how we looked prior to his emergence. He didn't get this job by a fluke, he got it on merit, something nobody expected or would have even believed unless they saw it with their own two eyes. And when that incredible run dwindled away, as most of us predicted it would, lets be honest here we still had the same players who'd been prone to downing tools for years so we knew they wouldn't bother keeping that up, he weeded out those who were considered bad influences (well as many as can be realistically expected at least I mean wages and all considered they're hard to ship off) and brought in some quality signings.

Huge let-down though, a big disappointment to me at least, was only getting our defense up to standard, not even replacing Herrera and Lukaku (nobody missed Sanchez at that point) leaving our squad so thin we'd have to depend on Mata, Lingard, Pereira and James as our main contributors up front. If we'd brought in a proper box-to-box and a creative midfielder, also a decent striker, I'd have expected a solid top-four performance next season. However I knew we'd be vulnerable to injuries and struggle in general creating enough chances after that window, I believe most did, so I lowered my expectations to the following:

2) A decent run for top-four, meaning that even if we didn't make it at least we would end up within striking distance making a respectable go at it. Considering how weak our squad was, I actually expected another season with Europa League. I felt that was realistic, and it surprised me how many were calling for his head during that first part of that season even though it clearly wasn't his fault we were struggling he was just making the best of a miserable situation. Their expectations were, all things considered, unrealistically high.

I mean come on... Our offensive setup during most of those matches were Mata, Pereira, Lingard and James, with Rashford, Pogba (who's hit-and-miss anyways) and Martial taking turns getting injured. I dare anyone to name one manager, Sir Alex included, who could turn that lineup into top-four quality. Well we made third, which was more than I expected, due to less injuries throughout the second half of the season and also Bruno coming in making such a huge difference I'm still a bit awestruck. Now just imagine if we'd gotten him during the summer, and not had to wait until January? If we did I'd have raised my expectations then to what they are now:

3) Ending this season as a solidified top-four side. We have that quality now, there's been enough time to implement the necessary cohesion too, so that's where I expect us to be when this campaign finishes. If not though, if they can't keep their motivation up and become consistent (because that's what's plaguing us now and it's a fixable problem) I'd be sad to see Ole go. Unless we miss it by a mile I would even caution against it, but at least I'd understand why. And also, more importantly: I'd still compliment him on the work he's done.

Because I remember where we were before him, and I know what conditions he's had to work under, how far behind the United of the nineties and naughties we've fallen, and you'd have to be blind not to acknowledge his contribution. I'll even say he's done as well as could be expected from anyone, and I'm especially impressed with how he's handled all the pressure and uncertainty surrounding him with everyone writing him off as a nobody and wanting him to fail it seems, even our own supporters.

I'll even go further and add that our next manager, if Solskjær doesn't make it that is (I'm still hopeful he will), should thank him for laying down the groundwork. Because thanks to Ole, he'll sure have an easier job than his predecessor ever did.

Cheers for the detailed answer.

Now, regarding your first two points, i believe the Caf was brimming with positivity during his initial run and the vast majority of pundits, both neutrals and the ones with ties to the club, were saying that he deserved to get the full job. And while it's true that questions started to rise when the wheels came off toward the end of his half-season, the majority of the fanbase was still behind him. Then the forum was polarized for the first time during Solskjaer's reign in the summer that followed. But not because people's expectations were high but because the people who were screaming their lungs out that the team wasn't good enough were seeing in Solskjaer a living, breathing, walking PR machine in all his interviews. You are correct about Lingard, Pereira, Mata and all the others but it wasn't me standing in front of the microphones calling all the fans who wanted more activity in the transfer market "spoiled internet fans". That was Solskjaer. In the end, it was a quality January transfer that did the trick for him. Someone literally created a thread on the first week, when we beat Chelsea 4-0, laughing at the posters who were saying that the team is poor and that we needed transfers. As our atrocious start to the season was occurring, the "all he needs is a good preseason to fix the fitness" argument turned into a tirade of excuses. Don't you think that this contributes to the toxicity around here?

Personally, i never had a problem with his appointment. I believe he prepared for his first full season in a way that indicated his noble intentions but also showcased a lot of naivety on his part. When i say naivety, i mean what you describe as a huge let down in your second paragraph. You can search my posts at the start of last season to see my stance on the matter. I was of the opinion that with Chelsea's transfer ban and with Spurs and Arsenal being basically in no man's land, it would be criminal to miss out on CL football. All in all, we weren't far apart in our opinions. Which i suspect is the case with most Ole-in and Ole-out posters. Now, i'm not convinced that Solskjaer is the man to take us forward but he met the criteria i set (and exceeded yours), unlike many of his supporters who refuse to set any, in my mind. I do believe there's a healthy discussion to be had about the total points but, putting all the mitigating factors (lack of previous experience managing at this level, Woodward, state of the squad, Covid-19 etc.) into consideration, thumbs up to him for navigating the ship safely into the harbour. I changed my vote, if this is an indication of anything on here, to keep and i admit that there's not enough evidence yet for taking any drastic actions besides a feeling that some may be experiencing more than others that we've seen this play before. If someone like Pep/Klopp was available, i probably would have been more vocal about it. I'm not very enthusiastic about the prospect of Poch managing United in the sense that i don't believe we'll see a vast improvement under him, one that justifies changing a manager 8 games into a new season. We can wait until the end of the season. With Klopp and Rogers, it was far easier to make the call.

About your expectations for this season: I appreciate for your crystal clear opinion (i'm being serious and not in any way condescending). In fact, my expectations are very similar. I would even take 4-5 more wins and the gap between our terrific highs and our devastating lows being decreased (in other words, more consistency) even if we don't manage to finish in the top-four.

And this is the thing for me. Now that you have stated your expectations and i have told you mine, we can have a good conversation even if we stand on the opposite sides of the fence. Not for me to shout "out, out, out" and for you to retort "keep, keep, keep", not to place all the blame on his shoulders or absolve him of all responsibility but to be able to evaluate the club's position. Not to claim that there shouldn't be any excuses for him, if he fails, but to discuss the validity of each excuse point of defence and the extent to which it can be used. Or, you know, to suggest that he overachieved.
 
Honestly last season has become extremely overrated. At some point it seems people here will start pointing 3 fingers at us for the 3 semi finals we reached or something. I remember someone joking about that here.

It was on bar with LVG first season. Top 4 with promising ending to the season and hopes for next one, and trophyless. Put both seasons in front of you and you will find nothing that different, and we were also starting a huge rebuild at this point. Just at this point United fans were still not exaggerating.

Maybe it has, my friend. But most of the people who believe that he's not up for it (including me) were of the opinion that he should make top-four otherwise he would have failed. He did finish in the top-four and that's what the opposite portion of the fanbase point at. If we want them to be more specific about where they set the bar, we must first be consistent in our own opinions. If it's a fluke, he'll not be able to retain our top-four status. We'll just have to wait and see and not tear at each other. What if 65 points gets us top-four this season too? He'll still be far away from the top two but he'll also be the first manager post-SAF to finish in the top-four in two consecutive seasons. And no one will be able to take that away from him. Plus, nobody was asking for LvG's head on a plate after his first season.
 
If Ole had spent little or no money then I'd definitely agree with you but in 3 windows he's spent 300m+ More than any other manager in the league (World?) and has a stupidly talented player like Greenwood to call upon. The difference this season is we now have one of the best squads in the league and even though I don't expect us to finish ahead of the top 2 I do expect us to be challenging Chelsea for that 3rd spot. If that happens then its true it doesn't matter what points we get, it could be seen as a relatively successful season.

We definitely have the strongest squad we've had under Ole, and thats a credit to him, but we are still maturing as a team. Consistency is tough to attain.

Our ceiling is slowly improving. I think we are a more complete team than Chelsea are when we are at our best, but we arent as good as the very best yet. Our age profile is very good and we are adding character into the team. That breeds the culture that we need, and will elevate the dressing room over time.

Our floor is the problem. When we are bad we are very bad, and we will lose more matches before we figure that out. Look at what we've seen this season already. Both ends of the spectrum. I saw a team yesterday fighting for those points. Not just for Ole, for themselves, because they were stung by the criticism. The challenge is bringing that level of intensity to every game. Ole will ultimately live or die on whether or not he, along with those senior players, can drag that out of the team.

If and when, and only when, we can raise our floor we will be ready to challenge for the title. Those are mental challenges far more than they are tactical.
 
I've been yo-yoing about this for months now, I love Ole, and when we play well we are brilliant and I love watching us.
But the one thing Ole can't seem to instill in the team is week in week out consistency, and with the players we have that should be a given by now.
So I'm torn on this subject really. The players clearly love him though, so I don't think we'll ever see a Jose down tools type scenario.
 
Personally, whether sacking Ole is the right decision or not, I believe that once players have eaten through their third unsuccessful manager in a row, serious questions need to be asked about the mentality, application and professionalism of those player.

If Solskjaer gets the sack, these are the players that will be on their fifth(!) manager at Manchester United since SAF:

David de Gea, Phil Jones, Juan Mata, Jesse Lindgard, Marcus Rojo

These players will be on their fourth manager at Manchester United:

Anthony Martial, Marcus Rashford, Luke Shaw

And these players will be on their third manager (last chance saloon):

Victor Lindelof, Eric Bailly, Paul Pogba, Fred, Nemanja Matic, Scott McTominay
 
We definitely have the strongest squad we've had under Ole, and thats a credit to him, but we are still maturing as a team. Consistency is tough to attain.

Our ceiling is slowly improving. I think we are a more complete team than Chelsea are when we are at our best, but we arent as good as the very best yet. Our age profile is very good and we are adding character into the team. That breeds the culture that we need, and will elevate the dressing room over time.

Our floor is the problem. When we are bad we are very bad, and we will lose more matches before we figure that out. Look at what we've seen this season already. Both ends of the spectrum. I saw a team yesterday fighting for those points. Not just for Ole, for themselves, because they were stung by the criticism. The challenge is bringing that level of intensity to every game. Ole will ultimately live or die on whether or not he, along with those senior players, can drag that out of the team.

If and when, and only when, we can raise our floor we will be ready to challenge for the title. Those are mental challenges far more than they are tactical.
Mostly agree with this. I think this squad is good enough to be top 4 while competing in other comps. And I mean top 4 at end of season, not top 4 at every single point of season.

As for the floor, I thought we were poor against arsenal and obviously spurs was crazy after the sending off... But rarely is our level low I feel. Even versus arsenal we stay in the games and can win with some luck. Over the course of 7 months last season, we lost once and nobody outplayed us, even city for several chances and Liverpool. For me, our floor seems to be still quite solid , just need to have way less games where we are performing at that level
 
Fully behind Ole, this is a long term effort, I don't get all the replace him shit when it is only November, yes the league position is not easy on the eye but it is a crazy league in crazy times. There was a stipulation with previous managers, moyes, lvg and mourinho, no top 4 cheerio, I think the club has changed it's view on that with Ole, no top 4 he will still get to build unless we are in serious danger of relegation but the body language of the players, even in inconsistent performances and results says they give a shit and want to play for him that is key, when moyes, lvg and mourinho were close to exits deep in the season, there is no fecking way they would have got that performance level out of the players like we got yesterday especially after a match in Turkey, if we win a few on the bounce the picture looks very different very quickly in this league. He is still a young manager and I have no doubt he is still learning as he goes but he is intelligent and humble and loves the club and unlike previous managers after SAF I have not doubt he has the sense and humility to consult with SAF, just like SAF did with Sir Matt, it is not perfect yet but as least it feels like United, the majority on here these days are so impatient and entitled and have'nt a clue of how football actually works, a lot of them probably just know the SAF era without actually understanding just how that came about with the patience shown to allow it to happen.
 
Fully behind Ole, this is a long term effort, I don't get all the replace him shit when it is only November, yes the league position is not easy on the eye but it is a crazy league in crazy times. There was a stipulation with previous managers, moyes, lvg and mourinho, no top 4 cheerio, I think the club has changed it's view on that with Ole, no top 4 he will still get to build unless we are in serious danger of relegation but the body language of the players, even in inconsistent performances and results says they give a shit and want to play for him that is key, when moyes, lvg and mourinho were close to exits deep in the season, there is no fecking way they would have got that performance level out of the players like we got yesterday especially after a match in Turkey, if we win a few on the bounce the picture looks very different very quickly in this league. He is still a young manager and I have no doubt he is still learning as he goes but he is intelligent and humble and loves the club and unlike previous managers after SAF I have not doubt he has the sense and humility to consult with SAF, just like SAF did with Sir Matt, it is not perfect yet but as least it feels like United, the majority on here these days are so impatient and entitled and have'nt a clue of how football actually works, a lot of them probably just know the SAF era without actually understanding just how that came about with the patience shown to allow it to happen.

What happened in the SAF era? Was he a previous player too? Did he know the values of the club from the outside looking in. I still haven’t read his book so wasn’t sure where he grow up and how he became United manager.
 
He deserves to stay on for now after getting a decent response against Everton.

I think we'll beat WBA and Istanbul B after the international break, then start to drop points from Southampton onwards.

We have a very tough December coming up also:

  • Southampton (A) - 29th Nov
  • PSG (H) - CL - 2nd Dec
  • West Ham (A) - 5th Dec
  • RB Leipzig (A) - CL - 8th Dec
  • Man City (H) - 12th Dec
  • Sheffield Utd (A) - 15th Dec
  • Leeds Utd (H) - 19th Dec
  • Everton (A) - LC QF - 23th Dec
  • Leicester (A) - 26th Dec
  • Wolves (H) 28th Dec
Sheffield is the only easy game on paper at present.

Having more games on the road might suit us.

Hopefully we should have opportunities to rest players in amongst that lot, and when we do rest now it doesn't drop the quality off a cliff like it used to. Leipzig last game in the group and Everton in the LC obviously the stand outs for that.
 
He deserves to go not because he doesn't know the culture of the club etc etc. He has to go because simply he is not good enough to challenge for the PL and CL.
We have a good squad who can challenge for trophies with a top class coach. And play good football. We have not though we have won some games by playing terrible football. Against Everton it could have gone either way.
 
He deserves to go not because he doesn't know the culture of the club etc etc. He has to go because simply he is not good enough to challenge for the PL and CL.
We have a good squad who can challenge for trophies with a top class coach. And play good football. We have not though we have won some games by playing terrible football. Against Everton it could have gone either way.
I can understand people making an argument for Solskajer to go based on a string of poor results, losing the dressing room or calling out his employers for not backing him. But on what criteria is he being judged against to not be good enough to compete for a title? Where is this checklist that states a manager can or cannot compete? And this is only true until he does actually win something or we get to a final.
 
I really think they are looking longer term now. We were well off the top 4 pace for a lot of last season. Would have been so easy to make a change after that Burnley defeat, but they didnt flinch, and im fairly confident he'd have stayed without top 4.

If, as I've always believed, our goal is not 'top 4 at all costs' but instead to be the best placed team to take over when City and Liverpool fade, then we are doing a lot of good things at the club and looking well placed to be that team.

yes we are. We are not the greatest team yet, but the team Ole is building, along with going back to basics with club values and approach, we seem to be in the right direction.

sir alex himself was given a chance when he got appointed to build team team that can succeed. A more recent example is liverpool. As a united fan i hate to say it, but as a football fan they are a great example. Klopp’s record after 100 games with liverpool is worse than Ole’s. Liverpool stuck by him and it paid off!

we need to stick with Ole. He’s building well. He’ll only gain experience in the process
 
There was a stipulation with previous managers, moyes, lvg and mourinho, no top 4 cheerio, I think the club has changed it's view on that with Ole, no top 4 he will still get to build unless we are in serious danger of relegation

Thankfully this is not the case.

Imagine not finishing top four in the league this season, where everyone and their aunts are dropping points, and then getting to go and waste another £100-150m next summer. By the sounds of it we could finish in the bottom half and you would still be happy to let Ole stay and keep dragging us down.
 
Wtf do some of you mean by a rebuild? Surely, two a half seasons with hundreds of millions spent on 6-7 players, should result in significant improvement, no? I hope the Board are ruthless enough to sack Ole if we are not in CL next season.
 
Mostly agree with this. I think this squad is good enough to be top 4 while competing in other comps. And I mean top 4 at end of season, not top 4 at every single point of season.

As for the floor, I thought we were poor against arsenal and obviously spurs was crazy after the sending off... But rarely is our level low I feel. Even versus arsenal we stay in the games and can win with some luck. Over the course of 7 months last season, we lost once and nobody outplayed us, even city for several chances and Liverpool. For me, our floor seems to be still quite solid , just need to have way less games where we are performing at that level

Yes this is fair. I think perhaps the Istanbul game is still too fresh in my mind. Excluding the first 3 games of the season when we were clearly off the pace we actually haven't been out of a game in a really long while.
 
Hopefully we should have opportunities to rest players in amongst that lot, and when we do rest now it doesn't drop the quality off a cliff like it used to. Leipzig last game in the group and Everton in the LC obviously the stand outs for that.

Regarding Leipzig I think we are still on a knife edge in that group. Thats why losing to Istanbul was so bloody annoying - i cant see them taking points off of anyone else so we still need at least a point from Leipzig away or PSG at home. Those games could go either way.
 
Yes this is fair. I think perhaps the Istanbul game is still too fresh in my mind. Excluding the first 3 games of the season when we were clearly off the pace we actually haven't been out of a game in a really long while.
Huh? We were awful Vs Arsenal. Never looked like scoring a goal. We also got beaten 6-1 by Spurs. How is that not out of the game? I'd love to know what you lot are smoking sometimes.
 
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