Jose would never have won us a league.
Hes finished. The proof is there, he completely melted down on cue
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Jose would never have won us a league.
Hes finished. The proof is there, he completely melted down on cue
Answer the question!! We finished second. If Pep got sacked and they had a manager the lever of Ole in to replace him. Where do we finish??
that season? 2nd
But completely pointless discussion, if uncle had no balls he be my auntie.
Why you even talking about Jose, overall he was a bit of a disaster. I like him, and he did win 2 low level trophies, its a lot for us considering the drought, but overall more failure than success for me. Club was complete shit show when he was sacked.
Well I take that as a yes. Maybe not so funny now was it.
I wasn’t talking about how it ended. It ended exactly how it ended at Chelsea and he won them a league. When Ole’s done he’ll leave winning us Jake shite.
Good to see that the posters who had voted for the sack have stopped flip-flopping.
Pleased as I was with the win yesterday, the game revealed the same flaws in our approach. Reliance on individual brilliance to get goals and then waiting for the opposition to make mistakes. A Mourinho team. Simply not sustainable. Another bad result against a mediocre side is just around the corner.
Pleased as I was with the win yesterday, the game revealed the same flaws in our approach. Reliance on individual brilliance to get goals and then waiting for the opposition to make mistakes. A Mourinho team. Simply not sustainable. Another bad result against a mediocre side is just around the corner.
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First 2 goals vs Everton was very well worked goals. If Bruno scoring header is individual brilliance then every goal is down to individual brilliance.
No I don't mean the finishes themselves, I mean the moves that lead to them. A rare cross from Shaw and then from Fernandes. Great. But they never happened again; the players don't consistently make the sort of runs that should be part of a consistent attacking plan. They are making it up as they go along, which is the individual brillance bit I mentioned. This is why we don't ever see United putting a team under pressure persistently.
An example: late in the first-half, the ball was won high up the pitch. Fernandes (I think) passed it sideways to McT who passed it sideways to AWB in acres of space on the wing. Nobody was making a run into the box. Also, Mata was nowhere near him, either to make an overlapping run or to receive the ball so that AWB could make the run himself. What did AWB did do? He held onto the ball and then passed it back to Lindelof. This kind of breaking down of moves happens because of a clear lack of plan on how to support teammates. And it happens time and time again. Clear deficiencies in coaching.
The second question is redundant. Nobody is guaranteed to do a better job at anything, ever.
Klopp, Guardiola and Mourinho combined are not guaranteed to win another trophy in their entire management careers. Doesn't mean they should all be sacked and sent to stack shelves for the rest of their working lives. Likewise no manager is guaranteed to do a better job than Ole. Doesn't mean we should be the only club on the fecking planet who are pathetic and defeatist enough to not try to improve their manager when the current one is failing.
We scored exact same goal vs Istanbul. Also Shaw plays plenty of crosses, most of the times they are cleared and few times our players just messes up the chance.
Odd way to define individual brilliance. "They are making it up as they go along" How can anyone know that.
I don't think anyone will say we are very well coached team, that doesn't mean we are 0 coached team. Yesterday the goals we scored are proper team goals.
Comparisons can be meaningless and people are always saying you can't compare Klopp and Ole, but I thought ot worth cpomparing their first 100 games after BBC reported Ole had a better win rate. In fact Ole is better in almost every aspect
Win %: Klopp 50%, Ole 55%
Goals for: Klopp 182, Ole 182
Goals against: Klopp 108, Ole 96
Clean sheets Klopp 35, Ole 38
So why did Klopp get fairly constant support, but for United the media and fan reaction lurches from in to out. I'm not shouting for Ole to stay or go, but I do find the comparison of results and the treatment the manager gets from media and fans bizarre.
Liverpool Team Performance Klopp's 1st 100 games
Manchester United Team Performance Ole's 1st 100 games
Win %: Klopp 50%, Ole 55%
Goals for: Klopp 182, Ole 182
Goals against: Klopp 108, Ole 96
Clean sheets Klopp 35, Ole 38
So why did Klopp get fairly constant support, but for United the media and fan reaction lurches from in to out. I'm not shouting for Ole to stay or go, but I do find the comparison of results and the treatment the manager gets from media and fans bizarre.
Liverpool Team Performance Klopp's 1st 100 games
| Variable | P | W | D | L | F | A | GD | CS | Win % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Premier League | 69 | 35 | 20 | 14 | 136 | 85 | 51 | 20 | 51 |
| FA Cup | 7 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 8 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 29 |
| League Cup | 11 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 21 | 6 | 15 | 5 | 64 |
| Europa League | 13 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 17 | 11 | 6 | 6 | 46 |
| Overall | 100 | 50 | 29 | 21 | 182 | 108 | 74 | 35 | 50 |
Manchester United Team Performance Ole's 1st 100 games
Variable | P | W | D | L | F | A | GD | CS | Win % |
| Premier League | 65 | 32 | 17 | 16 | 111 | 70 | 41 | 19 | 49.2 |
| FA Cup | 10 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 22 | 7 | 15 | 6 | 70.0 |
| League Cup | 7 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 14 | 5 | 9 | 4 | 71.4 |
| Champions League | 6 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 10 | 8 | 2 | 1 | 50 |
| Europa League | 12 | 8 | 2 | 2 | 25 | 6 | 19 | 8 | 66.7 |
| Overall | 100 | 55 | 21 | 24 | 182 | 96 | 86 | 38 | 55 |
One of the biggest differences between us and them in recent years is how well they've done in the market. They managed to get good money for dross like Benteke and Sakho, nearly 150 million for Coutinho while getting both Salah and Mane for under 50 million each
The only good deal we've managed in recent years is Bruno for 55 million
Yeah it does rather seem that way
In a game in which that was not repeated again and which we lost quite deservedly. We never looked like scoring again, as in the games against Chelsea and Arsenal. That was my point: the frequency of these moments of quality is too low, and that's not due to the players' ability but down to coaching.
EDIT: Just to clarify the point further, our attacking play demands a level of finishing accuracy that illustrates why we don't work the opposition GK enough. Shaw and Fernandes are not putting in 10 of those kinds of balls into the box in a game. They are putting in 1 or 2 crosses and in some games we get a goal. In most games, we don't because the probablity of scoring from few crosses per game is quite low. We are 11th in the table in expected goals overall--quite fittingly.
By watching the game.
When did I say that? It's not at a level that is anywhere close to adequate for United.
3 posts exhaused for the day. I'm out.
EDIT: Thanks for the insult.
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Wow we didn't repeat the same move in all the games, so that means it's individual brilliance. We scored similar goal with AWB crossing the ball few times.
Yes the frequency is not high as we don't cross enough, that doesn't mean it's individual brilliance. Bruno scoring vs Everton last season was individual brilliance, Rashford winning penalty vs City was individual brilliance
Ofcourse it's not enough, that doesn't mean you should make things up as you go along.
Well guess what. Even though we won we will be back in the same awful situation in 3 or 4 weeks.
So because Salah/Mane played at smaller clubs they were "average"? Was Bruno average because he played in Portugal before he got here? Mane finished 15/16 as top scorer for Soton, Salah had 15 goals and 11 assists for Roma in 16/17, they were hardly average players.
I know its an inconvenient truth, but Klopp did not coach the Liverpool players into "his" team, he acquired them through the market. In fact, Liverpool have done some really great business the last decade or so, which long predates Klopp. For example they bought Suarez for 28 million, he nearly carried them to a league victory on his own then he got sold for 82 million. Coutinho was bought for 8,5 million and sold for a whopping 142 million. Of course they've bought some absolute rubbish along the way to, but for the most part they managed to recoup their expenses by getting decent fees for them when they eventually was moved on
We have manged to spend nearly 1 billion since Fergie retired and what do we have to show for it?
so you want the club to lose? Were you happy with Everton scored yesterday?
a pathetic and defeatist club?
that’s our fans mate. Who will be exactly the same with the next manager.
No shame in accepting that he is not good enough. It is not the end of world, of course he will win some games, ffs he has the second most expensive team in the league, but he will continue lose others and we will always look like that (inconsistent).
Another thing, stop the comparison with other top managers specially sir Alex and Klopp, it will only make him look stupid.
I think he will not be sacked unless we are behind top 4 with a big margin which will never happen because of the quality of the team he has but the best thing we can achieve with him is top 6 (never the title) because of his shortcomings.
Another thing, stop the comparison with other top managers specially sir Alex and Klopp, it will only make him look stupid.
I think he will not be sacked unless we are behind top 4 with a big margin which will never happen because of the quality of the team he has but the best thing we can achieve with him is top 6 (never the title) because of his shortcomings.
What a great post.
Good post, but expect replies such as “you could see clearly what Klopp was trying to do” whereas in reality you couldn’t really see much for a long long time.
I believe it’s rather that he was already considered as a good manager because of his success at Dortmund.
Whereas some United fans have somehow developed an inferiority complex. Because of this instead of trying to be objective when judging Ole, they would rather have a meltdown by asking everyone who else would have appointed a “PE teacher who has only won trophies in Norway”. They will also worship every other manager who makes average players look good completely ignoring the possibility that those managers might not necessarily be successful in implementing the same system with better players and in a completely different club environment.
Then when we play well it’s down to individual brilliance, but when we lose Ole needs to go. Of course other top teams don’t rely on individual brilliance at all.
If you compare this behaviour to Chelsea fans, I don’t see them worshipping Nagelsmann, Bielsa & Co and asking Lampard to be replaced by them.
But then again this forum has so many members and United is one of the biggest clubs, so it’s probably expected that you will get some people who can’t deal with anything but success and will plaster their repetitive rants all over the forum. Fair criticism and even wanting Ole out is fair enough, but over the top comments and calling him the worst manager in the PL or championship quality, well I can’t take those comments seriously.
Part of the problem for some United fans is probably also Liverpool doing so well. So we have won 13 premier league titles to their grand total of 1 so far. They had to watch their biggest rival win 13 league titles as well as Blackburn, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and even Leicester winning one / a few before they finally got their hand on the trophy. They are a very big club with a big fan base, did anyone really think they would never ever win the league again?
It’s their time now, it could be over soon and they could even replace Klopp with Gerrard.
It would be so much easier for fans if they mainly focused on their own team and less on others.
Ole is obviously not perfect but considering our failings with Jose and LvG thankfully some United fans at least have seen enough positive signs and are happy to give him more time.
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Well - even if it's not what I wanted - we cant complain about £80 million for v.d Beek, Pellistri, Diallo, Cavani and Telles.
To see progress from previous year
Top 3/4
Going far in one of the cups and getting a trophy.
Next year, to go for it in Premier League. He will be on his 3rd full season and we can demand more.
Solskjaer don’t get my support if he has some kind of meltdown towards everyone, including our club. If we go out in cups early and are far from 3/4 in Premier League around Christmas there should be discussion about his future.
No one wants us to lose a match so they can rant on internet forum. They want us to lose for the betterment of the club, when Ole gets sacked we can finally move forward and not be stuck in mediocrity. Supporting the future of the club is more important than supporting Ole.
you wanted us to lose yesterday?
I was not happy buy indifferent, same feeling when we scored as this is only just a postonement of the inevitable. During his 2 years, this happen 2/3 times already i.e. having his job hanging by one match outcome. Guess what? it will happen again pretty soon as it is a trend backed by 2 years of YoYo results. Thats why I preferred a loss not because I want United losing but to get a proper manager in charge during the international break to start fixing things, we lost the chance thanks to a clueless board that base thing on game by game bases and we are risking of ruining the season. When we will have another bad path or wont finish tp 4 then they will sack the manager and it will be too late.
Ahh. This is the revised crap that seems to be going on now. "Liverpool's style of play under Klopp was hard to notice for a long time or till he bought Van Dijk and Allison". Let's not rewrite history please. By Klopp's second full season with Liverpool there was a consistent style of play. Ole is also in his second full season and I'm yet to see a consistent or defined style of play, the high press or the team run the hardest or quick transitions from the back, all of which Ole described as how he wants to see us play. Even though their stats are similar, that's the difference between Klopp after 100 games and Ole after 100 games. One thing I can say though is this is genuinely the best United side since Fergie and the one that I've enjoyed the most.
This is exactly what I believe, but some fans, for some reason (maybe becuase he is an ex player, maybe because they hate the board and blame them for the shortcoming of Ole etc), they believe he will be fergie v2
Since I know this club is never going to be proactive and sack Ole, I just watch the club like a zombie, happy at goals we score, not caring when we concede, resigned to be achieving nothing. I don't celebrate wins, not really mad at losses anymore.
Wait, people are seriously comparing their first 100 games, and advocating that it is similar and in fact Ole is better?!!!
No contexts to consider?
Klopp's first and maybe 2nd team for that earliest 100 games are basically shit to be honest, I don't fear them at all. Shit defense and unreliable attacks. Tough for me to admit that they are darn entertaining with their gung-ho attacking approach and high press system. The system and style of play is clear from the very first start. Then Klopp sensibly started to adapt to the league and play more and more conservatively to survive this league. That's show he himself are good at adapting and sensible enough. He chose to build from the top attacking than at the back though. I remember it started with Mane was it? He changed them. Then Robertson and eventually TAA. Klopp gambled on TAA and it works. Firmino is already there from the start which is key to the best 11 than he can think of, so he basically builds the attack around Firmino who tend to score less and don't really have the speed plus he likes to drop deep. Mane fits him.. then Salah to complete the attacks. With Robertson and TAA, Klopp started to sacrifice midfield playmaking (not like he had a good one after Coutinho left) in exchange for more protection to his fragile defense. There's a limit though with their shit keeper and generally shit CBs. Van Dijk is a huge addition, then Allisson. There complete current system at the end. Season after season improvements. Worth mentioning Klopp is generally more ruthless, even with newer players eg. Karius. He fixed his GK situation and then getting a better 2nd keeper afterward asap didn't he, after the legendary Karius performance. How many of their before shit players turn great again? Also they basically play like a team with maybe just Salah that are more individualistic, which basically balance their whole team.
Ole's instead... is there really any improvements season after seasons? He decided to first build from the back, but turns out on their own, the defenders are shit and in need of supports from a dual combination of Fred and McT/Matic always. Always. Our attacks are still shit and still struggle against majority of the teams. The more spaces given and so more chances we could get especially in big games, then the better we tend to perform. We're no clinical enough which is why we're shit vs the weaker low blocks teams. And again clearly we still ahve poor organization, from the 1st season until 3rd, still bad and laughable. Bruno improved our attacks massively, but with no good system nor good at the backs, we're basically still shit. Balance of 11 is still questionable. Ole is also less ruthless and still supporting Lingard to get back. Rubbish. And seriously how many players are getting worse or stalling their developments? seems a lot. Even Bruno is getting less consistent nowadays. Also basically we play less like a team (seriously many of our players don't know how to play with each other, positionally often overlap with one another) and more like miss-mash of individuals grouped together, only 1-2 players are team palyers.
Does it matter that Ole is better or comparable to Klopp's first 100 games?
It's like people say proudly saying their start are great (they had a great start) basically pointless bragging rights.
No contexts to consider?
Klopp's first and maybe 2nd team for that earliest 100 games are basically shit to be honest, I don't fear them at all. Shit defense and unreliable attacks. Tough for me to admit that they are darn entertaining with their gung-ho attacking approach and high press system. The system and style of play is clear from the very first start. Then Klopp sensibly started to adapt to the league and play more and more conservatively to survive this league. That's show he himself are good at adapting and sensible enough. He chose to build from the top attacking than at the back though. I remember it started with Mane was it? He changed them. Then Robertson and eventually TAA. Klopp gambled on TAA and it works. Firmino is already there from the start which is key to the best 11 than he can think of, so he basically builds the attack around Firmino who tend to score less and don't really have the speed plus he likes to drop deep. Mane fits him.. then Salah to complete the attacks. With Robertson and TAA, Klopp started to sacrifice midfield playmaking (not like he had a good one after Coutinho left) in exchange for more protection to his fragile defense. There's a limit though with their shit keeper and generally shit CBs. Van Dijk is a huge addition, then Allisson. There complete current system at the end. Season after season improvements. Worth mentioning Klopp is generally more ruthless, even with newer players eg. Karius. He fixed his GK situation and then getting a better 2nd keeper afterward asap didn't he, after the legendary Karius performance. How many of their before shit players turn great again? Also they basically play like a team with maybe just Salah that are more individualistic, which basically balance their whole team.
Ole's instead... is there really any improvements season after seasons? He decided to first build from the back, but turns out on their own, the defenders are shit and in need of supports from a dual combination of Fred and McT/Matic always. Always. Our attacks are still shit and still struggle against majority of the teams. The more spaces given and so more chances we could get especially in big games, then the better we tend to perform. We're no clinical enough which is why we're shit vs the weaker low blocks teams. And again clearly we still ahve poor organization, from the 1st season until 3rd, still bad and laughable. Bruno improved our attacks massively, but with no good system nor good at the backs, we're basically still shit. Balance of 11 is still questionable. Ole is also less ruthless and still supporting Lingard to get back. Rubbish. And seriously how many players are getting worse or stalling their developments? seems a lot. Even Bruno is getting less consistent nowadays. Also basically we play less like a team (seriously many of our players don't know how to play with each other, positionally often overlap with one another) and more like miss-mash of individuals grouped together, only 1-2 players are team palyers.
Does it matter that Ole is better or comparable to Klopp's first 100 games?
It's like people say proudly saying their start are great (they had a great start) basically pointless bragging rights.
What are you even talking about
Jose wouldnt have won us a league.
He never won one here and got sacked. I dont even know what your original question was as I just seen Jose mentioned, and then you are asking me about Pep being sacked, and Ole in, would they win a league? Did I get that right?
Are you full
Jose ended Shambolic, why are you even still clinging to him, its pathetic.
That sounds healthy. I wonder how long it will take for the penny to drop and for you to realise that you're doing this entire 'football fan' thing completely wrong.
It's the absolute certainty of some of you guys that gets me, ole inners and outers both. None of you really have a clue. I'd love to have seen your take as Fergies first few seasons unfolded, as we laboured to consecutive midtable finishes. Would you have been able to see clear progress? I'm not sure I could at the time. Who knows what's found the corner.
I will be back full support mode after Ole (unless he actually wins the League or CL, in which case I will be back before). I have gone through same with Moyes and Jose.
Apparently it was hard to notice a defined style of play under Klopp for a long long time. It wasn't clear during Klopp's second full season. Our results are inconsistent yes but our style of play is hardly defined also. This shouldn't be so, you can see how Hasenhüttl Southampton for example have a defined style of play, unless the coach sets up defensively, it's how you would expect them to play any given game. Though I expect a certain against teams I can expect a win I have no idea what to expect from our play against West Brom, and the match after that and the match after that.
What are you even talking about
Jose wouldnt have won us a league.
He never won one here and got sacked. I dont even know what your original question was as I just seen Jose mentioned, and then you are asking me about Pep being sacked, and Ole in, would they win a league? Did I get that right?
Are you full
Jose ended Shambolic, why are you even still clinging to him, its pathetic.
You don’t know the whole point of the reason for my response so why butt into a conversation you wasn’t invited to.
Your response still doesn’t make sense. You’re pretty much having a debate with yourself.
Even if Poch came in would it make any difference, We have won all last 10 games bar 1 which was an awful away performance, we need fans at home to make the difference but it's very frustrating watching them being this inconsistent, remember we got Mourinho after he got sacked because he lost the dressing room and same happened to Poch lets just wait till at least January unless we lose more games.
So your support is basically conditional on the club doing what you want them to do.
Like I said, you're doing this whole football fan thing wrong.
Perhaps you are right, but I can't really change how I feel.
Im not sure I've seen any 'Ole inner' sounding certain of success.
Also you are an 'Ole inner' yourself unless you want him sacked today, that's what this thread is.
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