You actually weren't proving anything at all. And your narrow focus on the points total doesn't tell the whole story of the season either.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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You actually weren't proving anything at all. And your narrow focus on the points total doesn't tell the whole story of the season either.
No, that don't have to mean that. That league is poor. It could be that two teams infront of us were just to brilliant.
I think everyone has had this argument way too many times. Progress needs to be measured across the competitors - that is, till the season before there were 5 teams better than us, now there are 2. That is progress. If we finish say 5th this season, it would be quite fair to say that we went back a couple of steps relative to the league.
If you want to compare us last season vs the season before that, it'd much better to look at underlying stats - and I don't just mean goals, goals conceded but stuff like xG metrics, the shots we had, shots against, tackles, interceptions, goals scored and conceded off set pieces, etc. and I'm quite sure we've improved on nearly every single underlying metrics compared to the season before that
We finished third you muppet
I assume if the entire top 4 finish on 75-85 points this season, they'll all be in danger of becoming 'upper midtable teams'We finished third you muppet
For a start, we have a decent team and probably NOT a good team. Its a working progress: Ole wanted a right-winger, a right-back and a striker. He got neither of his choices. But, what he did get was a couple of very young wingers: one went straight into the youth team and the other doesn’t arrive until January. He wanted a right-back and he got a second or third choice but not his FIRST choice. And he wanted a good, young striker, but what he got was an ageing, once great striker. Also, he got a midfielder when he didn’t want one. For a manager who got us into three semis and Champions League, the players the club got for him was a betrayal! To add insult to injury, they got three of these on the last day of the transfer window which meant that he couldn’t incorporate them into squad properly because of a very limited pre-season.
Next, like all managers, he inherited players that stretch back to Moyes days. A ramshackle bunch that three previous managers bought in their tenure. Getting rid of the players he didn’t like and getting in players he wants take time and that can take a few years. Even the great Sir Alex Ferguson took about three or so years before he to build a team he was happy with. You want Ole to do it in half that time. Is he inconsistent? Of course he is! And so he should be. He probably still wants a few more players of HIS choice before he can really stabilise the team and truly make an assault on the title.
Talking about inconsistence look at Lampard, Mourinho, Guardiola and a few others who are still inconsistent.
I’d like you to answer this bond. Seems like you avoided the question since it didnt make sense with your logic.
Maybe not ego, but stubbornness yes.
From the very first game he started playing the dysfunctional 4-2-3-1 it was obvious it wasn't going to go well, yet he used it for an entire season, and even had to make an expensive January purchase just to make up for the glaring deficiency in that formation. Adding to that he's stuck with it this season as we were dominated game after game, until we were absolutely tonked 6-1 by Spurs at home and his job was seriously on the line; only then did he start to make proper changes. To me that's pretty stubborn, and it's just one example of it.
Like the guy said, it's not that complicated if random people on the internet can see it, so I don't understand why it's taken so long. With that said, if he continues to make the right changes, all good.
So by your logic if a team finished with 40 pts and avoided relegation by finishing 17th, then got 40 pts but finished 15th the season after, this would be progress? No its stagnation.
Wow... That's a pretty crap take.
He stubbornly stuck to his beliefs, brought in a player he wanted and stubbornly got his team to third (the bastard).
The dysfunctional formation had us unbeaten in the league from Jan and the first three performances clearly had nothing to do with match fitness.
By the way he changed nothing formation-wise as a reaction to the Spurs result. We still started off with 4231 against Newcastle.
He's changed his formation in big matches as he's always done as a horses for courses kind of thing. As everyone has gotten fitter and we have a lot more options he has the ability to switch things up tactically.
He clearly knows a lot more than us random gobshites on the internet.
Eh maybe. I'm not into the whole 'Ole's been perfect and never done wrong' debate, so I'll leave it at that. I'm just glad to see him making the required changes, and hope it continues.
Hang on every manager makes mistakes and of course Ole's made them.
I never said he'd never done anything wrong but I disagreed with your analysis as it made no sense to me and contained inaccuracies.
To turn what I've said into Ole never did anything wrong to shut down the debate tells me all I need to know.
To be honest, I didn't want to continue because of the hyperbole and sarcasm, an example of which I bolded in your latest reply. Starting off with "wow what a crap take" made me unmotivated to discuss further.
But just in good faith, you're right that my reply did contain inaccuracies, mainly because I'm giving Ole benefit of the doubt and hoping that the changes he's made are more permanent than 'for big games only'. Because I do think that there aree formation and lineup mistakes he's made that has resulted in a lot of poor performances we put out, and he's in the process of rectifying those.
Ah give over that was in response to you telling you weren't interested in talking to me.
The formation got us to third and you're claiming it was a terrible mistake. Then you put our success purely on the signing of Fernandes. After that the fitness issues in the first three games where caused by the formation somehow.
Ok I apologise for saying 'wow what a crap take'.
However, I, wholeheartedly and respectfully, disagree with your analysis.
I appreciate the apology man. I know you didn't mean anything by it, it's simply me not being in that mood at the moment.
I think that formation didn't suit us even when we got 2nd with Mourinho. In fact, one of the main reasons I initially backed Ole was because it seemed to me like he was rectifying all the mistakes Jose made with regards to formation, playing players out of position, and playing substandard players. That's why I was so disappointed to see Ole continue the same trend with the formation, out of position players, and the likes of substandard players like Lingard, Pereira, and James. I think these were clear mistakes, regardless of the fact that we ultimately got 3rd.
And that's why even though we had fitness issues which exacerbated the problem at the beginning of the season, I still think the formation doesn't help us; I've been unconvinced with it for a few seasons and it's no different right now. It's true what you say of Ole rolling out special formations for big games, but I guess I'm just hoping this last one is a more permanent change, especially following our very solid performance.
No I meant nothing by it. I've also had a drink or two as I'm watching Ireland contest the six nations so I could be a bit more insensitive than usual.
I do feel now that we have better options off the bench and they are all gaining more match fitness we'll see more tactical flexibility which we'll need to keep the opposition on their toes.
Ah there we have it
Hope your team's doing vaguely well, and if not, I'll have a drink for your sake.Yeah definitely I think we now have enough quality to go for it this season and the next, hopefully everyone in the team can step up to that challenge especially as it seems we may not have competition as stiff as the last few seasons.
Has the genius your in dialogue with ever figured that a large part of Bruno's success has been that he was identified to play that exact role in that exact formation? Players don't exactly have the autonomy to play anywhere they wish, FFS.
Clueless isn't even the word to that guy's ramblings, mate.
Agenda
If it irks you, feel free to put me on ignore . But don't take that kind of shit on me.
I'm only trying to help you from looking a complete fool on here but it looks like it's already happened . Your argument is beyond hilarious and makes absolutely zero sence .
I remember once Rafa stated FACTS . He looked ridiculous if you catch the drift
I know it’s a joke about being Ole’s first test but all the optimistic from the CL will be sucked out and worse if we don’t beat Arsenal. Yes we are only 3 points off 6th with a match in hand but we are still 15th and if we lose we will stay there(or drop to 16) no matter the results in the CL that will become a problem and will put Ole under pressure big time. I’m hopeful of a win just please don’t start James
Aye, I don't get the rhetoric in that Ole struck gold by landing Bruno. He identified a position that needed investment and bought Bruno. We subsequently improved due to the fact that said positon was filled with a quality player. What's so hard to grasp.
We only got him because Pogba and McTominay got injured and I’m sure if we had unlimited funds that position would have got blown on Maddison.
It IS a crap take you don't have to apologize.
Not sure if serious. If serious that is completely unfair to Ole. Whatever you or anyone can speculate, reality is he got Bruno and Bruno has been a tremendous success. And at least some of the credit goes to Ole for setting up the team to maximize his influence.
Yeah true. But people do realise he’s an 8. We aren’t set up to utilise him. He’s set up to utilise us. But fair play it has worked.
I was bantering put my point is true. He wanted Maddison but after paying £80m for Maguire we can only imagine what the Maddison price would have been.
So funny to see the same people who trashed and called Ole names are suddenly turning around. (still yet to form a positive opinion after 4 defeats in 34 games but yea Ole has learned from his "mistakes" now apparently).
What also irks me is that some say the initial criticism was justified and he's turned things around now. Absolute hogwash. The criticism was immature, reeked of impatience and wasn't based on realistic expectations. They still aren't and believe me.. Next draw and all will revert back to same crap they've posted here since the start. Please don't try to justify the frankly pathetic attempts of many here to undermine our manager. There's a difference between constructive criticism and agenda driven drivel and many here didn't get it.
Having said all that Ole is yet to win anything concrete. Looking forward to that. The points/tactics points even though a bit exaggerated have some basis in facts. Either way positives vastly towers over the negatives.
What also irks me is that some say the initial criticism was justified and he's turned things around now. Absolute hogwash. The criticism was immature, reeked of impatience and wasn't based on realistic expectations. They still aren't and believe me.. Next draw and all will revert back to same crap they've posted here since the start. Please don't try to justify the frankly pathetic attempts of many here to undermine our manager. There's a difference between constructive criticism and agenda driven drivel and many here didn't get it.
Having said all that Ole is yet to win anything concrete. Looking forward to that. The points/tactics points even though a bit exaggerated have some basis in facts. Either way positives vastly towers over the negatives.
I find this laughable. Wasn't 4231 the same formation we used post lockdown to go on a winning run that culminated with us being 3rd.
Why suddenly : "oh Ole has realized his mistakes now" and hence he is doing well? Moving goalposts. I've never seen this many excuses being disproved for a single manager ever (low block, no tactics, Bruno effect, points, counter only, formations, people pleaser.. Etc)
I'd say its one of two things. Players not doing a good job or as required and manager not up to it tactically. We as external observers have no clue which is which.
We have always switched formations against big teams. Its not because of Spurs that we changed it. Temme this :is it easier to bring the final piece of the jigsaw to complete it or just get a whole new puzzle just because 1 piece didn't fit as expected?
It is complicated because random guy on internet has 0 responsibility and it doesn't matter if random guy on internet gets it completely wrong. Random guy on internet comes up with 1000 possible solutions and remembers only the solution that is closer to what's working and forgets the 999 mistakes.
That's not same for manager who should think so many possibilities before making any decision.
Also it's not true that Ole stuck to 1 formation. We played 3-5-2, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 (diamond) last season but played 4-2-3-1 in most games.
I like Ole and appreciate what he is doing but I think you are being overly lenient with the consistency bit and are underestimating the power of momentum. Beating Chelsea after PSG would have given us a huge lift but failing to do so is not terminal though.
The positives for me are the improvements we have seen from Rashford, Martial, Fred and Scot. Bringing in Bruno was great for the team and also despite a few wobbles the defense is stable, though we could do with more at CB.
What you term a great betrayal is what almost every manager goes through. When you look at Madrid, their aging squad and thin forward line you'd understand that not every manager gets what they want when they want it especially in the middle of the pandemic.
The trick lies in getting some solutions from within and picking up some great bargains. Given how the COVID situation is panning out it seems Woodward and co were right in being conservative in the market, I just don't agree with how they went about it because it feels like they strung Ole and the fans along only to ambush them at the end. The Sancho debacle was clear sabotage, I think if they had told him that it wasn't happening early on then he would have had time to adjust by maybe going for Grealish who we could afford if we hadn't signed Van Der Beek.
But we are here now and the team has shown its abilities from pre lockdown and in Europe recently. He has to find a way to break the slide in the league and get some consistent results otherwise the league form will cost him because I don't think other teams will allow us to chase them down like we did last season.
You forgot Longstaff.
Ole's real test is consistently winning games that we are expected to win starting today.
Yes, points does lie.
Points from one season could be lesser but still a better result and achievment, than another season. Lets say you have a really tough league with 20 teams wich is equally good, and every team usually win their home game and loose their away game. Every team would get 57 points. If your team then manage to win an away game once, you get 60 points and win the league. Those 60 points and first position is a better achievement, than getting 66 points and third place like we did last season. So points do lie.
And you can only play the opposition you face. You might be the second best team in the league, and then the next season you have great progress and get a lot more points than the year befor, without the final position being any better (because the best team also have got more points). You might even get more points than winning team got last year, when they won the league, and still get second place.
So points does lie : )
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Oh not another "real test". We have shown that we can be consistent, and we have shown that we can beat the lesser sides. Its more than enough.
To challenge city/liverpool we need a more complete squad (new fast left cb, a younger world class dm, a big quality striker - different alternative to Martial, and a right winger. With a complete squad and more deepth, so we can rotate the players, Ole will win us the premier league.
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Him too
Left winger? We got rashford there, we need someone on the right unless we will start playing diamond more often.
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